Women Held The Priesthood In The Early Chruch?

[mfbukowski]

By any reasonable interpretation of the Endowment ceremony, any endowed woman holds the priesthood, and is a priestess. Though she is "prepared" to officiate in the ordinances of both the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, the only ordinance that Mormon women officiate in today is the Washing and Anointing. Women are never actually ordained to any priesthood office, but they are set apart for priesthood roles.

[Lachoneus]

By any reasonable interpretation of the Endowment ceremony, any endowed woman holds the priesthood, and is a priestess. Though she is "prepared" to officiate in the ordinances of both the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, the only ordinance that Mormon women officiate in today is the Washing and Anointing. Women are never actually ordained to any priesthood office, but they are set apart for priesthood roles.

None of the sisters I have worked with at the Timpanogos Temple for the last 13 years would agree that this is a "reasonable interpretation" of the endowment ceremony. Because discussion of these matters is prohibited both by covenant and board rules, I will not comment further.

[Saints Alive]

None of the sisters I have worked with at the Timpanogos Temple for the last 13 years would agree that this is a "reasonable interpretation" of the endowment ceremony. Because discussion of these matters is prohibited both by covenant and board rules, I will not comment further.

I second that notion, I have attended many endowment sessions and cannot recall any portion that gives women the priesthood. Don't confuse future promises with current authority.

[mfbukowski]

When one says that they "have authority" to perform an ordinance, where might that authority come from?

What is the standard definition of the priesthood which is recited often in priesthood meetings? When asked what the priesthood is, if one answered "The power and authority from God , if exercised righteously, to bless others in his name," one would be entirely correct.

Edited March 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Cobalt-70]

None of the sisters I have worked with at the Timpanogos Temple for the last 13 years would agree that this is a "reasonable interpretation" of the endowment ceremony. Because discussion of these matters is prohibited both by covenant and board rules, I will not comment further.

Then under what authority do women officiate in the Melchizedek Priesthood ordinance of Washing and Anointing? It is not an accident that the Endowment ceremony tells women that they "are prepared to officiate" in the ordinances of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood.

Early Mormons understood this, and in fact, Brigham Young's 1843 diary noted that three women were "taken into the order of the priesthood" on the day of their endowment. When his own wife was endowed, Young noted that she was "admitted in to the hi[gh]est order[ of] Pr[ie]sthood." In 1845, Young "appointed W.W. Phelps and P.P. Pratt to instruct the brethren and sisters...more fully into the nature and importance of the blessings and powers of the Holy Priesthood which they had received." As late as 1878, Joseph Young gave a blessing to Zina Young Card that said, "These blessings are yours, the blessings and power according to the holy Melchisedek Priesthood you received in your Endowments, and you shall have them." This is a year after the historian Edward Tullidge noted after studying Mormon women that that "Mormon women, as well as men, hold the priesthood." There are numerous other early Mormon references to people receiving the priesthood, or joining the highest quorum of the priesthood, on the day of their endowment, so Tullidge's statement would not have been controversial in the 19th century.

Another interesting point: Heber C. Kimball claimed in 1857 that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was only worthy to carry and raise Jesus because she "was of the Royal Priesthood, which is after the order of God" (i.e., the Melchizedek Priesthood). (JD 6:125).

Edited March 13, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Cobalt-70]

I second that notion, I have attended many endowment sessions and cannot recall any portion that gives women the priesthood. Don't confuse future promises with current authority.

The statement that women are "prepared to officiate" in the ordinances of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood is not a future promise. The women, just like the men, "are prepared" at that moment. And in fact, some women do officiate in the Melchizedek Priesthood ordinance of Washing and Anointing.

[Saints Alive]

I think that statement is symbolic but I will ask the Temple President next time I go.

[Damien the Leper]

Then under what authority do women officiate in the Melchizedek Priesthood ordinance of Washing and Anointing? It is not an accident that the Endowment ceremony tells women that they "are prepared to officiate" in the ordinances of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood.

Early Mormons understood this, and in fact, Brigham Young's 1843 diary noted that three women were "taken into the order of the priesthood" on the day of their endowment. When his own wife was endowed, Young noted that she was "admitted in to the hi[gh]est order[ of] Pr[ie]sthood." In 1845, Young "appointed W.W. Phelps and P.P. Pratt to instruct the brethren and sisters...more fully into the nature and importance of the blessings and powers of the Holy Priesthood which they had received." As late as 1878, Joseph Young gave a blessing to Zina Young Card that said, "These blessings are yours, the blessings and power according to the holy Melchisedek Priesthood you received in your Endowments, and you shall have them." This is a year after the historian Edward Tullidge noted after studying Mormon women that that "Mormon women, as well as men, hold the priesthood." There are numerous other early Mormon references to people receiving the priesthood, or joining the highest quorum of the priesthood, on the day of their endowment, so Tullidge's statement would not have been controversial in the 19th century.

Another interesting point: Heber C. Kimball claimed in 1857 that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was only worthy to carry and raise Jesus because she "was of the Royal Priesthood, which is after the order of God" (i.e., the Melchizedek Priesthood). (JD 6:125).

The poor response to this post would be:

nevermind.

[Cobalt-70]

I think that statement is symbolic but I will ask the Temple President next time I go.

An explanation of the symbolism is already explicitly in the ceremony. The symbols represent the fact that women are prepared to officiate in the ordinances of the priesthood.

[splendidsun]

My father shared the story of a blessing his mother had a few years before he was born (in 1952). It wasn't until years later I was listening to her recorded history that she talked about how the blessing was given by a woman specially set apart to give blessings to women about to have a baby. Surprised me at first, then I learned more about the process.

blooit, I know that I am a little late to this, but I have written on this topic and I try to gether accounts as I come accross them. Would you be willing to provide a citation or location for that account?

Regarding the subsequent conversation about temple priesthood, I guess my previous comment must have been just too much work.

[mfbukowski]

Regarding the subsequent conversation about temple priesthood, I guess my previous comment must have been just too much work.

That wasn't it for me, I had felt that I understood the concept by connecting what you call "The Cosmological Priesthood" with the "Church of the Firstborn" and the "Patriarchal Order"- I have described the central concept being the sealing together of all humanity in kind of tapestry of social interaction similar to the idea of the Social Trinity- except not a "trinity", but one including all mankind, all together in "Gods throne" as in John 17.

Am I wrong?

[LDSToronto]

Am I wrong?

Yes. Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not hold the priesthood nor are they ordained nor have they had it conferred upon them.

"Women do not hold the priesthood because the Lord put it that way", ~Gordon B. Hinckley.

This website might help: http://mormon.org/faq/women-in-the-church/

H.

[splendidsun]

Am I wrong?

What I was trying to point out was that when "priesthood" or "priest" or "priestess" is used in the temple it is talking about something that is different than the older administrative priesthoods we are familiar with in the Church. There are no elders, or deacons, or bishops in heaven. To look for that administrative priesthood in the temple is a decontextualization of the Nauvoo Temple and temple quorum. Now, there is a long history of taking relatively recent theological or doctrinal systemetizations and imposing them on the temple; but I submit that such excercises ultimately don't make any sense. When women or men participate in the temple liturgy, whether by being born in the covenant or being sealed in marriage or being initiated, they form a part of the "priesthood." The "endowment of power" of the June 1831 conference or the 1836 solemn assembly was filtered through this new priesthood network; consequently when participents (whther male or female, single or married) are "endowed" in the temple, they seek power within this newer (cosmological) priesthood.

[Saints Alive]

In other words, women don't hold the melchezidic priesthood after they are endowed.

[splendidsun]

In other words, women don't hold the melchezidic priesthood after they are endowed.

The idea that one confers priesthood then ordains to an office within the priesthood arose with Joseph F. Smith, and is consequently a very late development. So the idea that one could have any administrative priesthood confered on oneself outside of a specific office by the endowment ritual is rather anachronistic in its premises.

[LDSToronto]

In other words, women don't hold the melchezidic priesthood after they are endowed.

correct

[mfbukowski]

Yes. Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not hold the priesthood nor are they ordained nor have they had it conferred upon them.

"Women do not hold the priesthood because the Lord put it that way", ~Gordon B. Hinckley.

This website might help: http://mormon.org/fa...-in-the-church/

H.

This is an over simplification and I wasn't speaking to you.

Authority IS conferred on them. I have assisted in setting them apart.

Edited March 15, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Saints Alive]

I think there is an important (even if it is only slight) difference between being given authority to preform a specific ordinance in the temple for members of the same sex, and holding / being ordained to the priesthood. Especially if you claim they are ordained to the melchezidic priesthood

[mfbukowski]

What I was trying to point out was that when "priesthood" or "priest" or "priestess" is used in the temple it is talking about something that is different than the older administrative priesthoods we are familiar with in the Church. There are no elders, or deacons, or bishops in heaven. To look for that administrative priesthood in the temple is a decontextualization of the Nauvoo Temple and temple quorum. Now, there is a long history of taking relatively recent theological or doctrinal systemetizations and imposing them on the temple; but I submit that such excercises ultimately don't make any sense. When women or men participate in the temple liturgy, whether by being born in the covenant or being sealed in marriage or being initiated, they form a part of the "priesthood." The "endowment of power" of the June 1831 conference or the 1836 solemn assembly was filtered through this new priesthood network; consequently when participents (whther male or female, single or married) are "endowed" in the temple, they seek power within this newer (cosmological) priesthood.

So the authority women exercise would be part of this "cosmological" priesthood, if I understand you correctly.

[mfbukowski]

I think there is an important (even if it is only slight) difference between being given authority to preform a specific ordinance in the temple for members of the same sex, and holding / being ordained to the priesthood. Especially if you claim they are ordained to the melchezidic priesthood

I have of course never said they were "ordained to the Melchizadek Priesthood". They are not.

[mfbukowski]

The idea that one confers priesthood then ordains to an office within the priesthood arose with Joseph F. Smith, and is consequently a very late development. So the idea that one could have any administrative priesthood confered on oneself outside of a specific office by the endowment ritual is rather anachronistic in its premises.

Please clarify what you mean. I am not sure what you mean by "administrative priesthood" if it does not include priesthood offices. To me, it seems that "offices" imply different administrative roles.

Further, I am not quite sure what you mean by "cosmological priesthood". Perhaps you could clarify that as well. Thanks

[splendidsun]

Sorry for being overly obtuse. For my use of the "cosmological priesthood" see this write-up, which includes a link to a heavily anotated broader treatement.

By "administrative priesthood" I mean the priesthood in the Church before 1842, what we typically think of when we say things like, deacon, priest, elder, bishop, etc.

The bit about JFS was to point out a shift in practice. Now when one moves from being a priest to being an elder, typically one has the Melchisedek Priesthood conferred and then one is ordained to a specific office in the priesthood. That was an innovation in the practice of ordination introduced by Joseph F. Smith. Before the twentieth century, and often well into it, one was simply ordained to an office in the priesthood.

[splendidsun]

So the authority women exercise would be part of this "cosmological" priesthood, if I understand you correctly.

This is a bit complex as the qualifications for those who administer these rituals appears to have shifted a bit, but generally, I think that is accurate.

[mfbukowski]

So the authority women exercise would be part of this "cosmological" priesthood, if I understand you correctly.

This is a bit complex as the qualifications for those who administer these rituals appears to have shifted a bit, but generally, I think that is accurate.

That is kind of the way I understand it- clearly it is not an "ordination" yet it definitely includes conferring priesthood authority. Ordinances must be done with authority- how else could they be done by women if it is not conferred by some mechanism?

To me the principle is self-evident.

[Saints Alive]

If I may go out on a limb and speculate a bit...

All, male, female, bond, and free are born with the priesthood and the ordination or appointment only gives one the authority or approval of God to use it. In other words being ordained or conferred a particular priesthood doesn't change the individual it just gives him the right to act in that office.