Jesus?

[OnelovedbyJesus]

I am learning about the Mormon religion and was wondering what the identity of Jesus was? specificly? and what was His purpose?

[LeSellers]

I am learning about the Mormon religion and was wondering what the identity of Jesus was? specificly? and what was His purpose?

Any comprehensive answer to this question would take weeks to read, and far longer to write.

He is the First Born of all Creation, the One chosen to redeem the rest of God's children.

He was the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, born of Mary in Bethlehem at the land of Jerusalem during the reign of Caesar Augustus while Cyrenius was governor of Judae. After a thirty-three-year life and three-year ministry, He was illegally tried, and condemned to die by the hand of Roman soldiers who knew not what they were doing, but who testified of Him the He was God. He was laid in a borrowed tomb and, during the time His body lay there, went, in His spirit to preach to the unrighteous in spirit prison so they could repent and receive Him as Lord and King. At the end of three days, He rose from the dead by the power of God, and opened the gates of hell for all mankind and, having paid the price of sin for all who would repent, He offered salvation to all who accept Him as Savior and Redeemer.

Before His birth, He was known as Jehovah, the God of Israel, and revealed the Law to Moses, appeared to a myriad of prophets and kings. He created the universe at His Father's command and placed mankind upon this and many earths throughout His creation.

For additional detail, see the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Lehi

Edited April 3, 2012 by LeSellers

[Kenngo1969]

Any comprehensive answer to this question would take weeks to read, and far longer to write.

He is the First Born of all Creation, the One chosen to redeem the rest of God's children.

He was the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, born of Mary in Bethlehem at the land of Jerusalem during the reign of Caesar Augustus while Cyrenius was governor of Judae. After a thirty-three-year ministry, He was illegally tried, and condemned to die by the hand of Roman soldiers who knew not what they were doing, but who testified of Him the He was God. He was laid in a borrowed tomb and, during the time His body lay there, went, in His spirit to preach to the unrighteous in spirit prison so they could repent and receive Him as Lord and King. At the end of three days, He rose from the dead by the power of God, and opened the gates of hell for all mankind and, having paid the price of sin for all who would repent, He offered salvation to all who accept Him as Savior and Redeemer.

Before His birth, He was known as Jehovah, the God of Israel, and revealed the Law to Moses, appeared to a myriad of prophets and kings. He created the universe at His Father's command and placed mankind upon this and many earths throughout His creation.

For additional detail, see the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Lehi

Oh, yeah? Well your Jesus is still diffurnt from my Jesus, Lehi!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am learning about the Mormon religion and was wondering what the identity of Jesus was? specificly? and what was His purpose?

He is JEHOVAH of the OT, he is the God that led Israel out of bondage, he is the resurrection and the life. There is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved. We are save by his grace alone.

[LeSellers]

Oh, yeah? Well your Jesus is still diffurnt from my Jesus, Lehi!

I know, but I wanted to lay the case open completely, lest anyone, especially "OnelovedbyJesus", complain we hide what we believe about Christ.

I did forget, because to me so obvious, He is my Lord and my God. We often forget the most important since it's so close to us.

Lehi

[OnelovedbyJesus]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

[Calm]

A Savior and Leader Was Needed

• 
  Why did we need to leave Heavenly Father’s presence? Why do we need a Savior?
  

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27).Jesus Christ, who was called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27; see also Moses 4:1–4).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 207).

Jesus Christ Became Our Chosen Leader and Savior

• As you read this section, think about the feelings you have for the Savior.
  

After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, “I will send the first” (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus Christ was chosen and foreordained to be our Savior. Many scriptures tell about this (see, for example, 1 Peter 1:19–20; Moses 4:1–2). One scripture tells us that long before Jesus was born, He appeared to a Book of Mormon prophet known as the brother of Jared and said: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. … In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name” (Ether 3:14).

When Jesus lived on earth, He taught: “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. … And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:38, 40).

The War in Heaven

Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus Christ and His followers. The Savior’s followers “overcame [satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11).

In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. A third part of the hosts of heaven were punished for following Satan (see D&C 29:36). They were denied the right to receive mortal bodies.

Because we are here on earth and have mortal bodies, we know that we chose to follow Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. Satan and his followers are also on the earth, but as spirits. They have not forgotten who we are, and they are around us daily, tempting us and enticing us to do things that are not pleasing to our Heavenly Father. In our premortal life, we chose to follow Jesus Christ and accept God’s plan. We must continue to follow Jesus Christ here on earth. Only by following Him can we return to our heavenly home.

• In what ways does the War in Heaven continue today?
  

We Have the Savior’s Teachings to Follow

• Think about how the Savior’s teachings have influenced you.
  

From the beginning, Jesus Christ has revealed the gospel, which tells us what we must do to return to our Heavenly Father. At the appointed time He came to earth Himself. He taught the plan of salvation and exaltation by His word and by the way He lived. He established His Church and His priesthood on the earth. He took our sins upon Himself.

By following His teachings, we can inherit a place in the celestial kingdom. He did His part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation.

Additional Scriptures

• Moses 4:1–4; Abraham 3:22–28 (Savior chosen in premortality)
  
• D&C 76:25–29 (War in Heaven)
  
• Revelation 12:7–9, 11 (Savior’s followers in the War in Heaven overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony)
  
• Isaiah 14:12–15 (why Lucifer was cast out)
  

http://www.lds.org/m...savior?lang=eng

Edited April 4, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Chapter 1: Our Father in Heaven

"Chapter 1: Our Father in Heaven," Gospel Principles, (2009)

There Is a God

• What are some things that testify to you that there is a God?

For teachers: Use questions at the beginning of a section to start a discussion and send class members or family members to the text to find more information. Use questions at the end of a section to help class members or family members ponder and discuss the meaning of what they have read and apply it in their lives.

Alma, a Book of Mormon prophet, wrote, “All things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator” (Alma 30:44). We can look up at the sky at night and have an idea of what Alma meant. There are millions of stars and planets, all in perfect order. They did not get there by chance. We can see the work of God in the heavens and on the earth. The many beautiful plants, the many kinds of animals, the mountains, the rivers, the clouds that bring us rain and snow—all these testify to us that there is a God.

The prophets have taught us that God is the Almighty Ruler of the universe. God dwells in heaven (see D&C 20:17). Through His Son, Jesus Christ, He created the heavens and the earth and all things that are in them (see 3 Nephi 9:15; Moses 2:1). He made the moon, the stars, and the sun. He organized this world and gave it form, motion, and life. He filled the air and the water with living things. He covered the hills and plains with all kinds of animal life. He gave us day and night, summer and winter, seedtime and harvest. He made man in His own image to be a ruler over His other creations (see Genesis 1:26–27).

God is the Supreme and Absolute Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is “the Great Parent of the universe,” and He “looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 39).

The Nature of God

• What are some of God’s attributes?

Because we are made in His image (see Moses 2:26; 6:9), we know that our bodies are like His body. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.

God is perfect. He is a God of righteousness, with attributes such as love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness.

All good things come from God. Everything that He does is to help His children become like Him. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

• Why is it important for us to understand the nature of God?

Coming to Know God

• How can we come to know God?

Knowing God is so important that the Savior said, “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3).

The first and greatest commandment is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart” (Matthew 22:37).

The more we know God, the more we love Him and keep His commandments (see 1 John 2:3–5). By keeping His commandments we can become like Him.

We can know God if we will:

1. Believe that He exists and that He loves us (see Mosiah 4:9).

2. Study the scriptures (see 2 Timothy 3:14–17).

3. Pray to Him (see James 1:5).

4. Obey all His commandments as best we can (see John 14:21–23).

As we do these things, we will come to know God and eventually have eternal life.

• Ponder what you can do to draw nearer to God.

Additional Scriptures

• Acts 7:55–56 (Son at the right hand of the Father)

• D&C 88:41–44 (attributes of God)

• Psalm 24:1 (the earth is the Lord’s)

• Moses 1:30–39 (Creation)

• Alma 7:20 (God cannot do wrong)

• Joseph Smith—History 1:17 (Father and Son are separate beings)

• Alma 5:40 (good comes from God)

• John 14:6–9 (Son and Father are alike)

• Mormon 9:15–20 (God of miracles)

• Amos 3:7 (God of revelation)

• John 3:16 (God of love)

Edited April 4, 2012 by calmoriah

[KevinG]

http://mormon.org/jesus-christ/

All of www.Mormon.org is a great place to learn our basic beliefs.

[Calm]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

He is a completely different person. Whether or not he is a completely different "God" depends on how you define "God". We do not believe that God the Father and God the Son are of the same substance, different persons but the same being. We do believe that God is one in the sense given in the quote below:

Through the course of the Savior’s ministry, the disciples did indeed become one but not in their physical bodies. They became one in unity of purpose and love. This is the oneness of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, spoken of in the scriptures. They too are distinct beings, but They are united in purpose, in Their love for us, and in the work They are doing on our behalf.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/gaining-a-testimony-of-god-the-father-his-son-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng&query=%22oneness+of+god%22

[LeSellers]

according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

What does "completely different God" mean in this context?

He is not God the Father, so, in that sense He is a different God.

He is one in mind and will as God the Father, so, in that sense, They are one.

The question seems to suppose that you believe the doctrine of the Trinity is supported by the Bible. Anyone who reads that into the text is not reading it as it was written, but reading into the text what the prophets who wrote it did not inscribe.

Lehi

[TAO]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

Yeah, he's a different person, that is, he has a different spirit. But, he's just as much God as Heavenly Father is.

Oh, and he's just as awesome too. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus are awesome =).

Edited April 4, 2012 by TAO

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

Jesus made that clear in the Bible when he said, "there is none good but he that sent me". "They" are "one God" by definition, but hold different titles.

John 17 makes it clear what "one" means.

[followerofemmanuel]

"He is not God the Father, so, in that sense He is a different God. "He is one in mind and will as God the Father, so, in that sense, They are one." Lehi

"Yeah, he's a different person, that is, he has a different spirit. But, he's just as much God as Heavenly Father is. Oh, and he's just as awesome too. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus are awesome =)." TAO

Now I am in on the conversation simply because I am really confused (it does not take much!). When you think of God as described in the scriptures below, how do you understand who God is to be? Am I correct then (If I understand your understanding) that Jesus is not part of the God head (therefor not God) but one in spirit (like partnered in mission) with God. If I am wrong in this understanding, how does Jesus fit in with the God in your view. If possible keep the explanation as simple as possible as I am not the academic type. I am asking to understand your views not to debate. I was totally lost in the other thread dealing with the Trinity. Thanks

1. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
   
2. "‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
   
3. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
   
4. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
   
5. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
   
6. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
   
7. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
   
8. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
   

Edited April 4, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[HiJolly]

It would help to gain some context for these scriptures. In the Ancient Near East (ANE) every people had gods. Israel's God was understood to by completely different, and these scriptures emphasize that.

Take the first scripture. Notice the word 'formed'. This points out the context of creation, in light of 'other gods'. So a transcendent God (such as the Father) would not be included, nor would the fake gods of the surrounding peoples.

HiJolly

[ERayR]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

How are you defining God? Are you defining God as a person or a unity of purpose and power?

[TAO]

"He is not God the Father, so, in that sense He is a different God. "He is one in mind and will as God the Father, so, in that sense, They are one." Lehi

"Yeah, he's a different person, that is, he has a different spirit. But, he's just as much God as Heavenly Father is. Oh, and he's just as awesome too. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus are awesome =)." TAO

Now I am in on the conversation simply because I am really confused (it does not take much!). When you think of God as described in the scriptures below, how do you understand who God is to be? Am I correct then (If I understand your understanding) that Jesus is not part of the God head (therefor not God) but one in spirit (like partnered in mission) with God. If I am wrong in this understanding, how does Jesus fit in with the God in your view. If possible keep the explanation as simple as possible as I am not the academic type. I am asking to understand your views not to debate. I was totally lost in the other thread dealing with the Trinity. Thanks

1. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
   
2. "‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
   
3. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
   
4. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
   
5. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
   
6. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
   
7. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
   
8. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
   

It depends on the context. God in the scriptures, sometimes refers to one, or to the other, or sometimes even to both, I believe.

Jesus is part of the Godhead (that consists of Heavenly Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit), but, he isn't the same person that Heavenly Father is. They have different spirits - kind of like how me and you have different Spirits. However, both Father and Christ want the same thing.

If you have ever attended one of our meetings, you will notice that there is the 'Bishop' and the 'Bishopric'. The Bishop is the guy responsible for the entire ward (congreagation). However, he is one of three members of the 'Bishopric' - the other's being the first and second counselor. This organization of leadership was, in part, based on the Godhead - you have Heavenly Father who is in charge, and he is one of three members of the Godhead. Then you have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, which, would correlate to the ward positions of First and Second Counselor. Together, with Christ and the Holy Spirit, Heavenly Father forms the Godhead. Together, with his First and Second counselor, the Bishop forms the Bishopric.

We believe Christ and the Father are one in purpose, and one in goal, and as the Pearl of Great Price puts it "of one heart, and one mind". That is, they don't disagree with each other. So 'one in spirit' in terms of that definition of spirit, yes. But as of 'spirit' as meaning 'soul', no, we believe they have different souls - they aren't the same individual person. Rather, they are people working in unity. Or something along those lines.

And don't worry 'bout asking... 'tis a complex question. There are so many opinions on the issue... well... I'd struggle to know ever person's possible opinion, I would say XD.

As for those verses, I would say they either refer to the whole Godhead, or they refer to Jesus Christ. There is a great concept taught in the D&C called 'stewardship' - which means to take care of something for someone else. In talking of Jesus, it is important to remember that Christ is Heavenly Father's great steward - just as we are stewards for Christ in his kingdom. I think that verse may be applicable to the concept of stewardship.

In any case, the scriptures tend to switch around a bit between whom they are referring to with God. Some even imply 'Gods' in the plural. So it isn't really a straight forward issue, if you were to just base it off of what the Bible says. A lot of what we believe comes from further revelation, which clarifies some of the things that some groups disagree about in the Bible. That isn't to say the Bible isn't right or anything - it's just people disagree about what some things mean and such =). Revelation clears it up for us.

In any case, here's a good tidbit from the Bible Dictionary which helps explains some stuff, sort of what I am talking of, in case I wasn't too clear: http://www.lds.org/s...ng=eng&letter=g

Edited April 5, 2012 by TAO

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am learning about the Mormon religion and was wondering what the identity of Jesus was? specificly? and what was His purpose?

Interesting screen name; "we are all loved by Jesus". "If we have hope of Christ in this life only we are men most miserable".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

i am not interested in complaining about anything, now correct me if i am wrong, according to the mormon faith Jesus is a completly different God than God the Father?

This question is almost incoherent. Jesus is a different person and is entirely separate in his identity from the Father. It appears that you think they are the same person. Is Jesus a God? Yes. Is God the Father a God? Yes. Are they the same person? No. Do they make up the God head? Yes. Are they one God? Yes. In what way are they one though. That is the question. Are they metaphysically one? I don't believe so. You seem to think they are metaphysically one, or that they are of one substance (what ever that means no one will ever know).

[followerofemmanuel]

Thanks for taking the time to share resources and answering our questions!

Edited April 5, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[followerofemmanuel]

It depends on the context. God in the scriptures, sometimes refers to one, or to the other, or sometimes even to both, I believe.

Jesus is part of the Godhead (that consists of Heavenly Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit), but, he isn't the same person that Heavenly Father is. They have different spirits - kind of like how me and you have different Spirits. However, both Father and Christ want the same thing.

If you have ever attended one of our meetings, you will notice that there is the 'Bishop' and the 'Bishopric'. The Bishop is the guy responsible for the entire ward (congreagation). However, he is one of three members of the 'Bishopric' - the other's being the first and second counselor. This organization of leadership was, in part, based on the Godhead - you have Heavenly Father who is in charge, and he is one of three members of the Godhead. Then you have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, which, would correlate to the ward positions of First and Second Counselor. Together, with Christ and the Holy Spirit, Heavenly Father forms the Godhead. Together, with his First and Second counselor, the Bishop forms the Bishopric.

We believe Christ and the Father are one in purpose, and one in goal, and as the Pearl of Great Price puts it "of one heart, and one mind". That is, they don't disagree with each other. So 'one in spirit' in terms of that definition of spirit, yes. But as of 'spirit' as meaning 'soul', no, we believe they have different souls - they aren't the same individual person. Rather, they are people working in unity. Or something along those lines.

And don't worry 'bout asking... 'tis a complex question. There are so many opinions on the issue... well... I'd struggle to know ever person's possible opinion, I would say XD.

As for those verses, I would say they either refer to the whole Godhead, or they refer to Jesus Christ. There is a great concept taught in the D&C called 'stewardship' - which means to take care of something for someone else. In talking of Jesus, it is important to remember that Christ is Heavenly Father's great steward - just as we are stewards for Christ in his kingdom. I think that verse may be applicable to the concept of stewardship.

In any case, the scriptures tend to switch around a bit between whom they are referring to with God. Some even imply 'Gods' in the plural. So it isn't really a straight forward issue, if you were to just base it off of what the Bible says. A lot of what we believe comes from further revelation, which clarifies some of the things that some groups disagree about in the Bible. That isn't to say the Bible isn't right or anything - it's just people disagree about what some things mean and such =). Revelation clears it up for us.

In any case, here's a good tidbit from the Bible Dictionary which helps explains some stuff, sort of what I am talking of, in case I wasn't too clear: http://www.lds.org/s...ng=eng&letter=g

Thank you this was helpful

[TAO]

Thank you this was helpful

No prob. Glad to help. =)

[rpn]

Read "Jesus the Christ" by James E. Talmadge. It will teach you who He was.

[OnelovedbyJesus]

John 10:30-38

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus specifically said He and the Father are one. the greek word one in this context is translated to mean in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.

so i guess my question is i dont really understand how the greek word "hen" which is one when Jesus says "I and the Father are one" can be interpreted differently than what is plainly said?

not trying to start arguement merly a discussion.

[TAO]

Jesus specifically said He and the Father are one. the greek word one in this context is translated to mean in nature and essence, perfections, and particularly in power.

so i guess my question is i dont really understand how the greek word "hen" which is one when Jesus says "I and the Father are one" can be interpreted differently than what is plainly said?

not trying to start arguement merly a discussion.

I'll tell you what, like Nemesis said, this should be moved to General Discussion, so I'll create a thread for you there. Most likely you will get alot of good responses. =)

(I hope you don't mind me doing this Nemesis. If you do, sorry =p).