Why Don't Avowed Apostates Leave The Church Then Leave It Alone?

[krose]

If I expressed the opinion that not being able to leave something alone was "just the personality" of apostates I can't imagine the uproar and offensisentitivity I would get in return.

Speaking just for myself (one of those you call an "avowed apostate"), I would not be offended in the least. I know I like to discuss issues I care about and have studied extensively, whether it be religion, politics or sports, and I frequent discussion boards for all these topics.

Oh, maybe you mean describing me as the type who can't let things go and move on. That's different.

[KevinG]

This is a little surprising and I haven't seen this happening. Quite frankly, church members are so busy with the less actives and the actives that I would be surprised that they would waste their time with people who requested not to be contacted. The people in that ward must be sadists to go and bother people who don't want to be bothered.

Parsimony suggests they got a new Bishopric and Ward Clerk who forgot to pass the list on the the new Elders Quorum president. I've offended many a "do not contact" by not being handed that list by a previous quorum leader.

[KevinG]

Speaking just for myself (one of those you call an "avowed apostate"), I would not be offended in the least. I know I like to discuss issues I care about and have studied extensively, whether it be religion, politics or sports, and I frequent discussion boards for all these topics.

Oh, maybe you mean describing me as the type who can't let things go and move on. That's different.

The original comments and discussion stemmed from another thread where one poster claimed to have left the church but continued to post some rather scathing remarks about what we got wrong. I responded in sincerity - why don't you form another church that fits your notions of what a church should be. He thought the remark was flippant. It was not - so I have reasked the question here trying to get an idea of why someone who would spend lots of energy criticising one religion would not depart fully and reform, form or find another that fits their conception of what a church should be.

I'm not referring to mere critics or loyal opposition. I am referring to those who would spend their lives tearing down what they no longer consider theirs.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Speaking just for myself (one of those you call an "avowed apostate"), I would not be offended in the least. I know I like to discuss issues I care about and have studied extensively, whether it be religion, politics or sports, and I frequent discussion boards for all these topics.

Oh, maybe you mean describing me as the type who can't let things go and move on. That's different.

It would be boring to only speak with those that agree on all things.

[KevinG]

It would be boring to only speak with those that agree on all things.

I agree with all things you said.

[Jeff K.]

For those who have left, and those whom they left behind.... this is what happened in my case around eight years ago.

A strange and different thing happened to me over the holidays. Most of you know me well enough to appreciate (or not) the somewhat concrete and sometimes cynical side of me. It’s in response to the hand that life has dealt me (and what I have sometimes dealt life), many great blessings and some failures that to this day I cannot fully appreciate or understand but study carefully.

My younger brother came down from San Jose for a visit. Of course that is really not the issue. He is always welcome (though like me he tends to drone), however he brought someone with him that I had not expected. An old friend named Mike. To me phrases like “old friend” are fraught with the sensitive minefields of who we were juxtaposing itself in the battle of who we are and try to be. The phrase is a cliché and often used to reflect ephemeral relationships as well as those with bands of iron in them. Those bands can be good spiritual manifestations of love that one brother holds with another or they can be something less and sometimes they hide something darker.

Mike was my best friend in high school. I can honestly say I was closer to him than I was to my brothers. Mike also was the example that brought me to the church. My view of Mike was that he was a young man at ease with himself and those around him. Ever know one of those people that seem to be able to walk in almost any social group in high school and still not be seen as sycophantic? His spirit was such that even adults were impressed with his quiet confidence. I wanted to be like him, and to a certain extent coveted the respect that he had long ago earned. It took going out on my own and falling and rising again to come to a certain semblance of who I was. I may not ever achieve the level of spiritual strength that I perceive Mike held so effortlessly, but I learned more about who I was and more importantly how I made my way to be the way I am by being alone. When Mike and I turned 19 I went on a mission, Mike’s mother could not afford to part with him. He was her only child, her only son, and she poured all of her love into him. Her husband by the time he was nineteen was in his late seventies (do the math). She was in her forties and could not bear to be apart from the thing she loved most. She told him to stay. He stayed.

The forks in our lives grew further apart, I went west, Mike went to Atlanta and worked for an electronics firm. From time to time I would call, but after a decade or so that relationship just seemed to slowly evaporate away. I no longer called, he no longer returned the call. Part of it may have been guilt, that somehow I remained active and he didn’t. For me I say somehow because I did not always want to stay active, as a matter of fact there were times when I didn’t even really care about the church at all, I rationalized.

Luckily I had a good wife to calm the waters and gently caress the sails of my decisions into the direction the Lord sought. I owe my wife a great deal more than she really knows (she is so clueless of her importance to me). It’s a great deal like that often momentary feeling of looking at your spouse and feeling an overwhelming swelling of love for that instant. Meanwhile your spouse remains clueless to the emotion you just felt for her/him. It passes, life goes on.

Like any ward mission leader I invited Mike to go to church with me and my family. I found I still love him, and even now realize that my joining the church was one of those life changing events to which I owe much more than those around me could generally comprehend. More than anything else I wanted people to meet the person who brought me to the church and if possible praise him to those I knew now (I sometimes wonder if that is how spirits we do work for in the temple feel). Mike said no, it wasn’t for him. Not anymore.

I asked him again, and with a sigh, he said he would, but only for sacrament, then he had to leave, catch a flight back to Georgia.

We arrived and Mike was there smiling and generally getting along with those we met in the ward, almost like I remembered.

Mike came in with my family and me, the fast and testimony meeting began. He seemed a bit nervous with the testimonies and seemed to grow more impatient as we sat. Finally he got up and went into the lobby. You have to love church lobbies, they are the same everywhere in the US and they usually involve the same coterie of faces. I like to call them the conspiracy of the bored. The semi asleep priest who has to sit outside with his little sister who is fussy. The father who is using the toddler as an excuse to sit on something more comfortable than a bench. Those wandering Israelites that step out for a few during sacrament.

Mike walked passed there and went outside and I followed. There is a park right next to our ward building with benches and he went out there to sit.

“Whats up Mike?”

“Why did you invite me?

“I suppose because you’re my friend, the church is important and so are you”. As an aside you ever wonder how even the most sincere things sound tinny and trite sometimes? I wanted to burn the author on a pyre of the ensign story that had made that phrase so cliché and so unimportant, even when it was true. So I added “also because I wanted people to know who brought me to the church”.

“Jeff, I am not the person who brought you to the church, that person was almost 20 years ago. I am me, today, Mike. And for all intents and purposes, not a member of the church.” He kind of took a deep breath and added “ Didn’t you just want me to see that you are successful in church and I am not?”

I honestly hadn’t thought of that. It might even have been a possibility once, but as I thought about it I discounted it. “No Mike, that’s not true. Maybe once, a long time ago, that might have been true. Maybe once a long time ago I really wanted you to see me stretch beyond you. But just like you aren’t the guy who brought me to the church anymore, I am not the guy who wanted to be better than you.”

“So what is it about Jeff? I am not going to be here for priesthood so that you can ‘praise’ me.”

Usually I am a fairly thoughtful person when it comes to gauging other people’s emotions and analyzing their motivations and generally I have been right (it has helped me a great deal in business). But what I saw with Mike seemed to be some swirling contradictions. Things that were there and weren’t. Like walking into an old abandoned house with the memories of when it was young. He still loved me as I loved him, but there was too large a gulf between us. It was the as if we were too alien species that desperately looked for a commonality that no longer existed. We wanted to connect but there was nothing to connect.

“Maybe I am just looking Mike. Maybe I wanted something that I had so long ago that’s lost, and you’re all that’s left of it. Maybe along with the changes I lost some things that I think you still have.”

“Well Jeff, it’s gone. I don’t know you.”

That was one of the most flat straightforward declaratives I have ever heard in my life. It was final. In that instance I recalled a scripture (I looked it up) in 3rd Nephi 28 “And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.” To Mike’s life I was a gentile now, an outsider.

“No Mike, I guess you don’t.” I gave him one of those half crooked smiles I have a habit of doing when I learn something I don’t necessarily want to learn. “I guess it’s just too much time.”

“Yep” he replied, and then he probably gave the first open and clear smile I had seen on him since he and I met.

“Well Mike, you want a ride to the airport?”

“No, that’s ok” he pulled out his cell phone and called a cab, his clothes were in his duffel in the trunk of my car.

“Take care man” I said. We shook hands and then I went back to church. I won’t be calling him, he won’t be calling me. I think we both buried some ghosts in that park; unfortunately some of those ghosts were our best friends.

[Jeff K.]

If that were true and they thought they were helping, their hate sure seems to go the other direction. I see those things as an excuse to hate, not an excuse to help.

[Thinking]

Why do avowed apostates seek to have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints change pracices and doctrines when if as they claim the church has lost its authority (or never had it)?

1. I am not asking for the Church to change anything. However, each time it makes a change which appears to be the result of pressure from the outside, its claim of divine guidance is called into question.

2. Frequently, faithful LDS accuse apostates of having other reasons for leaving than doctrine. While that may be true for some, I personally feel the need to defend myself, even if it's on a message board.

3. The Church doesn't leave anybody alone.

[Libs]

Why don't apostate Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, "Moonies," Nichiren, etc. leave their former religions alone? I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people who continue to criticize these organizations is at least as high as for the Mormons.

Any group that requires a significant personal commitment to the cause will receive a significant backlash from some disaffected members. That said, those who turn away and don't look back make up a huge percentage.

There are support groups out there for people who have left the JW's and any number of other churches. I have seen several for ex-JW's and I have a friend who belonged to a group for ex-Church of Christ members (I guess they have a lot of beliefs that are not mainstream). This friend of mine had a fairly difficult time with it and we even commiserated a bit, as we were going through similar struggles.

[why me]

There are support groups out there for people who have left the JW's and any number of other churches. I have seen several for ex-JW's and I have a friend who belonged to a group for ex-Church of Christ members (I guess they have a lot of beliefs that are not mainstream). This friend of mine had a fairly difficult time with it and we even commiserated a bit, as we were going through similar struggles.

There are also support groups for excatholics. They are also bashing their own former faith. I just think that people like to surround themselves with likeminded people for various of reasons. Perhaps we can only experience a connection through the internet these days with the social media replacing traditional friendships. It seems that we are gathering around people who agree wtih us more and more.

Edited February 10, 2012 by why me

[Libs]

Yes, like I said, these internet groups have both good and bad aspects. I think it's good that people can find support in areas where they need it. On the other hand, it can be very divisive and encourage people to stay in a rut, rather than moving on with their life.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes, like I said, these internet groups have both good and bad aspects. I think it's good that people can find support in areas where they need it. On the other hand, it can be very divisive and encourage people to stay in a rut, rather than moving on with their life.

Ruts are the only thing that offer less resistance and more at the same time.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[bjpascoal]

As a Mormon I influenced many people to join the church over the years. Both as a full-time missionary and as a member. All in we're probably talking about 40 people in my lifetime that joined the church due in some part by my influence or effort.

Now that I'm out and I would qualify as what you would describe as an apostate, I feel it is my duty to undo my past mistakes. This is why I now proseletyze to LDS. I would not classify my actions as "railing" but I'm sure many Mormons would make that statement.

It really all comes down to a matter of perspective. And from my point of view I'm just doing what I have always done throughout my life both as a Mormon and now as an ex-Mormon and that is to share my beliefs with others.

Thank you.

[cdowis]

Now that I'm out and I would qualify as what you would describe as an apostate, I feel it is my duty to undo my past mistakes. This is why I now proseletyze to LDS.

Thank you.

OK, perhaps you can find some converts right here. What do you have to offer us? You want to get us out of Smithism, so where should we go?

Now, be prepared for some questions, because you have convinced us that we have been fooled by that Smith guy, so we will look closely at YOUR claims for something better. Let's see what you got.

Edited February 11, 2012 by cdowis

[Libs]

Ruts are the only thing that offer less resistance and more at the same time.

Yes, you could say that, I guess.

Like anything else that has both good and bad qualities, a rut is not a bad thing, if it's leading you down a good path. If it's leading you to unhappiness, however, it can be a bumpy ride trying to get out.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Libs

[Libs]

As a Mormon I influenced many people to join the church over the years. Both as a full-time missionary and as a member. All in we're probably talking about 40 people in my lifetime that joined the church due in some part by my influence or effort.

Now that I'm out and I would qualify as what you would describe as an apostate, I feel it is my duty to undo my past mistakes. This is why I now proseletyze to LDS. I would not classify my actions as "railing" but I'm sure many Mormons would make that statement.

It really all comes down to a matter of perspective. And from my point of view I'm just doing what I have always done throughout my life both as a Mormon and now as an ex-Mormon and that is to share my beliefs with others.

Thank you.

Hi bjpascoal. Welcome to the board.

What are your new beliefs? Are they religious in nature? So many who leave, become unsure about their faith in God..

Edited February 11, 2012 by Libs

[Hayds]

I think many people in this thread view the word "apostate" synonomous with the word "enemy". The dictionary's definition of apostate is hardly as nefarious as some people in this thread make it. Apostate: A person who abandons his religion, party, cause, etc. I guess from this definition I am apostate. I abandonded the tenets of Mormonism and no longer believe it. However, I don't complain about the church or have an underlying agenda to destroy it. I don't hate the church; I just don't believe in it anymore. Not everyone who leaves the church hates and criticisizes it. I daresay there are more apostates who abandon the church and move on, then there are apostates who abandon the church and seethe about it in forums. I don't know why some people can't leave the church alone.

My grandmother was a convert to the LDS church from Catholicism. In otherwords she became a Catholic "apostate" and joined Mormonism. She was not miserable, was happy all the time, and had a strong testimony of Mormonism. But, she loved to complain and trash talk the Catholic church. Why? I have no idea. Using that example, I have to believe that not every person who apostasizes and then criticizes or complains about the church is secretly living a miserable hellish life.

[Xander]

Assume the question "why don't you form your own church?" is genuine and not just a flippant response.

"Starting your own church" didn't stop Joseph Smith from attacking other faiths. So I don't understand how this is supposed to be a problem solver.

[Jeff K.]

It's a good thing other innocent churches and governments never attacked our faith. That the church and it's leaders including Joseph Smith, really did live to a ripe old age. There was never a need of Winter Quarters, there was never an extermination order. And of course if we were to really believe our contextually clueless friend, there was no need to escape to Utah.

Is an angry retort to people trying to kill you and your beliefs the same as hate speech. Our resident anti Mormon will tell you it is the same. If I shoot at you, and you curse me in anger, then of course I should take umbrage at your unprovoked attack.

We are expected to die quietly and thank the anti Mormons for their sincere efforts.

[Storm Rider]

It's a good thing other innocent churches and governments never attacked our faith. That the church and it's leaders including Joseph Smith, really did live to a ripe old age. There was never a need of Winter Quarters, there was never an extermination order. And of course if we were to really believe our contextually clueless friend, there was no need to escape to Utah.

Is an angry retort to people trying to kill you and your beliefs the same as hate speech. Our resident anti Mormon will tell you it is the same. If I shoot at you, and you curse me in anger, then of course I should take umbrage at your unprovoked attack.

We are expected to die quietly and thank the anti Mormons for their sincere efforts.

That is a hateful thing to say. Shame on your for being so callous and assuming the worst of our sincere, honest, forthright good man. I will not talk to you again until you apologize for such an offensive edit! I am outraged I tell you, outraged. This poor man is set upon at every trun in his charitable actions to guide those miserable, ignorant, stupid, blind Mormons to a more enlightened, loving, respectful and inspired life. Outraged is all I can say.

[bjpascoal]

Hi bjpascoal. Welcome to the board.

What are your new beliefs? Are they religious in nature? So many who leave, become unsure about their faith in God..

Thanks for the warm welcome. You are absolutely correct about how many who leave become unsure of God. That's a little soft I would argue that most become atheist or agnostic, I really wish there was a scientific study to back that up but in my experience that has been the case.

But to answer your question about my beliefs. Yes I am very spiritual and I consider myself a Christian. Although I'd rather not derail this thread by sharing my own beliefs yet but I'll find a thread to do that when it works or I will start one. I want to have a loving spiritual discussion on these topics too so I thank you. Mainly I just wanted to chime in on this thread to express my sincere motivation for not leaving the church alone as many people phrase it.

God Bless!

[Libs]

Thanks for the warm welcome. You are absolutely correct about how many who leave become unsure of God. That's a little soft I would argue that most become atheist or agnostic, I really wish there was a scientific study to back that up but in my experience that has been the case.

Yeah, I think some people are actually working on that. I have heard from RS leaders, etc., that most people who leave, are actually still believers but just go inactive for various reasons. That may be true in the bigger picture. It's really hard to know.

But to answer your question about my beliefs. Yes I am very spiritual and I consider myself a Christian. Although I'd rather not derail this thread by sharing my own beliefs yet but I'll find a thread to do that when it works or I will start one. I want to have a loving spiritual discussion on these topics too so I thank you. Mainly I just wanted to chime in on this thread to express my sincere motivation for not leaving the church alone as many people phrase it.

God Bless!

Very good. I look forward to hearing more about your beliefs.

Thank you for the reply and blessings to you, as well.