Women Held The Priesthood In The Early Chruch?

[Saints Alive]

I have heard claims from several different places that women held some type of priesthood (a specific one is never cited) in the early days of the church. Yet, the only evidence I have ever seen to support this claim are examples of women giving blessings / anointing with oil (which may be argued to have been done through faith) and weak links to temple promises. Is there any REAL, OBJECTIVE, evidence that women ever held “some type of priesthood” or capital P Priesthood? Or is this more Mormon folklore?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Depends what you mean and how early your "early days" refers to.

Does one have to hold some sort of Priesthood to be a Prophet? If so, then it must be implied in the Bible, wherein there are several Prophetesses mentioned, such as Miriam, the Judge Deborah, Huldah, Anna, and Isaiah's wife, who is specifically remembered in 2 Nephi. Now, were these Prophets like our modern ones, ordained in our current Mormon hierarchy? Very doubtful, since we currently restrict it to males. But then again, Melchizedek was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life," so it's not like gender is necessarily a particular requirement.

Of course, there is a fair amount of blasphemous rabble-rousing folklore making the rounds suggesting that the Holy Spirit (of Lady Wisdom?) holds an office relevant to this question, as implied in 1 Nephi 10:22, which states that "the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not." And there are conflicting interpretations of what exactly Joseph Smith meant by the "highest order" of the Priesthood. But it's all pretty murky.

[Nofear]

He probably refers to the practice in the early days of the Church for women to lay their hands on the heads of other sisters to bless them -- sometimes with a priesthood holder participating, sometimes without. But it was never done by the "authority of the Melchezidek Priesthood" it was always a blessing invoking their faith. Even today, it would be perfectly appropriate for my wife to join her hands to mine when I lay my hands upon the heads of my children to give them a blessing (though, the Church does discourage such -- lest it become a stumbling block in understanding/faith for others). Not that she would be using priesthood authority but it would be a contribution of faith manifest by a physical display.

A good summary post with some references and opinions on the matter.

[Saints Alive]

I think it is quite clear that the "early days" of the church in an LDS context generally refers to the beginning of the restoration pre exodus.

Just for the record, I have no problem with women giving blessings of faith, annointing with oil, or joining in with the Priesthood giving blessings. I actually wish the practice would come back into fashion, especially with an increasing number of single mothers in the church. However I still see no evidence of women having ever held the Priesthood.

[BCSpace]

Anyone can be a prophet (Revelation 19:10), so I think being a prophetess is not necessarily a confirmation of priesthood.

[rameumptom]

Women were allowed to do faith healings in the early church, later discouraged by the First Presidency about a century ago.

In the Nauvoo era, as some received their endowments, Joseph Smith started the Quorum of the Anointed. This included both men and women, as a small group. They would discuss sacred issues in closed meetings, and often would gather in prayer circles to pray for the sick and afflicted.

That said, when man and woman seal in the temple, together they receive the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood. So, together they work to achieve celestial glory, equally holding the priesthood together.

[JAHS]

Perhaps you are refering to what some critics have claimed; that there is documentary evidence that Joseph Smith gave women priesthood power in the temple endowment ritual in which women are "anointed to become queens and priestesses".

There exists a statement by Smith two weeks before he organized the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Ill., in 1842, where he told the women that "the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood" and he was "going to make this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day - as in Paul's day."

People thought he was talking about the Relief Society and that the sisters would be made priests. However, Joseph Smith was refering to the Church in general when he said "Society", not the Relief Society. Joseph Smith had, on other occasions, used the word "Society" when talking about the Church in general (D&C 134:9-10, History of the Church Vol. IV).

If he was talking about the Relief Society specifically he would have said he was "going to make this Society a kingdom of priestesses"(instead of priests). Women were not and are not given the priesthood, but they can act under priesthood authority when performing ordinances in the temple.

Edited March 7, 2012 by JAHS

[zeez]

Athena, the God of civilization and textiles holds the priesthood. She is a women and she came before Joseph Smith. Most certainly, women in the early church held the priesthood.

[zerinus]

I have heard claims from several different places that women held some type of priesthood (a specific one is never cited) in the early days of the church. Yet, the only evidence I have ever seen to support this claim are examples of women giving blessings / anointing with oil (which may be argued to have been done through faith) and weak links to temple promises. Is there any REAL, OBJECTIVE, evidence that women ever held “some type of priesthood” or capital P Priesthood? Or is this more Mormon folklore?

There is some truth to the claim, although details are sketchy. Apparently some form of the priesthood was (and is) available to women, but not as we understand it (i.e. holding office or keys in the Church, or being members of a quorum).

[Mansquatch]

Let's not tell women that certain temple ordinances they do are invalid because no one who did them had any level of the priesthood since we are a backward church full of misogynist yokels and oppressed women. Maybe someday we will overcome the antiquated notion that men and women are different and have different roles that compliment each other.

[Saints Alive]

Let's not tell women that certain temple ordinances they do are invalid because no one who did them had any level of the priesthood since we are a backward church full of misogynist yokels and oppressed women. Maybe someday we will overcome the antiquated notion that men and women are different and have different roles that compliment each other.

what's wrong with men and women having different and complimentary roles? That is what the proclamation on the family states, I hold the proclamation as divine revelation. Do you not see it as such?

[selek1]

Let's not tell women that certain temple ordinances they do are invalid because no one who did them had any level of the priesthood since we are a backward church full of misogynist yokels and oppressed women. Maybe someday we will overcome the antiquated notion that men and women are different and have different roles that compliment each other.

I have to agree here.

Could you please translate your previous post into comprehensible English?

[Mansquatch]

what's wrong with men and women having different and complimentary roles? That is what the proclamation on the family states, I hold the proclamation as divine revelation. Do you not see it as such?

Oh man, we really need a sarcasm point. I propose ending sarcastic sentences with " * " instead of " . ". Like we need a sarcasm point though* See how it works?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have heard claims from several different places that women held some type of priesthood (a specific one is never cited) in the early days of the church. Yet, the only evidence I have ever seen to support this claim are examples of women giving blessings / anointing with oil (which may be argued to have been done through faith) and weak links to temple promises. Is there any REAL, OBJECTIVE, evidence that women ever held “some type of priesthood” or capital P Priesthood? Or is this more Mormon folklore?

They still do in the Temple as I understand it.

[Mansquatch]

I have to agree here.

Could you please translate your previous post into comprehensible English?

Confused... do you have to agree with me or something else? Additionally the post previous to that one was in an entirely different topic thread.

I was saying that in a perfect representation of how the Lord has given men the priesthood, there are currently times when women are able to perform saving ordinances, as directed, by the priesthood. I truly believe that men and women are complimentary to one another and acknowledge differences and their importance.

[selek1]

Confused... do you have to agree with me or something else? Additionally the post previous to that one was in an entirely different topic thread.

I was saying that in a perfect representation of how the Lord has given men the priesthood, there are currently times when women are able to perform saving ordinances, as directed, by the priesthood. I truly believe that men and women are complimentary to one another and acknowledge differences and their importance.

Apologies for the confusion- I was agreeing with Saints Alive. (I was simply thinking faster than I type).

Also- thank you for the clarification. Your previous post seemed to indicate precisely the opposite of what you have just stated.

[Mansquatch]

Apologies for the confusion- I was agreeing with Saints Alive. (I was simply thinking faster than I type).

Also- thank you for the clarification. Your previous post seemed to indicate precisely the opposite of what you have just stated.

Hence post #13

[splendidsun]

It is perhaps poor form to link to one's stuff, but this is a topic where I have done a lot of work. This excerpt from my paper on adoption gets at my attempt to contextualize early discourse surrounding priesthood, the temple, and women. Most of the time people approach the material with terribly presentist perspectives.

Women were allowed to do faith healings in the early church, later discouraged by the First Presidency about a century ago.

Actually that is not accurate; a century ago, the First Presidency was still encouraging women to administer healing rituals. JFS's large general circular on the matter was written in 1914.

[Saints Alive]

It is perhaps poor form to link to one's stuff, but this is a topic where I have done a lot of work. This excerpt from my paper on adoption gets at my attempt to contextualize early discourse surrounding priesthood, the temple, and women. Most of the time people approach the material with terribly presentist perspectives.

Women were allowed to do faith healings in the early church, later discouraged by the First Presidency about a century ago.

Actually that is not accurate; a century ago, the First Presidency was still encouraging women to administer healing rituals. JFS's large general circular on the matter was written in 1914.

Thanks, love your work at BCC by the way.

[Tepui]

Does one have to hold some sort of Priesthood to be a Prophet? If so, then it must be implied in the Bible, wherein there are several Prophetesses mentioned, such as Miriam, the Judge Deborah, Huldah, Anna, and Isaiah's wife, who is specifically remembered in 2 Nephi. Now, were these Prophets like our modern ones, ordained in our current Mormon hierarchy? Very doubtful, since we currently restrict it to males. But then again, Melchizedek was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life," so it's not like gender is necessarily a particular requirement.

16 Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even ^ababes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were^bforbidden that there should not any man write them.

Following the flow of logic,so now infants should hold the priesthood.

...when will this end...

[mfbukowski]

I have heard claims from several different places that women held some type of priesthood (a specific one is never cited) in the early days of the church. Yet, the only evidence I have ever seen to support this claim are examples of women giving blessings / anointing with oil (which may be argued to have been done through faith) and weak links to temple promises. Is there any REAL, OBJECTIVE, evidence that women ever held “some type of priesthood” or capital P Priesthood? Or is this more Mormon folklore?

Have you been endowed?

Listen very well next time.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I think there's a lot of truth in what Nibley had to say about Mosiah 8-10:

"Now, this is a remarkable thing: occasionally, we have breakthroughs in the Book of Mormon of what is known as the "Wisdom literature." Recently, it's the big thing. More articles and studies are written today about this than anything else in Egyptian and Hebrew, showing that Egyptian and Hebrew Wisdom literature are the same. Way back years ago, the great Erman discovered parallel passages and whole speeches (well, Proverbs, and so forth; that's an Egyptian, Amenemhet), and he hid it. He was ashamed of it because [he felt] this shouldn't be. The Egyptians and Hebrews shouldn't be like that, but today everybody is getting on the bandwagon. The Hebrew and Egyptian Wisdom literature are very close, and then you have the Sophia, the literature of the Greeks.

But this idea is interesting here: 'How blind and impenetrable are the understandings of men; [Why? Because they're stupid? No.] for they will not seek Wisdom, neither do they desire that She should rule over them!' I think it's an interesting thing that Wisdom, which is Ḥokmāh, which is Sophia (which is always used all over the place), and Ma'at (or anything you want to call Her) and the Norns or anything you want to call Her, is always personified as a woman. Even in our scriptures, too; there it is. You all know about Athena, who is Wisdom personified.

The ancient axiom explaining this is that Wisdom is feminine, Mother Earth. Wisdom comes from the Norns. Remember, Mother Earth, Erde, speaks wisdom. The sacred spring ran, and you went to the sacred spring to consult it. And the sibyls and the Delphic oracles were all women. They hold the secrets. The Egyptian was Seshat; Her name means secret. She held the secrets to the knowledge that the men wrote down, and so forth. She was the bookkeeper; She held control of things. You always have the woman here in control. Then, of course, there were the perversions in witches, which were always superior to wizards. This bit of Wisdom literature is nice here because it's true: 'They will not seek wisdom (which should be capitalized), neither do they desire that She should rule over them!'

[...] [According to Aristotle,] seeking for knowledge is like flight from ignorance because you're scared of it. It's like ignorance pushes in on you on all sides and is suffocating. Like an airbag or a fog, you have to keep pushing it out all the time because you are in danger if you don't. So this knowledge is very important for survival. If you don't pay attention to things, it may be the end of you. This has happened again and again, and, of course, today we are not paying attention to a lot of things. As it says here, they don't seek Wisdom even when She should rule them, and the beasts of the forest are waiting for them there. They flee from the shepherd who could give them good advice and take care of them, but they run away. They know best themselves and they destroy themselves by this agnosia, ignorance."

Also a nice little snippet from an interview he gave to Dialogue way back when:

Dialogue: We are interested in your matriarchal studies. I understand you're going to lecture at the law school on matriarchies.

Nibley: Oh, yes. I have quite a section on that in this book on Abraham. Of course, the Egyptians have the matriarchal tradition. The line passed through the females.

Dialogue: There is quite an interest now in feminist studies, of course.

Nibley: Yes, there is!

Dialogue: About the prehistory of goddesses and the notion that the patriarchy is more recent.

Nibley: The matriarchy is just as old as the patriarchal order.

And of course there's the nice essay on Patriarchy and Matriarchy (which I have some problems with, but which is still a great read on why we should return to a Celestial order in which Adam and Eve, the archetypal Man and Woman, are equal in everything):

"The perfect and beautiful union of Adam and Eve excited the envy and jealousy of the Evil One, who made it his prime objective to break it up. He began by making both parties self-conscious and uncomfortable. 'Ho, ho,' said he, 'you are naked. You had better run and hide, or at least put something on. How do you think you look to your Father?' They had reason to be ashamed, because their nakedness betrayed their disobedience. They had eaten of the forbidden fruit. But Satan wanted to shock them with his pious show of prudish alarm -- he had made them ashamed of being seen together, and that was one wedge driven between them. [...]

The Dispensation of Adam ended as all great dispensations have ended -- in a great apostasy. Adam and Eve brought up their children diligently in the gospel, but the adversary was not idle in his continued attempts to drive wedges between them. [...]

So one must choose between patriarchy and matriarchy until the Zion of God is truly established upon the earth. It is that old Devil's dilemma, in which we are asked to take sides with Gog or Magog as his means of decoying us away from our true dedication to that celestial order established in the beginning."

Edited March 11, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Saints Alive]

Have you been endowed?

Listen very well next time.

I have and I believe I know what you are talking about, I also believe that it is a FUTURE promise and not in effect at this time. Also the Breatheren have clarified that women don't "share" or "jointly hold" the priesthood through their husbands but they do reap the benefits.

[blooit]

My father shared the story of a blessing his mother had a few years before he was born (in 1952). It wasn't until years later I was listening to her recorded history that she talked about how the blessing was given by a woman specially set apart to give blessings to women about to have a baby. Surprised me at first, then I learned more about the process.

[Cobalt-70]

I have heard claims from several different places that women held some type of priesthood (a specific one is never cited) in the early days of the church. Yet, the only evidence I have ever seen to support this claim are examples of women giving blessings / anointing with oil (which may be argued to have been done through faith) and weak links to temple promises. Is there any REAL, OBJECTIVE, evidence that women ever held “some type of priesthood” or capital P Priesthood? Or is this more Mormon folklore?

By any reasonable interpretation of the Endowment ceremony, any endowed woman holds the priesthood, and is a priestess. Though she is "prepared" to officiate in the ordinances of both the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, the only ordinance that Mormon women officiate in today is the Washing and Anointing. Women are never actually ordained to any priesthood office, but they are set apart for priesthood roles.