The Unwritten Order Of Things™

[DBMormon]

MFBukowski - nothing in there on brethren having to be concluding speakers. I am intimately familiar with both on the subject of sacrament meetings.

[Yep]

Upon reading through much of this thread I came to the conclusion that we are definitely not heading towards pharisaism (the over investigation/interpretation of the law.) I believe that if we were sitting with Christ and the first Twelve and someone suggested something like that Sacrament "must" be given first to the presiding authority there would have been a correction given. I may be completely off, but I don't feel that most of these are really following the spirit of the gospel as Christ taught it. Are we heading towards a time when we will only be able to travel the distance from our home to our ward house on the Sabbath?

By way of an example:

My son who was a teacher did not have a white shirt. We were very tight financially and splurging on another shirt so that he had a white shirt was a luxury we could not afford. Our Bishop told him he could not help prepare the Sacrament until he had one. We had not been active for a few years and were just coming back to Church and he had just barely decided that he felt worthy to help. This made him question his worthiness again.

[Nominee]

The Presiding High Priest is in charge of the Sacrament. It's his responsibility to assure that the ordinance is done correctly. It is through his authority that is is done in the first place. Bishops serve under the Stake President, and are operating through the latter's keys.

Ultimately all ordinances, including the Sacrament in each ward or even in homes for shut-ins, etc., are done under the authority of Thomas S. Monson and then up to Jesus Christ. He (or they) hold the keys to all Priesthood functions. We do them in His name under His direction, but through the living line of authority of those who hold the keys of the Priesthood.

Lehi

One of the most sacred moments in sacrament for me is when the priesthood holder giving the prayer then looks to the bishop for the okay before we proceed. The respect shown for the presiding priesthood authority means a lot to me and builds my testimony for the power of the priesthood each week.

~ Naomi

[mfbukowski]

Upon reading through much of this thread I came to the conclusion that we are definitely not heading towards pharisaism (the over investigation/interpretation of the law.) I believe that if we were sitting with Christ and the first Twelve and someone suggested something like that Sacrament "must" be given first to the presiding authority there would have been a correction given. I may be completely off, but I don't feel that most of these are really following the spirit of the gospel as Christ taught it. Are we heading towards a time when we will only be able to travel the distance from our home to our ward house on the Sabbath?

By way of an example:

My son who was a teacher did not have a white shirt. We were very tight financially and splurging on another shirt so that he had a white shirt was a luxury we could not afford. Our Bishop told him he could not help prepare the Sacrament until he had one. We had not been active for a few years and were just coming back to Church and he had just barely decided that he felt worthy to help. This made him question his worthiness again.

Your bishop unfortunately is human. Best wishes in finding anyone who is not.

Perhaps you should explain that to him and get a clothing order for a few white shirts- problem solved. And the presiding officer gets sacrament first. That IS in the manual.

[Nominee]

LOL. I make the bread in my ward every week, and the sisters demanded that I put the recipe in the cookbook our ward put out (yes, it's that good). About a year ago, a sister with celiac disease asked if she could just bring a rice cake in her purse to eat for the sacrament. I told her that it would need to be on the table to be blessed and broken, and she vigorously disagreed. She didn't want it to be a spectacle (the deacons would have to ensure that that tray went to her, and that nobody else ate her item), which made sense. She mentioned a bishop in another ward in the stake who allows "rice cake in a purse," since it's in the room when the prayer is said (so are all the Cheerios, right?) and provided me with a Deseret News article that talked about the "rice cake in the purse" approach. I told her that that was that bishop's call, but in our ward, the tokens needed to be blessed on the table.I tried a variety of gluten-free breads (garbanzo bean, rice, etc.) so that nobody was singled out ---- everybody would eat the same bread. All were worse than terrible ---- really, really bad. The sister told me to just go ahead and go back to normal bread again and she would just "take the smallest corner off of the smalles piece," but I needed to dispel the reputation that I make terrible bread, so I started bringing fresh french bread (I bake bread 3-5 times a week in my home, anyway, so it's not a big deal at all). Now, it's habit and routine.

The left-over bread is a favorite in the priest's quorum during the third hour . . .

By the way ---- the sister turns out not to have celiac disease after all, according to her. As I suspected all along, it was kind of a power struggle over her wanting to do "rice cake in a purse." There's no way we're going back to dollar loaves of bread now . . . I would have a riot on my hands . . .

May I have your recipe, PLEASE?

~ Naomi

[Nominee]

The gospel has the power to overcome our upbringing. In a very real sense, becoming the seed of Christ means relinquishing the traditions of our fathers, even the well meaning ones, and being re-parented.

*huge sigh* And praise the Lord for that!

[mfbukowski]

Nominee

Ironically neither Lehi nor Mercy have posted here recently so don't feel offended if your posts go unanswered.

[Nominee]

Nominee

Ironically neither Lehi nor Mercy have posted here recently so don't feel offended if your posts go unanswered.

Yeah I noticed I'm about 13 pages behind everyone else here. Ha ha! I have been wrapped up in another thread. I am trying not to post until I catch up but sometimes it gets the best of me and I just can't help it! Bear with me.

[Carborendum]

Three events with regard to written and unwritten orders pop out in my mind.

First, I was a missionary watching (not witnessing) the baptism of a Spanish speaking family. The elder performing the baptism was actually a Portuguese speaker, but was unpracticed in both the prayer and in Portuguese. I had enough French and Spanish background to recognize he was saying the prayer wrong. I went to the witnesses and the Bishop present and told them that he had said the prayer wrong. They waved me off saying that I didn't realize he was just speaking Portuguese instead of Spanish. I assured them that I understood better than they did. It went nowhere. In the end, I had to accept that I was not the one in authority to make any corrections to this.

Second, I was in the circle where a recently reactivated father was confirming his daughter. It became all to apparent that this father had been inactive far too long. He said,"I give you the Gift of the Holy Ghost". After the prayer was over, I told the bishop of the error. He just let it go for the time being so that things wouldn't be disturbed too much. But later, he called the father and daughter into his office and had him redo the confirmation with correct instruction.

Third, one teacher showed up to prepare the sacrament. I was the quorum instructor. The teacher asked me to help prepare it. We had set the bread out and were in the process of getting the water out when I found one of the YM counselors removing several pieces of bread from the trays and putting them back in the bag. There was quite an altercation between the teacher and the counselor. While I agreed with the counselor's reasoning for using fewer pieces of bread, I saw his act as putting forth his hand to steady the ark. So, I supported the teacher's decision to replace the bread back on the trays.

The YM president has no keys of the priesthood and therefore cannot direct any changes. Yet he took it upon himself to do so. In the next class, I expressed the need to have a true priesthood quorum meeting with instruction rather than just a business meeting. I read from the CHI. I explained to the quorum president what had happened. He agreed with the counselor and gave instructions to follow that counsel in the future. That may have made him feel vindicated. But the point was made that he had gone about it the wrong way.

[mfbukowski]

We are taught in the temple that we should correct the patrons once with kindness if they make errors in repeating the correct words and then let it go.

We are also taught that the Lord makes up for such errors and it is better to act in kindness and with the spirit than to get it "right" with a spirit of rancor.

[CASteinman]

Upon reading through much of this thread I came to the conclusion that we are definitely not heading towards pharisaism (the over investigation/interpretation of the law.) I believe that if we were sitting with Christ and the first Twelve and someone suggested something like that Sacrament "must" be given first to the presiding authority there would have been a correction given. I may be completely off, but I don't feel that most of these are really following the spirit of the gospel as Christ taught it. Are we heading towards a time when we will only be able to travel the distance from our home to our ward house on the Sabbath?

By way of an example:

My son who was a teacher did not have a white shirt. We were very tight financially and splurging on another shirt so that he had a white shirt was a luxury we could not afford. Our Bishop told him he could not help prepare the Sacrament until he had one. We had not been active for a few years and were just coming back to Church and he had just barely decided that he felt worthy to help. This made him question his worthiness again.

I am assuming that it was a mistype when you said "we are definitely not heading toward pharisaism". I think you meant that we actually are heading toward it. Otherwise your post confuses me.

But I want to let you know something.. this is the Official Doctrine of the LDS Church on the matter of white shirts and the Sacrament.

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance.

Now that is not a license to wear just ANYTHING. There will be limits. I don't think you could come in a wifebeater and overalls and expect to pass the Sacrament most of the time. But you might want to mention this passage of Volume 2 of the Handbook of Instructions to your Bishop. You might also ask him to help you with a white shirt.

If he doesn't... please contact me.

Edited June 9, 2012 by CASteinman

[Nominee]

Once in the temple an ordinance worker had her name on upside down. I told her quietly as she took my hand and she smiled, corrected it, and gratefully thanked me. I would hope that I might also have this ability to simply be humble and grateful when receiving any good correction. It usually helps me to be a little better at whatever I am trying to accomplish. Humility is the good stuff.

~ Naomi

[DBMormon]

Once in the temple an ordinance worker had her name on upside down. I told her quietly as she took my hand and she smiled, corrected it, and gratefully thanked me. I would hope that I might also have this ability to simply be humble and grateful when receiving any good correction. It usually helps me to be a little better at whatever I am trying to accomplish. Humility is the good stuff.

When one is wrong.... absolutely. But too often we are told to do things that are not part of the church or it's actual Doctrine. Ijn those cases we need to stand firm against false teachings and practices

[Yep]

I am assuming that it was a mistype when you said "we are definitely not heading toward pharisaism". I think you meant that we actually are heading toward it. Otherwise your post confuses me.

Ahh, no, it was just a small amount of sarcasm.

[KevinG]

My son who was a teacher did not have a white shirt. We were very tight financially and splurging on another shirt so that he had a white shirt was a luxury we could not afford.

As a father of rapidly growing boys who has been out of work for a year I have some suggestions that may help you. It involves some humility and a small shot to the ego if you are not used to asking for help but here are a few suggestions:

- Ask other members for outgrown white shirts that your son can use.

- Ask the Bishop for a voucher for DI or Goodwill or the equivalent in your area.

- Spend 3-5 dollars on a white shirt from the DI or Goodwill

[ksfisher]

As a father of rapidly growing boys who has been out of work for a year I have some suggestions that may help you. It involves some humility and a small shot to the ego if you are not used to asking for help but here are a few suggestions:

- Ask other members for outgrown white shirts that your son can use.

- Ask the Bishop for a voucher for DI or Goodwill or the equivalent in your area.

- Spend 3-5 dollars on a white shirt from the DI or Goodwill

Handbook 2 Section 20.4.1 states the following:

"Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate."

I personally find poor grooming to be more distracting than the lack of a white shirt.

[Grundelwalken]

what is it called when a false teaching or false doctrine makes it's way itno the church and seems to hang around because it sounds right or seems to have always been done that way and yet is false. I was thinking there was a name for it.

I think the Book of Mormon called it "foolish traditions of the fathers". MW

[Grundelwalken]

When i was in high school, i remember there being a bit of an uproar in my ward in wyoming because 'someone' (I honestly dont' remember if the directive came from the bishop, the stake, or SLC) declared that women could not give closing prayers in sacrament meeting.

Apparently that teaching didn't stick, because i've been in lots of wards where women give the benediction all the time.

Oh, it stuck pretty well where I have lived and took a letter from the First Presidency to be removed from those foolish traditions. MW

[CASteinman]

I think the Book of Mormon called it "foolish traditions of the fathers". MW

Seems, as I recall, that was what the Lamanites said of the true and good doctrines.

[Scott Lloyd]

Seems, as I recall, that was what the Lamanites said of the true and good doctrines.

And wasn't it a favorite phrase of the prominent anti-Christs?