Obedience To Leaders

[Duncan]

I learned the hard way that I'll do something if I want to do it and not because someone else wants me to do it, so i'll listen to what leaders have to say but i'll follow my thinking and the spirit because I and not them have to live with the consequences

[Damien the Leper]

It matters a great deal.

The statement is a litmus test for faith. Not faith in the men God put in any position, but faith that God would put the right man in the right place at the right time to do the right thing.

Those who find such a statement ignorant do not understand the power and burden of Priesthood keys.

Lehi

Priesthood keys vs. obedience statements? Really?!? Come on... If anyone is to have faith it should be only in God and his ability to direct all his creation individually.

[Damien the Leper]

The "thinking world" also, by and large, doesn't believe in prophets. Or if they do - only the long dead ones.

That's a matter of what someone considers to be relevant.

[Damien the Leper]

I don't see how one's vomiting at something he does not understand (yet peceives as ignorant) is not related to his ignorance.

What's there to understand? A presumed world bearing responsibility? Riiiggghhhtt.

[Damien the Leper]

I learned the hard way that I'll do something if I want to do it and not because someone else wants me to do it, so i'll listen to what leaders have to say but i'll follow my thinking and the spirit because I and not them have to live with the consequences

This, I'm good with. This shows serious discernment. My sister once told me that she doesn't live the Word of Wisdom because she's told to or because it's a commandment to have a temple recommend. She actually said it has nothing to do with the church at all. She lives it because did the research and decided for herself the type of diet to have and what substances to avoid.

[KevinG]

Isn't polgamy one that fits into the "illegal" category?

It wasn't illegal when it started. It was made illegal by the congress before it was stopped.

[Ares]

The mere fact that such a childishly audacious statement came into circulation is enough to make the thinking world vomit.

This thread is for grownups. You are excused.

[cdowis]

This, I'm good with. This shows serious discernment. My sister once told me that she doesn't live the Word of Wisdom because she's told to or because it's a commandment to have a temple recommend. She actually said it has nothing to do with the church at all. She lives it because did the research and decided for herself the type of diet to have and what substances to avoid.

I agree that it has nothing to do with the church, or even with our health. It is a matter of obedience, whether we will obey God, or not.

[KevinG]

If we know something to be wrong we counsel with our leaders. I have more than once given counsel to a Bishop privately then stood back and willingly followed his counsel when the matter was settled.

In the cases where he took my information and changed his mind I hope I was truly right.

In the cases where he didn't and I obeyed anyway I was blessed with a certainty that I did all I could.

In many cases I was shown he was correct and I wasn't and I was blessed for obedience.

In those cases where he was wrong and I obeyed anyway - that is where the grace of God covers my accountability and rewards my dedication to the Lord's House of Order.

We're not exactly talking hiding child murderes or committing genocide here - these difficult decisions usually come from more mundane decisions and a well ordered church organization is more effective at spreading the Gospel than a hen house full of second guessers.

Gohan's Joseph F Smith quote bears repeating:

Joseph F. Smith said on September 3, 1892,

"Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil."

From Joseph F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

and I raise you a Brigham

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inqure for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (Brigham Young, JOD 9:150)

Le is correct- understanding priesthood keys is key to understanding obedience the Lord and His servants.

Now how about the CFR for an example of when the church members were led astray by following their leaders?

[Sky]

This, I'm good with. This shows serious discernment. My sister once told me that she doesn't live the Word of Wisdom because she's told to or because it's a commandment to have a temple recommend. She actually said it has nothing to do with the church at all. She lives it because did the research and decided for herself the type of diet to have and what substances to avoid.

Using that mindset, you could also justify an occasional glass of wine or cup of coffee or tea because some say it's good for you. This attitude amounts to nothing more than "I'll do what I want to do and who gives a d*** about the Church or prophets or scriptures or temple recommends! I don't need them! I can figure it out myself!"

Not to mention that before there was any research available, the Word of Wisdom still said that tobacco was not for the body.

[Verum]

Not quite.

As long as the question of the constitutionality of the law was in play, obeying an immoral law, like the anti-bigamy/polygamy laws, is not doing something illegal. 20/20 hindsight is not a good way of judging the past.

I don't think legality should be a factor in determining whether to follow church authority since the constitutionality or validity of certain laws can always be in dispute...

Your insinuation is that they have. I invite you to give us any reasonable reference to such a request.

I am not saying they have, I am saying it is relative. For example, if the priesthood ban on blacks was God sanctioned, it is not immoral. But if was not God sanctioned, or was a result of mans flawed understanding or personal prejudices, it would be immoral (as some would see it).

[LDSToronto]

Hey, LDSToronto, speaking of obedience, be sure to keep us updated with your NFS login.

Start another thread if you want to discuss this topic, rather than derailing this one. I will answer all questions there.

H.

[Deborah]

I wonder how many church leaders who have passed the veil cringe at how we use their words today to prove our own agenda or to make an issue or to defend our own lack of faith. Too bad they aren't here to explain further.

[Duncan]

I wonder how many church leaders who have passed the veil cringe at how we use their words today to prove our own agenda or to make an issue or to defend our own lack of faith. Too bad they aren't here to explain further.

I have had those same thoughts too, I think it was Joseph Smith who said the Holy Ghost is the oldest book, which to me means that we need to ponder what he is saying to us today, yestarday and tomorrow

[LDSToronto]

First, the quote is from an unsigned article in the 13 November 1852 Millennial Star, not from Joseph Smith at all (link). (I'm a professional historian; these things matter to me.)

I'm not a professional historian. Thanks for the correction.

H.

[cinepro]

On the other hand, Pres. Marion G. Romney said, in Fall 1960 General Conference, "Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it...."

This statement is cited 64 times on the lds.org website. It is found in the Ensign (multiple times), in CES manuals, and in the Aaronic Priesthood manual.

As far as I can tell, every current talk, article or curriculum published by the Church teaches 100% obedience to Church leaders (with no preference given between "faith" obedience and "blind" obedience).

In other words, it is never even acknowledged (even in theory) that there could be a situation where a Church member might be justified in not following a Prophet or Apostle.

Statements from the Times and Seasons and apologetic arguments are great, but when it comes to "obedience" in the Church, the concept of "justified disobedience" just doesn't exist.

Edited March 14, 2012 by cinepro

[CV75]

Statements from the Times and Seasons and apologetic arguments are great, but when it comes to "obedience" in the Church, the concept of "justified disobedience" just doesn't exist.

I beleive this is because, In a spiritual sense, obedience means doing God’s will. Obeying His leaders who obey Him amounts to the same thing. Anyone who has made covenants with God would obey accordingly, especially if he is using the Gift of the Holy Ghost to the best of his ability.

Edited March 14, 2012 by CV75

[cinepro]

As long a they don't ask me to do anything illegal, unethical or immoral I have no reason to question them.

By what standard of ethics or morality would you judge the counsel of Prophets and Apostles?

[cdowis]

Start another thread if you want to discuss this topic, rather than derailing this one. I will answer all questions there.

Sorry, I thought this thread was about obedience.

[LDSToronto]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about obedience.

It is. But my logon credentials to NFS has nothing to do with obedience. Like I said, if you are curious I will answer you openly and honestly on a relevant thread.

H.

[zerinus]

By what standard of ethics or morality would you judge the counsel of Prophets and Apostles?

Can you give an example from Church history, or from your own experience, when a Prophet or Apostle has commanded a Church member to do something that was manifestly wrong?

[zerinus]

delete

Edited March 15, 2012 by zerinus

[Saints Alive]

By what standard of ethics or morality would you judge the counsel of Prophets and Apostles?

that's the trick isn't it. I suppose that ultimately it is up to your own judgement and decernment / the decernment of the spirit.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'm not a professional historian. Thanks for the correction.

No worries. As I've discovered personally, obtaining a PhD often has more to do with being pedantic and persistent than with being genuinely intelligent....

[KevinG]

It is. But my logon credentials to NFS has nothing to do with obedience. Like I said, if you are curious I will answer you openly and honestly on a relevant thread.

H.

Quite right... I will start a thread on repercussions of New Family Search restrictions.