Butter And Honey Isaiah 7:15

[maklelan]

So from the theological point of view it doesn't really make a lot of difference what you translate it as. In one case it translates, "He will eat butter and honey until ...," and in the other case it reads, "He will eat cheese and honey until ...". In either case, the essence of the message is that he will eat dairy food and honey until ... It doesn't make much difference to the essence of the message which way you translate it, wouldn't you agree?

The translation should facilitate understanding the rhetorical point, and here the point is that the food will be uncultivated or nomadic food. The point is that Israel's civilization has been crippled and the child is growing up during its rebuilding. "Curds" facilitates that understanding in my mind better than "butter." The latter is semantically associated with luxury, not a nomadic lifestyle.

[maklelan]

Thank you. That was a bit difficult to read; but from what I was able to get out of it, it actually describes the making of butter rather than cheese. The process of putting milk in animal skin and shaking (churning) it actually produces butter, not cheese; and it is a process that is still carried out in various pars of the Middle East as I described in a previous post.

Actually both products come from storage of milk in animal skins. Butter is made from inflated skins that are rocked until the mechanical process creates butter. Cheese requires the actual stomach, not just the outer skin, and the enzymes produced by the bacteria in the stomach (called rennet) catalyze the chemical process that creates cheese.

[Calm]

Never mind

Edited February 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Traditionally in the Middle East, sheep butter (and presumably also goat butter) were made of cultured milk. The milk was basically turned into yoghurt, the yoghurt was diluted with water and placed in the skins of animals and "churned" (repeatedly shaken) until the fatty globules would coagulate to form butter. Very tasty too!

PS. A picture is better than a thousand words!:

Another image from the 19th Cehtury:

A little bit more effort than I want to go to.

[zerinus]

The translation should facilitate understanding the rhetorical point, and here the point is that the food will be uncultivated or nomadic food. The point is that Israel's civilization has been crippled and the child is growing up during its rebuilding. "Curds" facilitates that understanding in my mind better than "butter." The latter is semantically associated with luxury, not a nomadic lifestyle.

I know for a fact that that is not true. In those cultures they consume butter as much as cheese. Their cooking for example is done with clarified butter. They melt the butter to separate the fat from the milk solids and any water remaining in it, and use the pure fat for cooking and frying. It has a distinctive and tasty flavor. Fried eggs made in that butter is absolutely delicious! All of their dairy products in fact have a very distinctive and tasty flavor. The flavor comes from the vegetation the animals feed on. They feed on wild vegetation and flowers that grow in the mountains in that region, and it imparts that distinctive and tasty flavor to their dairy products. I am not just referring to the nomadic Bedouins in Palestine or neighbouring countries. That practice is common through the Middle East including Iran, Turkey, the Kurdish areas etc. where I have had the experience of tasting their foods. And in any case, Isaiah 7:22 talks about an "abundance of milk," not a scarcity of milk.

[Calm]

The latter is semantically associated with luxury, not a nomadic lifestyle.

Are you speaking in terms of modern association or was this a common perception in the past? I was thinking modern associations with both butter and honey with luxury/pleasure rather than 'found' foods might be confusing when I read it.

[zerinus]

A little bit more effort than I want to go to.

The churning process was not always done the same throughout the Middle East. Those pictures show how the Bedouin Arabs do it, by hanging it from a tripod. In other parts of the Middle east they adopt a different churning method. They put the filled animal skin on a flat surface, with two women sitting on either end, and the women rock the liquid back and forth between them with their hands by pushing and shoving their end of the filled skin until it was churned. I bet it was the funest part of the process, and they enjoyed doing it!

Edited February 10, 2012 by zerinus

[maklelan]

I know for a fact that that is not true. In those cultures they consume butter as much as cheese.

The question is what modern English speakers will understand, though.

Their cooking for example is done with clarified butter. They melt the butter to separate the fat from the milk solids and any water remaining in it, and use the pure fat for cooking and frying. It has a distinctive and tasty flavor. Fried eggs made in that butter is absolutely delicious! All of their dairy products in fact have a very distinctive and tasty flavor. The flavor comes from the vegetation the animals feed on. They feed on wild vegetation and flowers that grow in the mountains in that region, and it imparts that distinctive and tasty flavor to their dairy products. I am not just referring to the nomadic Bedouins in Palestine or neighbouring countries. That practice is common through the Middle East including Iran, Turkey, the Kurdish areas etc. where I have had the experience of tasting their foods. And in any case, Isaiah 7:22 talks about an "abundance of milk," not a scarcity of milk.

And I never suggested the text refers to a scarcity of milk. You can't have curds without milk. It's not a famine, it's just a civilization that doesn't have all the agricultural foundations it once had.

[maklelan]

Are you speaking in terms of modern association or was this a common perception in the past? I was thinking modern associations with both butter and honey with luxury/pleasure rather than 'found' foods might be confusing when I read it.

Modern associations. The question is what translation will facilitate understanding among modern English speakers.

[volgadon]

Traditionally in the Middle East, sheep butter (and presumably also goat butter) were made of cultured milk. The milk was basically turned into yoghurt, the yoghurt was diluted with water and placed in the skins of animals and "churned" (repeatedly shaken) until the fatty globules would coagulate to form butter. Very tasty too!

PS. A picture is better than a thousand words!:

Another image from the 19th Cehtury:

There are still people in Israel and Palestine who make labaneh that way. I miss it for breakfast.

[zerinus]

There are still people in Israel and Palestine who make labaneh that way. I miss it for breakfast.

There are still people all over the Middle East who make it that way!

[volgadon]

What is telling is the lack of bread or grean. "Butter" was consumed on a daily basis, and honey might be interpreted as the commoner fruit honey rather than the kind found in crags, but the staff of settled, agricultural life is missing.

[Calm]

Fruit honey?

[volgadon]

Fruit honey?

A very thick syrup made of either dates, grapes or figs.

[Maidservant]

You are now embarking on some kind of mystical / Kabbalistic interpretation whose existence I do not completely deny; but too much focus on which can blind us to the more significant and obvious readings which contain the meaning that the Lord might want us to understand at the present time. If you look at the interpretations that Nephi gives of the long passages of Isaiah that he quotes in the Book of Mormon for example (2 Nephi chapters 25 to 30), it is not a mystical or metaphysical interpretation. He gives the meaning in "plainness," as he understands it. I think that too much focus on the mystical meaning can divert our attention from the more obvious meaning which would be of greater interest to us at the present time.

I appreciate the lens with which you have chosen to understand the words of the scriptures, and by all means you should do what you feel led to do, but I challenge your frame that because I wanted to understand what the ancient Hebrew understanding of "butter and honey" as a symbolism, that I am heading into mystical (whatever that means, and as if that was a mistake). Those are your categories, not mine.

And I understand what the Lord wants me to understand. I read "Butter and honey" and the Lord said, "Go found out more about what that means." It was pretty simple . In fact, I was reading in Nephi when I read it, that's where I am studying is the Book of Mormon at this time (all the time). Admittedly, I haven't gotten as far as Nephi's commentaries (this time round).

But I trust insights from lots of places (including yours, thank you, I'm really enjoying the pictures and explanation of the milk, butter, honey etc from the past and still today) and let these insights stew and ponder on them and weave them together and together with my own life experiences and observations, and allow it to strengthen me and then I go forward. I don't even need any single passage of scripture to mean the same thing when I come back round again. In this case of this verse, I don't think you would say that the ONLY thing he ATE was butter and honey, so obviously there is more to know here, in between the lines, of one sort of another. Especially since Isaiah is particularly poetic and symbolic, deliberately so.

Also, for me to comment that it can refer to life in general as a process of coming to know good from evil . . . I am not necessarily presenting that as a meaning of the scripture . . . rather that is something I do second nature with all scriptures which is to liken it to myself. The reading in Isaiah is important as an understanding of the Savior; but it is even more important as an understanding of myself (the Savior is the template human).

Anyway, I always appreciate and enjoy what you have to say, zerinus, and it causes me to think, but due to your comment, I felt like expanding on where I am coming from.

[zerinus]

I appreciate the lens with which you have chosen to understand the words of the scriptures, and by all means you should do what you feel led to do, but I challenge your frame that because I wanted to understand what the ancient Hebrew understanding of "butter and honey" as a symbolism, that I am heading into mystical (whatever that means, and as if that was a mistake). Those are your categories, not mine.

And I understand what the Lord wants me to understand. I read "Butter and honey" and the Lord said, "Go found out more about what that means." It was pretty simple . In fact, I was reading in Nephi when I read it, that's where I am studying is the Book of Mormon at this time (all the time). Admittedly, I haven't gotten as far as Nephi's commentaries (this time round).

But I trust insights from lots of places (including yours, thank you, I'm really enjoying the pictures and explanation of the milk, butter, honey etc from the past and still today) and let these insights stew and ponder on them and weave them together and together with my own life experiences and observations, and allow it to strengthen me and then I go forward. I don't even need any single passage of scripture to mean the same thing when I come back round again. In this case of this verse, I don't think you would say that the ONLY thing he ATE was butter and honey, so obviously there is more to know here, in between the lines, of one sort of another. Especially since Isaiah is particularly poetic and symbolic, deliberately so.

Also, for me to comment that it can refer to life in general as a process of coming to know good from evil . . . I am not necessarily presenting that as a meaning of the scripture . . . rather that is something I do second nature with all scriptures which is to liken it to myself. The reading in Isaiah is important as an understanding of the Savior; but it is even more important as an understanding of myself (the Savior is the template human).

Anyway, I always appreciate and enjoy what you have to say, zerinus, and it causes me to think, but due to your comment, I felt like expanding on where I am coming from.

I am sure you are right. I did not mean to disparage your way of understanding the scriptures. Symbolism is certainly an important part of understanding the prophets, and I have devoted the longest chapter of my book to that aspect of the subject.

[Nevo]

I was wondering if there was anyone who has studied Isaiah, or anyone with knowledge of Hebrew symbolisms who would be willing to share what 'butter and honey' might signify? Thank you. I've been googling it, but I get multiple and contradictory ideas (i.e. that it means peace, it means war, etc etc etc).

Perhaps you've already seen these sources, but here are a couple of commentaries that I found:

It has long been recognized that the image of 'curds and honey' has a dual meaning. It can be a symbol of desolation, when no food is left in a devastated arable land except the wild produce of the wilderness. However, it can also be a symbol of abundance, such as a land 'flowing with curds and honey'.

— Brevard S. Childs, Isaiah (OTL; Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2001), 68.

The reference to 'curds and honey' (vv. 15, 22) is unclear: they are either delicacies the survivors are privileged to enjoy (so several rabbinic commentators) or meager provisions left after the punishment. The passage exemplifies the ambivalent tone of Isaiah's doctrine of the surviving remnant: one is not sure whether the description of this future is to be viewed negatively (since only a remnant endure) or positively (since they do in fact endure).

— Benjamin D. Sommer, in The Jewish Study Bible, ed. A. Berlin and M.Z. Brettler (New York: Oxford University Press, 2004), 799.

The reference to 'curds and honey' as Immanuel’s food is taken by a number of commentators to refer to idyllic circumstances (as in the phrase 'a land flowing with milk and honey'—Exod 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Deut 6:3; etc.) or even to ambrosial nourishment provided for a divine infant in some myths. Neither would suit the threatening context of Isaiah’s situation, and this is given as reason for the elimination of the verse—though it is sometimes rejected on other grounds, too. However, while a land 'flowing with milk and honey'—even if that cliché were used here, instead of the relatively rare 'curds and honey'—was an apt manner in which to describe an ideal land in Israel’s nomad days, an Israel settled in its own land thought of the ideal in terms of corn and wine and oil. For these and other reasons, the majority of scholars see the expression as indicating a land that has been devastated; no agriculture is possible, and so the only food available is wild honey and the produce of the flocks. (Vv 21–25, separate compositions but probably closely related in historical context to vv 10–17, indicate tiny flocks and difficult times in a land where agriculture has been rendered impossible.) The meaning would thus be that, owing to Ahaz’ misguided policy, Immanuel would grow up under difficult circumstances in a devastated land.

— Joseph Jensen, "Immanuel," in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, ed. D.N. Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 3:394.

Milk and honey were the original trademarks of the promised land (Exod 3:8, 17; 33:3). Fat and milk were generally regarded as signs of abundance in the ancient Near East, and milk and honey were used in cultic activity in Mesopotamia. Isaiah, then, is assuring Ahaz that the Davidic line will survive and prosper. Such a rosy prediction, however, would be difficult to reconcile with the ominous names of the prophet’s children, and in fact there is also another side to it. This is brought out in a series of additions to the passage, each introduced by the formula “on that day.” Isaiah 7:21–25 explains that “on that day” everyone will eat curds and honey because the population will be decimated. Moreover, the vineyards will be ravaged and there will be little agriculture, but cattle will be let loose and people will live off the natural produce of the land. They will still have milk and honey, but not the vineyards and wine to which they have become accustomed. Ahaz might not appreciate a diet of milk and honey, but it would nonetheless be good, even wonderful. We sense here the same kind of irony that is implied in the name “A Remnant Shall Return.” Isaiah was not prophesying easy deliverance, but he was affirming that the promises to David would be honored.

— John J. Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2004), 312.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Nevo

[CV75]

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good." Isaiah 7:15 also 2 Nephi 17:15.

I think this verse from Isaiah can be considered in line with Jesus’ statement in John 4:34, “Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.” Eating symbolizes submission of will (as in the Sacrament prayer), acceptance of a mission (Revelation 10:10), and alignment and incorporation of God’s truth and will into one’s person (D&C 88:67). We are thus “filled” (3 Nephi 18: 4, 5, 9) with this kind of spiritual eating.

As we acquire spiritual goodness and godliness through faith, we more easily and distinctly discern that which is evil (the brighter the light, the darker the darkness becomes in relation to it). Jesus accomplished this in perfection, all His life.

So I think Isaiah 7:15 is a reference to Jesus’ ability, even as a young child, to do, say, think and desire only that which is good (spiritually), filling Himself with all that the Father gave or commanded Him. Eating only sweet things represents this principle, and receiving godliness through faith and obedience, with a “filled” attribute of godliness being to know to refuse the evil and choose the good, as well as having faith to do so. This is how Jesus grew from grace to grace (D& 93:11-13) unto perfection, without ever tasting “disgrace” by refusing it.

[ebeddoulos]

Wrong place for the post

Edited February 13, 2012 by ebeddoulos

[cindy_charlene]

I realize this is an old post, but today I was looking to see what the answer others gave to my question  about the meaning of this verse and found these answers.  I never fully understood before, though I have questioned the meaning several times.  Today the answer was given to me by the spirit.  Since no one I read had explained it the way I see it I thought I would post my interpretation, that may only apply to me, but may be of help to someone else looking for the same answer. 

 

We know there are different levels of understanding at different times in our lives.  I may be way off where others are concerned but here is my interpretation. I have to give a little back ground first.

 

I have struggled with a sugar addiction all my life.  I learned to turn to sweets when sad, upset, feeling unloved and unlovable and not only in those times but to celebrate good times or just plain bored and wanted the taste in my mouth.  Needless to say, I have suffered many physical maladies do to my addiction. 

 

In all my studies turning to things of this world for solace or love or whatever the spiritual need, instead of turning to the Lord for our spiritual needs to be met, is in essence a form of idolatry.  I knew my only help in overcoming my addiction was to turned to the Lord for help. 

 

In my extremities I found Him.  The most incredible experience I have ever had and is now my guiding light was to be given the gift of charity.   I tasted of the fruit of the tree of life and in order to live with that kind of love forever, that is sweeter than sweet and whiter than white I will give away all that I possess even my sugar addiction. I now know that is why I was to pray with all the energy of my heart for the gift of charity.  It is not my love for myself and others that I first needed but His love first for me that will guide me back home to Him.

 

Butter and honey is sweet but there is no comparison to the sweetness of His unconditional love. 

 

Butter and honey was, according to one post, plentiful in Jesus day.  It could have easily become an addiction or in other words something someone could learn to turn to when spiritually hungry for love or even momentary peace or whatever. 

 

Jesus suffered all the temptations that we as individuals do, so is it not likely that he suffered the temptation to turn to butter and honey, the richest of desserts at that time, to calm his nerves or to celebrate or whatever the reason?  Yet He was without sin we know and I am sure that was because He learned early to turn to the Father instead of butter and honey for His spiritual needs.  I am sure butter and honey are good and not sins to use, only excess of anything good is. 

 

Heavenly Father's desires that we also, turn to Him for our spiritual needs to be fulfilled and that comes only with spiritual gifts.  That is the good I am to choose. I need the all the gifts of the spirit, temperance included. It is the gifts of the spirit that give us the strength to overcome the flesh.

 

James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

 

I am far from perfect in love, but I am growing toward the light.as I take upon myself the image of Christ.   For me refined sugar and refined food products set up a craving that is most difficult to overcome so as for me I choose to eliminate refined foods all together.  Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

Love, Charlene

 

[Calm]

Welcome to the board and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Tacenda]

I realize this is an old post, but today I was looking to see what the answer others gave to my question about the meaning of this verse and found these answers. I never fully understood before, though I have questioned the meaning several times. Today the answer was given to me by the spirit. Since no one I read had explained it the way I see it I thought I would post my interpretation, that may only apply to me, but may be of help to someone else looking for the same answer.

We know there are different levels of understanding at different times in our lives. I may be way off where others are concerned but here is my interpretation. I have to give a little back ground first.

I have struggled with a sugar addiction all my life. I learned to turn to sweets when sad, upset, feeling unloved and unlovable and not only in those times but to celebrate good times or just plain bored and wanted the taste in my mouth. Needless to say, I have suffered many physical maladies do to my addiction.

In all my studies turning to things of this world for solace or love or whatever the spiritual need, instead of turning to the Lord for our spiritual needs to be met, is in essence a form of idolatry. I knew my only help in overcoming my addiction was to turned to the Lord for help.

In my extremities I found Him. The most incredible experience I have ever had and is now my guiding light was to be given the gift of charity. I tasted of the fruit of the tree of life and in order to live with that kind of love forever, that is sweeter than sweet and whiter than white I will give away all that I possess even my sugar addiction. I now know that is why I was to pray with all the energy of my heart for the gift of charity. It is not my love for myself and others that I first needed but His love first for me that will guide me back home to Him.

Butter and honey is sweet but there is no comparison to the sweetness of His unconditional love.

Butter and honey was, according to one post, plentiful in Jesus day. It could have easily become an addiction or in other words something someone could learn to turn to when spiritually hungry for love or even momentary peace or whatever.

Jesus suffered all the temptations that we as individuals do, so is it not likely that he suffered the temptation to turn to butter and honey, the richest of desserts at that time, to calm his nerves or to celebrate or whatever the reason? Yet He was without sin we know and I am sure that was because He learned early to turn to the Father instead of butter and honey for His spiritual needs. I am sure butter and honey are good and not sins to use, only excess of anything good is.

Heavenly Father's desires that we also, turn to Him for our spiritual needs to be fulfilled and that comes only with spiritual gifts. That is the good I am to choose. I need the all the gifts of the spirit, temperance included. It is the gifts of the spirit that give us the strength to overcome the flesh.

James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

I am far from perfect in love, but I am growing toward the light.as I take upon myself the image of Christ. For me refined sugar and refined food products set up a craving that is most difficult to overcome so as for me I choose to eliminate refined foods all together. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

Love, Charlene

Thanks Charlene! Your post caught my eye. As I probably do the same also, but turn to caffeine for a crutch instead of sugar, or probably sugar too.

Today I've struggled more than usual with my beliefs. Since my faith crisis I've been looking at other churches hoping to find one that would fill the large shoes of the LDS church. One church's website seemed to have some good stuff. They are very world wide service oriented and have ways to alleviate a lot of world hunger, etc.

Then I checked the photo album of the community, in a town nearby. Of course it being in Utah, there were not the attendees that would anywhere match what we LDS have the luxury of enjoying such as people of all ages to relate to, etc. No, in this particular church it looked like they were in their middle to old age time of life, very few youth or 20-30 age group.

There were women clergy which was nice to see. But I was still not ready to write that church time down and attend soon, nope.

Then I saw something I needed desperately. I saw a comic type strip with the following dialogue. (And they used my real name in it!! But I need to conceal that here so I'll go by my avatar name. It was like a sign, ok I'd like to think it was. But this was what it said and to describe better, it showed a modern woman speaking to Jesus in each slide.)

Slide #1 Tacenda: "What can I do for you today Jesus?"

Slide #2 Jesus: "Well that's refreshing Tacenda. Keep your eyes open, you'll know it when you see it."

Slide #3 Tacenda: "Oh, this is exciting. It's like I'm on a secret mission! Who knew following you could be so much fun?"

Slide # 4 Jesus: "I never intended it to be drudgery, Tacenda."

I know this is simple, but it was certainly what I needed to jump start my dead spiritual battery.

I've let everything go as far as my spiritual side, I do the physical...show up for church, fulfill my calling, go visiting teaching, things like that.  But my scripture reading and praying were put off until I thought I could believe in them. Hah, probably have it backwards.

Hopefully I'll do as this comic strip type message prompted me to do. Edited to fix mistakes and say good luck in your journey with Christ, Charlene!

Edited August 21, 2014 by Tacenda

[katherine the great]

I was always under the impression that butter was a more European thing. I know the Romans looked down their noses at the butter eating barbarians. Olive oil was "civilized" food.

[cindy_charlene]

Tacenda, I have a very strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.  I worked very  hard at "doing" all the right things required.  My works will and never will save me. However as it reads in Gal 3 24_25, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we may be justified by faith but after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."  My works were just that, MY works for my glory and I didn't feel the spirit of love when doing it like I should have or the love I wanted so much from others for doing it.  I needed validation from others for a job well done.  I more or less did what I was supposed to out of a sense of duty and yet I did have a measure of faith that what I was doing was right. 

 

Until I really delved into the scriptures and did not neglect my prayers and journal writing, nor temple attendance,  I did not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  It is my considered opinion now just as the spirit whispered to me  some years ago," the law is right and good but the spirit is essential.  Part of that law is to not neglect prayer and searching, pondering and praying about the scriptures,  I finally learned through I had to have the spirit in order to be justified in my works and that even as faith without works is dead, so works with out faith is dead also.  My works would never save me but they were important because they brought me to Christ and I was able to humbly accepting my weakness in loving those I served and also myself.  As I said in my above post that is when I prayed with all my heart for the gift of charity.  It was a born again experience and has made all the difference in my attitude about service in the church which by the way the spirit also told me. " Service in the church is not just a nice thing to do. It gives us opportunity to rub shoulders with imperfect people and thus grow in our ability to have charity"  And that because we recognize our lack and must rely wholly upon the merits of Jesus Christ to save us from our natural man that tends to  take offense and hold grudges.  God bless you in your search for truth.

Charlene 

[ERayR]

Butter and honey and how about some fresh hot homemade bread.