Butter And Honey Isaiah 7:15

[Maidservant]

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good." Isaiah 7:15 also 2 Nephi 17:15.

I was wondering if there was anyone who has studied Isaiah, or anyone with knowledge of Hebrew symbolisms who would be willing to share what 'butter and honey' might signify? Thank you. I've been googling it, but I get multiple and contradictory ideas (i.e. that it means peace, it means war, etc etc etc).

[guitarist]

I always took it to mean a steady diet of Land 'O Lakes & Clover Maid. I'd be interested in hearing alternative theories

[maklelan]

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good." Isaiah 7:15 also 2 Nephi 17:15.

I was wondering if there was anyone who has studied Isaiah, or anyone with knowledge of Hebrew symbolisms who would be willing to share what 'butter and honey' might signify? Thank you. I've been googling it, but I get multiple and contradictory ideas (i.e. that it means peace, it means war, etc etc etc).

Butter and honey are things someone living in a time of distress will find to eat. It's a contrast to the products of cultivated land (cf. Isa 5:7-10).

[Maidservant]

I always took it to mean a steady diet of Land 'O Lakes & Clover Maid. I'd be interested in hearing alternative theories

He he.

Butter and honey are things someone living in a time of distress will find to eat. It's a contrast to the products of cultivated land (cf. Isa 5:7-10).

Thank you! Now . . . also it causes me to wonder how this produces a person who is able to choose good and refuse evil. Hmmmmm . . . .

[Calm]

Butter and honey are things someone living in a time of distress will find to eat. It's a contrast to the products of cultivated land (cf. Isa 5:7-10).

Isn't butter a product of cultivation or am I thinking too much like modern man with our dairy farms, etc.

I wonder what wild goat butter tastes like. Maybe I'll beg some goat cream off of my neighbour one of these days and make some...though not wild. I love goat cheeses and prefer goat milk to cow's milk now (a nuttier flavour).

Edited February 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[zerinus]

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good." Isaiah 7:15 also 2 Nephi 17:15.

I was wondering if there was anyone who has studied Isaiah, or anyone with knowledge of Hebrew symbolisms who would be willing to share what 'butter and honey' might signify? Thank you. I've been googling it, but I get multiple and contradictory ideas (i.e. that it means peace, it means war, etc etc etc).

I don’t think that the words butter and honey have any special significance, unless you want to go into a deeply mystical interpretation. I think that this verse should be read in connection with 7: 22: “And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.” Both verses refer to a period of time when, for one reason or another, there will be an abundant supply of milk and honey, so that it will provide the diet of the people. In 7:15, where it says, “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good” means that this will be his main diet until he becomes a discerning adult. It doesn’t mean that eating that diet will enhance his ability to know good and evil.

Edited February 10, 2012 by zerinus

[Storm Rider]

One of the great leaders in I knew in the mission field would always eat butter and honey for breakfast and would quote this verse often when others were around. I don't think he questioned if the verse had any deeper meaning, but that he was committed do anything to enhance that he would always choose right during a time of temptation and weakness. He was one of the most inspired men I have ever met.

[rodheadlee]

MMMMM butter and spun honey on wheat bread makes a great sandwich.

[Maidservant]

I don’t think that the words butter and honey have any special significance, unless you want to go into a deeply mystical interpretation. I think that this verse should be read in connection with 7: 22: “And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.” Both verses refer to a period of time when, for one reason or another, there will be an abundant supply of milk and honey, so that it will provide the diet of the people. In 7:15, where it says, “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good” means that this will be his main diet until he becomes a discerning adult. It doesn’t mean that eating that diet will enhance his ability to know good and evil.

Thanks. You are right that it is likely that it has nothing to do with diet leading to choosing the good . . . but the symbolism of the struggle, maybe that we all have to pass through in this life, to gain that knowledge.

" . . . . everyone . . . that is left in the land . . . " . . . sounds like distress to me.

[zerinus]

Thanks. You are right that it is likely that it has nothing to do with diet leading to choosing the good . . . but the symbolism of the struggle, maybe that we all have to pass through in this life, to gain that knowledge.

You are now embarking on some kind of mystical / Kabbalistic interpretation whose existence I do not completely deny; but too much focus on which can blind us to the more significant and obvious readings which contain the meaning that the Lord might want us to understand at the present time. If you look at the interpretations that Nephi gives of the long passages of Isaiah that he quotes in the Book of Mormon for example (2 Nephi chapters 25 to 30), it is not a mystical or metaphysical interpretation. He gives the meaning in "plainness," as he understands it. I think that too much focus on the mystical meaning can divert our attention from the more obvious meaning which would be of greater interest to us at the present time.

" . . . . everyone . . . that is left in the land . . . " . . . sounds like distress to me.

"Everyone that is left in the land" refers to the period of exile, the time when most of the Israelites are exiled from their ancestral homeland, and only a few of them will have been left behind.

[LeSellers]

I wonder what wild goat butter tastes like. Maybe I'll beg some goat cream off of my neighbour one of these days and make some...though not wild.

It's unlikely that you'd get any "goat cream". Goat milk is naturally homogenized, and the cream does not float to the top as it does cow's milk.

I doubt that there is any such thing as "goat butter" (nor sheep butter, for that matter—if I understand it correctly, sheep and goat milk are very similar). Without a centrifugal cream separator (a modern invention), the idea of goat milk cream is virtually impossible.

Of all domestic dairy animals, only cow's milk is suitable for making butter.

Lehi

[Calm]

It's unlikely that you'd get any "goat cream". Goat milk is naturally homogenized, and the cream does not float to the top as it does cow's milk.

I doubt that there is any such thing as "goat butter" (nor sheep butter, for that matter—if I understand it correctly, sheep and goat milk are very similar). Without a centrifugal cream separator (a modern invention), the idea of goat milk cream is virtually impossible.

Of all domestic dairy animals, only cow's milk is suitable for making butter.

Lehi

That explains why goat milk is so good too.

Apparently you can make butter with a lot more effort and patience: http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/1975-05-01/How-To-Make-Butter-From-Goatmilk.aspx

[maklelan]

חמאה really just means curdled milk.

[zerinus]

It's unlikely that you'd get any "goat cream". Goat milk is naturally homogenized, and the cream does not float to the top as it does cow's milk.

I doubt that there is any such thing as "goat butter" (nor sheep butter, for that matter—if I understand it correctly, sheep and goat milk are very similar). Without a centrifugal cream separator (a modern invention), the idea of goat milk cream is virtually impossible.

Of all domestic dairy animals, only cow's milk is suitable for making butter.

Lehi

You certainly can make butter from sheep and goat's milk. I have eaten sheep's butter. Back in the Middle East anciently, their main farm animals were sheep and goats, and their dairy products would have been made mainly from them.

[zerinus]

That explains why goat milk is so good too.

Apparently you can make butter with a lot more effort and patience: http://www.motherear...m-Goatmilk.aspx

Traditionally in the Middle East, sheep butter (and presumably also goat butter) were made of cultured milk. The milk was basically turned into yoghurt, the yoghurt was diluted with water and placed in the skins of animals and "churned" (repeatedly shaken) until the fatty globules would coagulate to form butter. Very tasty too!

PS. A picture is better than a thousand words!:

Another image from the 19th Cehtury:

Edited February 10, 2012 by zerinus

[ebeddoulos]

The hebrew word translated as "butter" in the King James Version is "חמאה" or "chemah". In the New King James Version (and others such as the NASB, LitV, NAB, NCV, etc.) "חמאה" is translated as curds. As pointed out by Maklelan, "חמאה really just means curdled milk". For a baby, curdled milk tastes nasty. Cottage cheese and yogurt are an acquired taste. On the other hand, honey is quite sweet and a baby will naturally take to it. This understanding opens up other interpretations.

[LeSellers]

honey is quite sweet and a baby will naturally take to it.

Of course, honey is now forbidden to babies because, in spite of millennia of maternal experience, scientists have determined that honey for infants is deadly (it might contain botulism spores that might grow and might harm the child, maybe).

Lehi

[zerinus]

The hebrew word translated as "butter" in the King James Version is "חמאה" or "chemah". In the New King James Version (and others such as the NASB, LitV, NAB, NCV, etc.) "חמאה" is translated as curds. As pointed out by Maklelan, "חמאה really just means curdled milk". For a baby, curdled milk tastes nasty. Cottage cheese and yogurt are an acquired taste. On the other hand, honey is quite sweet and a baby will naturally take to it. This understanding opens up other interpretations.

According to all the online dictionaries that I could find it means butter:

http://translate.goo...5D7%2594&anno=2

(Same page translated by Google into English: http://translate.goo...%26prmd%3Dimvns)

http://www.omegawiki...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://www.termwiki....utter_%E2%82%81

http://en.wiktionary...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://glosbe.com/hb...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://www.memrise.c...59196/butter-7/

http://www.lovewins....e/strongs/H2529

http://studybible.info/strongs/H2529

[zerinus]

Of course, honey is now forbidden to babies because, in spite of millennia of maternal experience, scientists have determined that honey for infants is deadly (it might contain botulism spores that might grow and might harm the child, maybe).

Lehi

That medical advice applies to infants under one year old. The "child" mentioned in In Isaiah 7:16 does not mean "infant". In ancient times infants were breastfed for two years before being weaned. There is no way that a 6 month old infant would have been given honey or butter to eat.

[maklelan]

According to all the online dictionaries that I could find it means butter:

http://translate.goo...5D7%2594&anno=2

(Same page translated by Google into English: http://translate.goo...%26prmd%3Dimvns)

http://www.omegawiki...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://www.termwiki....utter_%E2%82%81

http://en.wiktionary...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://glosbe.com/hb...%9E%D7%90%D7%94

http://www.memrise.c...59196/butter-7/

http://www.lovewins....e/strongs/H2529

http://studybible.info/strongs/H2529

Most of those are modern Hebrew, but the few that actually have to do with the Bible point out that it refers to curds. Strong's is kind of a misleading "dictionary," since all it does is tell you how the KJV has translated the terms. The reference here is technically to curdled milk, not butter. It's as simple as that.

[zerinus]

Most of those are modern Hebrew, but the few that actually have to do with the Bible point out that it refers to curds. Strong's is kind of a misleading "dictionary," since all it does is tell you how the KJV has translated the terms. The reference here is technically to curdled milk, not butter. It's as simple as that.

Thank you. Can you explain what you mean by "curdled milk"? My understanding of curdled milk is milk that is left outside the fridge for a few days, and goes off. It froths and tastes and smells foul. Is that what you mean by curdled milk, or do you mean something else?

[maklelan]

Thank you. Can you explain what you mean by "curdled milk"? My understanding of curdled milk is milk that is left outside the fridge for a few days, and goes off. It froths and tastes and smells foul. Is that what you mean by curdled milk, or do you mean something else?

It's curds, similar to cottage cheese.

[ebeddoulos]

According to all the online dictionaries that I could find it means butter:

By modern Hebrew usage, I would agree that "חמאה" generally means butter. Shucks even by ancient usage, one of its definitions may have meant butter. That said, there is more than one definition for "חמאה" as several of your own sources noted. I found a book which may be of some interest. It is called the "Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible" by Jeff A. Benner. It is an excellent resource and fairly recent - 2005. Enjoy.

I tried to reproduce a relevant part below but without the correct font, it does not display as it should. Suffice it to say where more than one definition exists, more than one translation can be had and more than one interpretation made.

Strongs #2529: AHLB#: 1174-E (N1)

1174) Mh% (Mh% HhM) ac: Heat co: Cheese ab: ?: The pictograph h is a picture of a wall meaning "to separate". The m is a picture of water. Combined these mean "separate water". Cheese was made by placing milk in a bag made out of an animal skin. The bag was hung out in the sun and pushed back and forth. The skin of the bag contained an enzyme that when heated and shaken caused the milk to sour and separate into its two parts, fat (curds or cheese) and water (whey). The whey could be drunk and the curds eaten or stored for future consumption.

A) Mh% (Mh% HhM) ac: Heat co: Sun ab: ?: The heat from the sun heats the contents of the bag.

Nm) Mh% (Mh% HhM) - I. Hot: II. Father-In-Law: One who is hot. [freq. 20] |kjv: hot, warm, heat, father-in-law, husbands father| {str: 2524, 2525, 2527}

Nf1) Emh% (Emh% Hh-MH) - I. Sun: The source of heat. II. Fury: An intense heat from anger. [freq. 132] |kjv: sun, heat, fury, wrath, poison, displeasure, rage, anger, bottle| {str: 2528, 2534, 2535}

Nf2) Tmh% (Tmh% Hh-MT) - Skin bag: Used for holding the cheese. Also used for water or any other liquid. [freq. 4] |kjv: bottle| {str: 2573}

Nf3) Tfmh% (Tfmh% Hh-MWT) - Mother-In-Law: [freq. 11] |kjv: mother-in-law| {str: 2545}

mm) Nmh% (Nmh% Hh-MN) - Sun idol: An object of worship representing the sun god. [freq. 8] |kjv: image, idol| {str: 2553}

B) Mmh% (Mmh% HhMM) ac: Warm co: ? ab: ?: The heat from the sun warms the contents of the bag.

V) Mmh% (Mmh% Hh-MM) - Warm: The warmth of the sun or from passion. [freq. 13] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Hitpael, Piel) |kjv: hot, heat, warm, enflame| {str: 2552}

E) Amh% (Amh% HhMA) ac: ? co: Cheese ab: ?: The curds produced from the skin bottle. This cheese has a buttery texture and flavor.

Nf1) Eamh% (Eamh% HhM-AH) - Cheese: [df: hmx] [freq. 10] |kjv: butter| {str: 2529}

af1) Eamhm% (Eamhm% MHh-M-AH) - Cheese: [freq. 1] |kjv: butter| {str: 4260}

J) Mfh% (Mfh% HhWM) ac: ? co: Black ab: ?: The color of wood when burned.

Nm) Mfh% (Mfh% HhWM) - Black: [freq. 4] |kjv: brown| {str: 2345}

Nf1) Emfh% (Emfh% HhW-MH) - Wall: [unknown connection to root;] [freq. 133] |kjv: wall, walled| {str: 2346}

L) Mhi% (Mhi% YHhM) ac: Heat co: ? ab: ?: The heat from the sun warms the contents of the bag.

V) Mhi% (Mhi% Y-HhM) - Heat: Natural body heat as well as the time of heat when animals mate. Conception from an animals heat or through the heat of passion. [freq. 10] (vf: Paal, Piel) |kjv: conceive, warm, hot, heat| {str: 3179}

Adopted Roots;

A2169 Dmh , Desire

A2172 Xmh Shake, Violence

A2173 Ymh Sour

A2491 Rmx Bristle, Hair

A2305 Mhl Fight, Bread

A2600 Mhp Burn, Charcoal

[zerinus]

It's curds, similar to cottage cheese.

So from the theological point of view it doesn't really make a lot of difference what you translate it as. In one case it translates, "He will eat butter and honey until ...," and in the other case it reads, "He will eat cheese and honey until ...". In either case, the essence of the message is that he will eat dairy food and honey until ... It doesn't make much difference to the essence of the message which way you translate it, wouldn't you agree?

[zerinus]

By modern Hebrew usage, I would agree that "חמאה" generally means butter. Shucks even by ancient usage, one of its definitions may have meant butter. That said, there is more than one definition for "חמאה" as several of your own sources noted. I found a book which may be of some interest. It is called the "Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible" by Jeff A. Benner. It is an excellent resource and fairly recent - 2005. Enjoy.

I tried to reproduce a relevant part below but without the correct font, it does not display as it should. Suffice it to say where more than one definition exists, more than one translation can be had and more than one interpretation made.

Thank you. That was a bit difficult to read; but from what I was able to get out of it, it actually describes the making of butter rather than cheese. The process of putting milk in animal skin and shaking (churning) it actually produces butter, not cheese; and it is a process that is still carried out in various pars of the Middle East as I described in a previous post.

Edited February 10, 2012 by zerinus