Cobalt-70 Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 I just reread the King Follett discourse and summarised its themes:God is [note: not was] a man.The first principle of the gospel is to know the character of God, that we can converse with him as one man does with another.God, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.Like Jesus, the Father had power in himself to lay down his life and take it up again.We must learn to be Gods ourselves—to be kings and priests to God.The dead will rise to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus.Christ’s kingdom further exalts the Father’s glory.In the beginning, the head God brought forth a council of Gods.Creation did not occur ex nihilo because matter cannot be destroyed, only reorganised.Like God, the spirits of men are self-existing and therefore immortal.Being greater than the spirits of men, God instituted laws which would enable men to advance toward his greatness—in glory, knowledge and power.We must seek after our dead so that they may have salvation in common with us.In the end, all those who do not commit the unpardonable sin will be saved through Jesus Christ.Those who will not be redeemed have the same spirit as those who sought to kill Christ; the same spirit motivated those who sought to kill Joseph.Be careful because the desire to shed blood is never of God but of the devil.We have great reason to have hope and consolation for our dead.Yep, that's pretty much the same 'caricature' one will find in The Godmakers or in one of Bill Maher's rants. Part of the "caricature"--most notably the part about Celestial women getting pregnant and giving birth to spirit babies, and the part about God having sex with Mary--was added by Brigham Young. These parts of the "caricature" were very much part of 19th century and early 20th century Mormon theology, up until a few decades ago when the LDS Church started first de-emphasizing the "caricature" for proselytizing purposes, and then replacing it with a slightly more Protestant theology as described by church spokespeople and by revised LDS manuals. Despite the change, however, most Mormons I know still believe the fundamentals of this "caricature." But that will eventually change after a couple of generations so long as the "official" explanations of LDS theology retain their quasi-Protestant form.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Part of the "caricature"--most notably the part about Celestial women getting pregnant and giving birth to spirit babies, and the part about God having sex with Mary--was added by Brigham Young.So we could evaluate it for ourselves, perhaps you could link to or cite for us the specific quotations where Brigham Young said these things. And properly cited with primary sources, of course, so we can see it in context.Meanwhile, consider this article from FAIR on this topic.Or this one. Edited March 15, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Your statement: "not was" is patently false. He stated God was a man twice.The point of my intentionally bracketed comment was not to de-emphasise the was but to draw particular attention to the is. The 'great secret', as BY referred to it, is that God and man are of the same kind, and therefore one can interact with the Father as he would with any other man. So many of the South Park-style caricatures focus on God's having once been a man whilst ignoring the all-important point that that is precisely what He has always been and still is: 'First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man...' (emphasis added).So if I were to summarize Smith: God was once a man like us.God is still a man like us.BTW, care to point out the 'inaccuracies' in the rest of my summary? Edited March 14, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan
Jaybear Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 God is still a man like us.Nope. God is an exalted man. We are not. God was a man like us. The term "was" has an important and relevant meaning.
Grundelwalken Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 God was a man like us.Methinks you got it!!! Way to come around. MW
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) God was a man like us.You seem to have a particular distaste for the Prophet's own words: 'First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret.' Edited March 15, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan
Cobalt-70 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 So we could evaluate it for ourselves, perhaps you could link to or cite for us the specific quotations where Brigham Young said these things. And properly cited with primary sources, of course, so we can see it in context."Spirit babies" doctrine:"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns--have become Gods...they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 275)God "created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." Journal of Discourses 11:122.Joseph Smith never taught this doctrine. In the King Follett sermon, he taught that the spirits of men and women are never born, and could not possibly be born, because they are co-eternal with God."God had sex with Mary" doctrine:Brigham Young: "I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said He did, and begat the Savior of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the FAther, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person" (followed by an explanation of how God has body parts the same as mortals, and is capable of performing bodily functions such as eating and drinking). (Journal of Discourses 1:238)Brigham Young: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father [i.e., Adam], as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses 8: 115)Brigham Young: "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it." (Journal of Discourses 4:218)Brigham Young: After stating that God placed romantic desire within woman's nature, he stated, "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband....That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being." Then he launched directly into a discussion about the virtues of polygamy. Journal of Discourses 11:268I thought I would include a sampling of later references to this doctrine, to show that this doctrine was widely accepted among Mormons at least until the 1980s:Orson Pratt: "the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife." (The Seer, p. 158)James E. Talmage: "[Jesus] was conceived and begotten in the normal way..." (Jesus the Christ, p. 43)Joseph F. Smith: "How are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ as begotten of the father." (1972 Family Home Evening Manual, p. 125)Bruce R. McConkie: "[Jesus] was born in the same personal, real, literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 742)Ezra Taft Benson: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7)Encyclopedia of Mormonism: "For Latter-day Saints, the paternity of Jesus is not obscure. He was the literal, biological son of an immortal, tangible Father and Mary, a mortal woman." (vol. 2, Jesus Christ, Fatherhood and Sonship)
Scott Lloyd Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Thank you.I think these citations are answered by the links to the FAIR articles I gave in my last post including this conclusion: ConclusionCritics of the Church like to dig up quotes like those from Brigham Young for their shock value, but such statements do not represent the official doctrine of the Church. Furthermore, critics often read statements through their own theological lenses, and ignore the key distinctions which LDS theology is attempting to make by these statements. Instead, they try to put a salacious spin on the teaching, when this is far from the speakers' intent. The key, official doctrine of the Church is that Jesus is literally the son of God (i.e., this is not a symbolic or figurative expression), and Mary was a virgin before and after Christ's conception.I would add that the very wording "the virgin birth" of Christ in and of itself sustains the above conclusion. Edited March 16, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
BCSpace Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 I disagree. Where we are going is the point entirely. And knowing God is a requirement for eternal life.What misses the point, I meant to say, is to say anything specific about exaltation. There is something far more about becoming like God than we realize. But this is just my opinion. You are free to believe as you wish and to share those beliefs, and I will defend your right to do so.My opinion is that we know many many specifics about Godhood, not just from our own experience we are gaining here, but from the words and actions of God HImself.
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Personally - I believe we will become gods - little gWe will spend eternity serving and worshipping God - he will always be our God - we will never be his peers. I do not believe we will ever be Gods over our own planets, but rather participate in Heavenly Fathers continued creation of worlds.Then you are unaware of the LDS Teachings or you are simply lying.....Do not call other posters liars. That is a banning offense.Do not proselyte. Posts that serve no other purpose will be or have been removed.Do not post again until you read the board guidelines. Edited March 16, 2012 by Minos
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Unlike Christianity, Mormons are taught that their are 3 personages,, they are, God the father, Jesus Christ and the Holy ghost.... Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is GOD in body.... big difference...Mormons claim that they are Christians yet their view of God is different.... How can one be a Christian and yet not follow Christian teachings?
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Mormons are not taught Christianity, they are taught Mormonism and then told that they are Christians....
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Thank you.I think these citations are answered by the links to the FAIR articles I gave in my last post including this conclusion:I would add that the very wording "the virgin birth" of Christ in and of itself sustains the above conclusion.Are you saying that IF you were a Mormon during the time of Brigham Young You would not follow and accempt his Doctrins/Teachings such as Blood atonment, Adam God, NO man can become Gods with out practicing polygamy.... Brigham Young also stated that his sermons were considered Doctrine, You can run from umpleasent Momron History, but you cannot hide from it.....BChrist751@aol.com
selek1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Mormons are not taught Christianity, they are taught Mormonism and then told that they are Christians....I was born non-deniminational, grew up in a family that was largely Salvation Army, joined the Baptists, then the Nazarenes, then the Methodists.I've researched and worshipped alongside Catholics, Presbyterians, Calvinists, and Universalists.The ONLY commonalities between them?They each claim to worship Christ and think they and they alone hold a monopoly on "true Christian" teachings.Mormons are no less Christian than any of the sects previously mentioned.We Mormons, however, are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the sincerity of their beliefs.Would that "true Christians" such as yourself demonstrated such Christian charity. Edited March 16, 2012 by selek1
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 My opinion is that we know many many specifics about Godhood, not just from our own experience we are gaining here, but from the words and actions of God HImself.Your term Godhood is a LDS thing... meaning God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, Mormons believe that all Three are seperatd individuals.... Christianity does not teach of a God...Hood another example of Mormons not being ChristiansBChrist751@aol.com
Minos Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Apostate if you do not get back on topic and add meaningful comments to the discussion you will be banned.
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 The topic is do mormon believe that they can become Gods? the answer is Yes!
apostate1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Methinks you got it!!! Way to come around. MWMormons are taught, As Man is, God once was.... As God is, Man can become....Mormons belive that God became a God by following natural laws and princpals it's quite an amzing and egostical belief. I wonder does President Monson truly consider himself a Prophet the spokes person for god here on earth ? If he does, he must have a huge ego.
Zakuska Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) The topic is do mormon believe that they can become Gods? the answer is Yes!You bet and so does the bible. The whole reason for the Bible is so that men can become "LIKE" God the Father and partakers in his Divine Nature.PSJohn 1031 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?Why in the World would Jesus quote a scripture in which God himself referse to other beings beside himself as "gods"? And why are you breaking scripture? Edited March 16, 2012 by Zakuska
selek1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Mormons are taught, As Man is, God once was.... As God is, Man can become....Mormons belive that God became a God by following natural laws and princpals it's quite an amzing and egostical belief. Not quite.We believe we can become "as God" by following his commandments and through the grace of his son Jesus Christ.No Mormon- nor anyone else- will ever be worthy of exaltation in and of themselves. No works can save us. No effort of our own can redeem us. No number of prayers, rites, ordninances, or ceremonies can sanctify us. We are redeemed and made worthy ONLY through Christ.That is neither arrogant, nor egotistical.It is not hubris, pride, or arrogance to take the Lord at his word.Arrogance, pride, hubris, and/or ego would only enter the picture is we presumed we could do it on our own.We do not.We acknowledge our debt to the Lord in every prayer, in every rite, and in every ordinance.Mormons- as much as any other Christian- approach God as supplicants, as disciples, and as students.And- contrary to the popular caricature offered up by the willfully ignorant or malicious- we have no designs on God's throne.We believe- and are correctly taught- that we will become joint heirs in Christ, "sharing in all that the Father hath".We will never supplant or replace God.We will simply share in the rich inheritance he has promised to the faithful.That is Biblical.That is Christian- despite the Hellenistic corruption and scriptural revisionism which dominate "mainstream" Christian Protestantism today.Theosis and the exaltation of man were taught and believed by the earliest Christian Fathers- the Apostles and their co-religionists.While you and yours may reject that belief, it is intrinsically and inescpably Christian- however fervently you might wih otherwise. Edited March 16, 2012 by selek1
altersteve Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 I wonder does President Monson truly consider himself a Prophet the spokes person for god here on earth ? If he does, he must have a huge ego.I guess Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Peter, etc. all had huge egos too.
altersteve Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Brigham Young also stated that his sermons were considered Doctrine, CFR
selek1 Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 CFRApostate is (surprise, surprise) taking a quote from the Journal of Discourses out of context for polemical purposes.The actual comment was that his sermons could be considered authoritative and doctrinal- after he'd had the chance to review and correct them.Love him, hate him. fear him, or despise him, even Brigham Young wasn't so arrogant to believe that his extemporaneous comments were the unadultered word of God.
Recommended Posts