God Is An Atheist

[Gillebre]

Yeah, man. Starbase Kolob is pretty far away.

~27,000 light years is pretty far. imo anyway.

[mfbukowski]

From the Catechism:

http://www.vatican.v...G0015/__P1J.HTM

The true man may be finite, but the true God is not.

Placeholder until a Catholic speaks up......

Ah yes.

The good old "two nature" ploy. That of course makes one wonder what "nature" means if someone has two of them. How do you know there aren't 3 or 27 natures, that "nature" does not describe all those pesky "attributes"? Once you start multiplying abstractions that doesn't mean much because you pluck them out of the air and see them everywhere.

Why not use Occam's razor and just say he is corporeal and his influence can be everywhere?

Oh wait. That would be our idea.

I think in these days with the internet etc it's pretty easy to imagine that if a world leader could address the entire world at once simultaneously if there was a need to, it isn't hard to imagine that God could do it better.

He doesn't need a cell phone, but he can still talk to each of us. Is that really so hard to imagine?

Edited March 15, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Zakuska]

Bold mine. Yes it is a contradiction in terms. Have you heard this posited from non-LDS Christians?

I do think the notion of "unobservable matter" is also a contradiction of terms.

You seem to have forgotten about "Dark Matter"?

We can't see or observe it but whe know its there because we can see how things around it react to it.

[tana]

You seem to have forgotten about "Dark Matter"?

We can't see or observe it but whe know its there because we can see how things around it react to it.

What seems crazy to me, is that out of all of the phenomena that comes with this existence that is not made of substance and is immeasurable.... The LDS worldview wants to have consciousness made out of substance.

[tana]

Just a couple of questions;

If entities exist in their most primal state in this *intelligence realm*, at what point are they first held accountable for their behaviour, is it in this, the intelligence realm, is it in the pre-existence at a certain age, or is it at age eight in the mortal? Why?

If all entities exist in this primary intelligence realm, as is, as unique, separate, sentient intelligences, how can there ever be a pecking order? Who is ultimately in charge?

Doesn't this indicate a finite number of original entities? I mean, if souls were in the beginning with god, developed, sentient, there can be no replenishment loop....where new entities are created from scratch. This would mean that eventually the system must crash as new gods will run out of souls for their worlds.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

According to LDS doctrine, God is a spaceman. He finds himself bound to physical laws of motion. He did not/can not create Ex nihilo, matter, yet his physical body is made of this matter.

Further, his/our spirit is also made of matter. *more fine matter*.

This is an over simplification. We have Spacemen here on earth (well we did...we go there now) who cannot move matter, or organize into "worlds heretofore formed".

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

~27,000 light years is pretty far. imo anyway.

I can't stand a two hour car drive.

[tana]

This is an over simplification. We have Spacemen here on earth (well we did...we go there now) who cannot move matter, or organize into "worlds heretofore formed".

Pa Pa, I feel like this was talked about earlier in the thread.

Do you have any thoughts on these questions:

If entities exist in their most primal state in this *intelligence realm*, at what point are they first held accountable for their behaviour, is it in this, the intelligence realm, is it in the pre-existence at a certain age, or is it at age eight in the mortal? Why?

If all entities exist in this primary intelligence realm, as is, as unique, separate, sentient intelligences, how can there ever be a pecking order? Who is ultimately in charge?

Doesn't this indicate a finite number of original entities? I mean, if souls were in the beginning with god, developed, sentient, there can be no replenishment loop....where new entities are created from scratch. This would mean that eventually the system must crash as new gods will run out of souls for their worlds.

[CV75]

Just a couple of questions;

If entities exist in their most primal state in this *intelligence realm*, at what point are they first held accountable for their behaviour, is it in this, the intelligence realm, is it in the pre-existence at a certain age, or is it at age eight in the mortal? Why?

If all entities exist in this primary intelligence realm, as is, as unique, separate, sentient intelligences, how can there ever be a pecking order? Who is ultimately in charge?

Doesn't this indicate a finite number of original entities? I mean, if souls were in the beginning with god, developed, sentient, there can be no replenishment loop....where new entities are created from scratch. This would mean that eventually the system must crash as new gods will run out of souls for their worlds.

I think they become accountable when they voluntarily subject themselves to another (presumably greater) intelligence that becomes their “father”. This establishes the hierarchy, an outgrowth of who they love, by choice. When through the course of this relationship they enter into new estates under the guidance and protection of their “father”, standards of accountability are modified until they can handle the new estate.

I think that what we call individual intelligences might never stop self-replicating and entangling the “replicants.” Multiple intelligences are really the same intelligence moving sufficiently “fast” to appear, act and even subjectively experience as if it were many intelligences, and even doing so in contradictory ways to allow individual agency: http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/08/13-03.html & http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-microphone

[mfbukowski]

You seem to have forgotten about "Dark Matter"?

We can't see or observe it but whe know its there because we can see how things around it react to it.

I would call that an observation

[mfbukowski]

What seems crazy to me, is that out of all of the phenomena that comes with this existence that is not made of substance and is immeasurable.... The LDS worldview wants to have consciousness made out of substance.

And what would those be?

[tana]

And what would those be?

Hmm.... A trick question?

How about; the fundamental forces, which are still forces distinct from their *messenger particle*, and; the fabric of space/time?

Are you trying to say that forces are made of particles?

Would it be accurate to say that without a force, a mover, the particle would be static?

[tana]

I think that what we call individual intelligences might never stop self-replicating and entangling the “replicants.” Multiple intelligences are really the same intelligence moving sufficiently “fast” to appear, act and even subjectively experience as if it were many intelligences, and even doing so in contradictory ways to allow individual agency: http://news.sciencem...8/08/13-03.html & http://www.scientifi...ntum-microphone

Thanks CV.

I believe this is the only way it can work....there has to be a replenishment loop. Which in my mind makes existence at its core....one awareness....After that, this awareness can split up and do whatever it wants to for as long as it wants to. But eventually, when we decide to, all there can be is returning to the father.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa, I feel like this was talked about earlier in the thread.

Do you have any thoughts on these questions:

I just re-read the OP and responded to you personally. But calling God merely a "spaceman" is an attempt to belittle our cherished beliefs. Not by you but the term.

[tana]

I just re-read the OP and responded to you personally. But calling God merely a "spaceman" is an attempt to belittle our cherished beliefs. Not by you but the term.

I understand. I apologise for using the term spaceman.

If I were to replace 'spaceman' with 'scientist'....I think possibly this may be less offensive, but in my mind it has god just as pigeonholed.

If God is a scientist, he will never be master of his domain. He will always be a product of it.

For God to be more than this he must not be bound by physical laws of motion. He must be able to create anything imaginable from his imagination without a chain of events before this thought or after.

[CV75]

Thanks CV.

I believe this is the only way it can work....there has to be a replenishment loop. Which in my mind makes existence at its core....one awareness....After that, this awareness can split up and do whatever it wants to for as long as it wants to. But eventually, when we decide to, all there can be is returning to the father.

Except in an “eternal” dynamic, replenishing and depletion are not part of how I see these replicating and entangling processes working, because everything already “is” (existence) and continues doing what it “does” (go faster). The forces we see at play in this world may still apply but are superseded by other laws we haven’t yet discovered or mastered. That’s where belief comes in—and I use that word “belief” because I’m not sure whether any of what I posited is true enough to qualify as “faith”!!! But at least it is based on extrapolating from what we have already seen as possible.

[CV75]

Are you trying to say that forces are made of particles?

(made of matter)

[Matthew J. Tandy]

If God is a scientist, he will never be master of his domain. He will always be a product of it.

For God to be more than this he must not be bound by physical laws of motion. He must be able to create anything imaginable from his imagination without a chain of events before this thought or after.

I disagree. A "scientist" God is not, but perhaps he once was to get to where he is now. He is an exalted being. That means he has risen above whatever he once was and achieved what can only be described as the existence of a God.

The beleif that God creates things out of his imagination implies there is either a scientific explanation for how he does it (a special "God" organ perhaps that is the size of the cosmos?), or that ther eis none and thus it is impossible for such a being to exist. If there is a scientific explanation, even if it cannot be replicated by anyone other than God (assuming he is the only one who can have such ability), then that means he is bound by certain laws.

[CV75]

Although now that I think of it, such a system could “fuel” itself through the resulting poles as its entangled replicants differentiate into that which “acts” and that which is “acted upon.”

[tana]

(made of matter)

Do you have any theory for how quantum spirit particles might behave? Have you seen this yet...."Largest Molecules Yet Behave Like Waves in Quantum Double-Slit Experiment"

What is the state of spirit matter when it is in its wave form, unobserved and unmeasured?

Here's a crazy one. If mortal matter is all a hologram....I wonder what spirit matter could be.

[CV75]

Do you have any theory for how quantum spirit particles might behave? Have you seen this yet...."Largest Molecules Yet Behave Like Waves in Quantum Double-Slit Experiment"

What is the state of spirit matter when it is in its wave form, unobserved and unmeasured?

Here's a crazy one. If mortal matter is all a hologram....I wonder what spirit matter could be.

Since my approach to this is more intuitive and imaginative than scientific, my response is rather simplistic—that matter and waves are fundamentally the same thing. Maybe matter is an odd-behaving wave that has been placed from one estate into another. I like the comment, “50 percent would say this is normal because it's quantum physics, and the other 50 percent would really scratch their heads because it's quantum physics."

If a spiritual being or an intelligence is homogeneous in his makeup (and clearly from our perspective his mortal counterpart is not), the mechanics of his being a self-directed hologram projected into our dimension, and even as a wave into a material body, is much simplified with little or no distortion of either as they operates in tandem.

[Stargazer]

This can't have already been posted in this thread:

[tana]

Although now that I think of it, such a system could “fuel” itself through the resulting poles as its entangled replicants differentiate into that which “acts” and that which is “acted upon.”

But isn't fueling itself calling in an outside force?

How can a particle ever move itself.....it is a point with no dimensions. It would need feet, feathers or flippers.....and intelligence. But it has no structure or mechanism. It is indivisible and mindless. It is not measurable by its length or breadth....only by the amount of force it takes to move it. It has never been seen by a human eye, we only see it as a representation of the trail it leaves on an instrument....Its history. Particles never touch each other. It would take an infinite amount of energy to overcome the electrostatic repulsion....I think.

The trouble with calling in Tarski for help here is he would probably poke as many holes in my story as yours.....

Tarski: Are particles movers and shakers in and of themselves....or must there be a separate force?

Edited March 31, 2012 by tana

[mfbukowski]

Hmm.... A trick question?

How about; the fundamental forces, which are still forces distinct from their *messenger particle*, and; the fabric of space/time?

Are you trying to say that forces are made of particles?

Would it be accurate to say that without a force, a mover, the particle would be static?

Please read what you yourself wrote and square it with the above:

What seems crazy to me, is that out of all of the phenomena that comes with this existence that is not made of substance and is immeasurable.... The LDS worldview wants to have consciousness made out of substance.

I never said anything about particles. According to you, forces are "substances". Good luck with that one. Or maybe they are "immeasurable". I think you are mistaken about that.

[KevinG]

If mortal matter is all a hologram....I wonder what spirit matter could be.

Holygram.