Normal Ward Size

[jskains]

I was trying to judge if I was in a small ward for Utah County (Orem) today or a normal sized one. We had the chapel and first overflow filled, but Elders was only about 15 people in the class. What would one expect as a healthy sized ward? Just curious.

jMS

[Buzzard]

I have been in wards that had over 400 people for Sacrament meeting, and two seperate EQ, since they had over 96 Elders, but not enough deacons to pass the sacrament. I have been in wards that struggled to get 100 people out, and others that popped open the doors into the cultural hall almost every week. I don't think there is such a thing as a normal ward. Twenty years ago, if you had two adjacent wards that got 200 people out for meetings, in very short order you would have three wards. I don't think it's so automatic these days.

[cinepro]

I was trying to judge if I was in a small ward for Utah County (Orem) today or a normal sized one. We had the chapel and first overflow filled, but Elders was only about 15 people in the class. What would one expect as a healthy sized ward? Just curious.

jMS

My ward in suburban so-cal sounds like that one. Regularly into the overflow (of a stake center), with regular attendance of 15-20 in Elder's Quorum.

[thesometimesaint]

Ward size is determined by the number of Melchizedek Priesthood holders within Ward boundardies. In my neck of the woods that usually means Wards of between 3-400 members.

[cdowis]

Not just the size but also the number of priesthood leaders. Are active members holding multiple positions vs a ward where all of the positions are filled and active members hold no positions at all.

Anyway, I understand that the church has had bad experiences after splitting wards and stakes, so it tends now to go for very large units over a long period of time to ensure its stability before splitting.

Edited March 5, 2012 by cdowis

[rpn]

And some wards have lots of men in the HP Quorums. So you'd want to compare both in order to assess priesthood numbers.

[BCSpace]

About 300 to 350 seems to be an average size in our region. Low attendence at Sacrament meeting then is about 120 with about 150-170 being average. There are some wards sized in the 300's with high attendence in the 200s.

It takes 15 active priesthood holders to create a Ward; three each for Bishopric, HP, EQ, YM, and SS although that last may not require counselors if classes are small. The SS is typically tasked to provide for substitutes and teacher training ("Teaching the Doctrine" and "Keeping the Doctrine Pure"). You could have an SS presidency with one counselor and the other priesthood holder could be the WML.

So I hear in other regions that a ward could be much smaller, say around 150. Any smaller than that and one is typically in branch territory and oft times there are senior missionaries supplementing the local leadership.

For those of you who have one, CHI book 1 contains guidelines for ward creation.

Edited March 5, 2012 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

And some wards have lots of men in the HP Quorums. So you'd want to compare both in order to assess priesthood numbers.

If your ward has more than one quorum in the HP, EQ, or YM organizations, it's probably going to be a larger than normal ward and/or the activity rate will be high. When I served a mission in L.A. in the mid 80's, the Wilshire and downtown Hollywood wards were pushing 1000 members each and were served by three missionary companionships each. Yet actual attendance did not dictate multiple quorums.

Lot's of baptisms though when I was there, we became much more strict as to who we baptized. There were also lots of "lost souls"; people, usually very young who had run away from all over the country and came to L.A. and had abandoned the Church for a crazy lifestyle or a "nontraditional" religion but they were still on the records. We got referrals all the time from parents to find their son or daughter in the area.

On more than one occaision, I've looked over the membership lists of our "average" sized wards and found that if activity could be increased into the high 200s, some wards might be begin to be able to see multple quorums.

Edited March 5, 2012 by BCSpace

[Freedom]

Ward size is also determined by geography. There is a ward in the greater Vancouver area that has about 100 in attendance but they share the building with another ward with almost 160. The problem is that most of the leadership of the larger ward is on the opposite side of the town so changing the boundary would only give the smaller ward a lot of inactive or part member families.

I attended a ward in Southern Alberta where the HP quorum had about 70 men attending but the elders quorum had about 6. The wards are enormous but cover very little geography. The ward was too big in my opinion. Few have the opportunity for leadership experience, and the needy disappear in the crowd

[LeSellers]

And some wards have lots of men in the HP Quorums. So you'd want to compare both in order to assess priesthood numbers.

If your ward has more than one quorum in the HP, ...

No matter how large a ward may be, no matter how many High Priests it may include. there is only one High Priests' quorum in a stake. The High Priests' quorum is the only one I know of that has no upper limit on members.

A Deacons' quorum is no more than 12

A Teachers' quorum is no more than 24.

A Priests' quorum has no more than 48.

An Elders' quorum includes up to 96.

A Seventies' quorum is 70.

A quorum of Apostles has 12 members.

A High Council (although not technically a "quorum") also has 12 members.

A Bishopric or Presidency has 3 (although the First Presidency has had up to 5—perhaps 6–I don't remember—in my lifetime; Wikipedia, without attestation, says there have been as many as eight).

These limits are all enshrined in scripture, either ancient or modern, often both.

High Priests' quorums are, for purposes of effectiveness, broken down into groups, but the group leadership has no keys—we merely minister and administer, under the direction of the Stake (i.e., Quorum) President.

Lehi

Edited March 6, 2012 by LeSellers

[Saints Alive]

I've been in a couple of wards where weekly attendance was less than 80, and yes they were bona fide wards, not branches. One ward got to the point that the Bishop threatened to leave SS and EQ positions unfilled (in order to give full leadership to YM) if activity didn't improve. I have also been in a ward with over 200 members on the books and fewer than 60 average weekly attendance. It definitely varies from place to place.

EDIT: Perhaps it's just when I show up that everyone stays home

Edited March 6, 2012 by Saints Alive

[Freedom]

No matter how large a ward may be, no matter how many High Priests it may include. there is only one High Priests' quorum in a stake. The High Priests' quorum is the only one I know of that has no upper limit on members.

High Priests' quorums are, for purposes of effectiveness, broken down into groups, but the group leadership has no keys—we merely administer, under the direction of the Stake/Quorum President.

Lehi

I don't think BCSpace's comment contradicts this. Although I have not seen it, I do not see why a ward could not have two HP group leaders.

[LeSellers]

I don't think BCSpace's comment contradicts this. Although I have not seen it, I do not see why a ward could not have two HP group leaders.

Not at all the same question.

BCSpace explicitly spoke of multiple High Priests' quorums in a single ward. No such condition exists, nor is possible. Whether a Quorum President could, would, or should establish two or more High Priests' Groups in a single ward is up to him. It's his stewardship, and he knows the situation better than you or I do. But he cannot make a second quorum in his stake, much less one of his wards. That's not an option to him.

Lehi

[Duncan]

my ward in Western Canada but not Alberta has maybe a 100 but then some leave afterwards and I subbed for GD and we had maybe 3 guys in the class other then yours truly. We have maybe 10-15 people in EQ, with 4 missionaries. My folks ward had maybe 60 coming out. The ward boundaries here are so ridiculous that it defies logic

[Duncan]

Ward size is also determined by geography. There is a ward in the greater Vancouver area that has about 100 in attendance but they share the building with another ward with almost 160. The problem is that most of the leadership of the larger ward is on the opposite side of the town so changing the boundary would only give the smaller ward a lot of inactive or part member families.

I attended a ward in Southern Alberta where the HP quorum had about 70 men attending but the elders quorum had about 6. The wards are enormous but cover very little geography. The ward was too big in my opinion. Few have the opportunity for leadership experience, and the needy disappear in the crowd

too true, most of our leadership over the years has come from Alberta and my last bihsop was from there and he said he wouldn't have ever been on the Hiigh Council or a Bishop there, whereas here he was and he was great! Now he's the Teacher's advisor in E-town

[BCSpace]

BCSpace explicitly spoke of multiple High Priests' quorums in a single ward. No such condition exists, nor is possible. Whether a Quorum President could, would, or should establish two or more High Priests' Groups in a single ward is up to him. It's his stewardship, and he knows the situation better than you or I do. But he cannot make a second quorum in his stake, much less one of his wards. That's not an option to him.

Yes, my apologies, I get caught up in my thinking with "quorums" when speaking of all the priesthood together. There is only one High Priests' quorum in the Stake. CHI book 2, 7.1.2

Edited March 6, 2012 by BCSpace

[guitarist]

No matter how large a ward may be, no matter how many High Priests it may include. there is only one High Priests' quorum in a stake. The High Priests' quorum is the only one I know of that has no upper limit on members.

A Deacons' quorum is no more than 12

A Teachers' quorum is no more than 24.

A Priests' quorum has no more than 48.

An Elders' quorum includes up to 96.

A Seventies' quorum is 70.

A quorum of Apostles has 12 members.

A High Council (although not technically a "quorum") also has 12 members.

A Bishopric or Presidency has 3 (although the First Presidency has had up to 5—perhaps 6–I don't remember—in my lifetime).

These limits are all enshrined in scripture, either ancient or modern, often both.

High Priests' quorums are, for purposes of effectiveness, broken down into groups, but the group leadership has no keys—we merely minister and administer, under the direction of the Stake (i.e., Quorum) President.

Lehi

Something I've always thought interesting to point out is that because the Bishop is the head of the Priests quorum, there can only ever be 1 Priests quorum per ward (can't have 2 active bishops to a ward, after all). Should the number of priests exceed 48 in a ward, by definition, the ward needs to be split/rearranged/whatever to bring every given priest in a geographical area to a quorum that also is less than 48 in size. It's the only quorum/group/organization I know within a ward that has a definitive limit to the ward like that.

[BCSpace]

The tendency is to keep the numbers streamlined so there is a bit of tension; a bit of incentive to activate. So if there is no activation, then quorums such as for the YM and Elders tend to be slightly too small to get the job done. Similarly, the Primary and YW are also quite small. Which makes me wonder about these super-sized or multiple quorum wards I hear about in Utah. Are they nearly 100% active? Perhaps the geographical area for those wards is so small already there would be too much flux if they were made smaller?

Edited March 6, 2012 by BCSpace

[LeSellers]

because the Bishop is the head of the Priests quorum, there can only ever be 1 Priests quorum per ward (can't have 2 active bishops to a ward, after all). Should the number of priests exceed 48 in a ward, by definition, the ward needs to be split... [to have] a quorum that also is less than 48 in size. It's the only quorum/group/organization I know within a ward that has a definitive limit to the ward like that.

This subtly does escape many.

<hearsay>However, I have heard of (but not experienced) a ward with two Priests' groups, each with a first and a second assistant. Each one had about 20 priests, most of them active. Once, I believe here, someone told me that there was a Priests' quorum with more than 48 Priests, but that so few were active that the scriptural maximum was ignored. I have no idea on what basis, but, assuming the tale was correct, it seems more'n a bit odd. </hearsay>

Lehi

[Saints Alive]

Come to think of of it, I have even been in a ward with no priests and no more than 1 or 2 active boys in deacons and teachers quorum.

[guitarist]

Come to think of of it, I have even been in a ward with no priests and no more than 1 or 2 active boys in deacons and teachers quorum.

That matches my home ward's current state. The elders quorum mostly blesses/passes the sacrament each week there. Next kid in line to receive the Aaronic Priesthood is 9.

[guitarist]

This subtly does escape many.

<hearsay>However, I have heard of (but not experienced) a ward with two Priests' groups, each with a first and a second assistant. Each one had about 20 priests, most of them active. Once, I believe here, someone told me that there was a Priests' quorum with more than 48 Priests, but that so few were active that the scriptural maximum was ignored. I have no idea on what basis, but, assuming the tale was correct, it seems more'n a bit odd. </hearsay>

Lehi

Yeah, that does seem odd, as it is a pretty cut-n-dried regulation, I'd be interested to learn of their justification for that. The former point makes sense to me, in the same way that the Stake Pres can organize his HP quorum into groups as he sees fit, I see the same power afforded to the Bishop for the Priests quorum.

I think I do recall hearing once that a Stake Pres had a defined limit on number of HPs in a stake, like every other quorum, but I can't recall what that number was. It would also make sense to me in that same vein that an area authority would have a limit to the number of...people (dunno what group he would deal with exactly, since he deals with both the Stake Prezes & the Mission Pres(es) in the area) that are in his area as well.

[Whiskeypete]

Especially in Utah, where the ward boundaries can be very small, it really depends on the demographics of the area. When I was a teenager, I was one of about 20 in the priests quorum, and when I left on my mission, I was one of 19 missionaries serving from our ward.

But we hadn't had a baby born into the ward in over 5 years. No nursery, small primary, you could hear a pin drop during Sacrament Meeting.

This was an upper-middle-class area and there were no "starter homes" in the ward boundaries. Most of the men in the ward were 50-65 years old, successfully business men/doctors/lawyers, etc, and most of them had already served in bishoprics or high councils in previous wards and stakes.

We had a very large High Priests Group and almost no non-Young-Single-Adult elders.

When they organized a YSA ward about the time I came home, they actually pretty much disbanded the Elders Quorum, and made a single Melchizedek Priesthood Group. The former Elders Quorum President was made the second assistant in the MP group. (I think this practice is officially banned in the handbook now).

My current ward in North Carolina covers a MUCH larger area, (100+ square miles) and has a more diverse age/socio-economic mix. But our elders quorurm still struggles to get more than about 10-12 there on a Sunday. Many of the active Elders serve in Primary or Young Mens callings.

[LDSToronto]

Not at all the same question.

BCSpace explicitly spoke of multiple High Priests' quorums in a single ward. No such condition exists, nor is possible. Whether a Quorum President could, would, or should establish two or more High Priests' Groups in a single ward is up to him. It's his stewardship, and he knows the situation better than you or I do. But he cannot make a second quorum in his stake, much less one of his wards. That's not an option to him.

Lehi

BCSpace said this: "If your ward has more than one quorum in the HP, EQ, or YM organizations..."

I chalked it up to a type-o, and not a declaration of doctrine.

H.

[BCSpace]

I also corrected myself in post #16. My posts aren't the word of God until I've had a chance to review and correct them.