Why Don't Avowed Apostates Leave The Church Then Leave It Alone?

[Benjamin McGuire]

Following up DH's comments, I think that this has to do with the implications of cognitive dissonance for those who leave the church. Festinger discusses this in his book (A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance, Stanford University Press, 1957 - although I am quoting from the 1985 reprint):

(p. 246-247) Mass Proselyting

Let us turn, now, to examining data where there is evidence concerning the social process which arises when social support is easily obtainable. Again, we will look for situations where a belief that is very difficult to discard is held, and where cognition dissonant with this belief is introduced by the unequivocal evidence of one's own senses. Specifically, if the belief is very difficult to discard, and if the cognition dissonant with the belief is also very difficult to discard, obtaining social support will be one of the major means of reducing the magnitude of the dissonance. Under such circumstances, the introduction of an identical dissonance into the cognitions of many people will lead to two observable manifestations of the pressure to reduce the dissonance by obtaining social support. First, there will be an increase in giving and obtaining support among those suffering the identical dissonance. Second, there will be an increase in the attempts to persuade new people that the belief is, after all, valid.

In the section that follows, Festinger goes into greater detail, of course. But the bottom line is this, part of easing the cognitive dissonance associated with abandoning faith is eased by adding to the group that you see has done the same. There is, according to Festinger, for some a psychological need to help others out of the church, once they have left it themselves. Since they can only get this by encouraging the same cognitive dissonance in current and active members, this is perceived as not leaving the church alone.

There is a corollary of course. Once having committed themselves to a new paradigm even more tightly than to their former beliefs, those who have left the church will tend (according to Festinger) to ignore evidence that contradicts their beliefs. So, from page 247:

In principle, the phenomenon discussed here is no different from what one observes in a person who buys a new car, has some experiences with it which are not altogether to his liking, and proceeds to try to convince his friends that the make of car he just purchased is the most wonderful thing on the market. The only difference is that where there are a number of people having the same cognitive dissonance, the phenomenon may be much more spectacular, even to the point where it is possible to withstand evidence which would otherwise be overwhelming. This results in an apparent paradox, namely, that after being exposed to evidence of one's own senses which unequivocally demonstrates a belief system to be wrong, people proceed to proselyte more vigorously for the belief system.

I see this quite visibly, for example, in certain critics responses to various presentations on the Joseph Smith Papyri. At some point, the evidence really simply stops mattering.

Ben M.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Benjamin McGuire

[Jaybear]

No big mystery.

Human are social creatures, who form bond over common interests, history or traits, whether it be religion, politics, sports, hobbies, family.

The internet provides a means for apostates to network. For those apostates whose religion was a big part of their life, its not surprising that they use the internet to meet other who have a similar history and void to fill.

Apostates gathering to discuss the LDS religion is no more unusual Harry Potter fans gathering to discuss the latest harry potter movie. Except that there are more Harry Potter fans.

Of course, I could be wrong. It could mean that the LDS Church is the one true church, and Harry Potter is the one true magician.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Maybe. But I don't know as there are many that do troll the internet looking for ways to bash some other occupation they left. IE; Most people spend far more time at their job than at any religion. But you don't see many former electrial engineers bad mouthing The IAENG Society of Electrical Engineering (ISEE).

[Senator]

What if we posed the OP's question to other apostates?

Take Carolyn Jessop for example. She apostatized from a polygamous FLDS sect. She then turned against the community, writing and being an advocate for others who do likewise.

Are we not tempted to applaud her "bravery"?

Yet when some tell the story of escaping the LDS "our" church, we of course react differently.

I'm certian the still faithful FLDS have choice words for Carolyn, Just as many LDS have similar words for their apostates.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Maybe. But I don't know as there are many that do troll the internet looking for ways to bash some other occupation they left. IE; Most people spend far more time at their job than at any religion. But you don't see many former electrial engineers bad mouthing The IAENG Society of Electrical Engineering (ISEE).

Maybe what?

Humans aren't social creatures.

Apostates don't have a common bond.

The internet is not a place where those who share a common bond can congregate to discuss matters of common interest.

What specifically do you have trouble accepting?

More over, how many ex members of the ISEE are there, and how difficult was it for them to leave the organization?

If you want to draw any conclusion from an analogy, you need to find a better analogy.

If however, you goal is not to understand apostates, but to find any excuse to criticize them, then by all means proceed with your analogy.

[Spammer]

Libs, I don't think this topic or label applies to you. I think it addresses those individuals who leave the church but are unable to stop talking about it. They appear unable to leave, find a new spiritual home, and be at peace. Instead their hearts are full of rancor and bitterness, they attack the Church and its members; it is as they are compelled to attack it. They do not exhibit any degree of happiness with their life or their new choice; they seem motivated to make everyone else feel as they do. We have a few of them on this board. Compulsion is a terrible thing and these are they that are fully in the grasp of the evil one.

I do think that some are led to other churches and they find peace and joy. We don't really grasp our Father's plan for each of us and we have to have faith that in the end his Will or plan will be fulfilled if we are each willing to follow him.

This topic applies to me if only because i have left the church and am unable to stop thinking and talking about it, but only on online forums. I once did this with family and friends, but stopped after realizing that I had become a gadfly. That didn't stop me from continuing my "attacks" on Mormons and Mormonism online in such places as CAF and Postmo (if they are attacks). What Stormrider applies to me. I "do not exhibit any degree of happiness with [my] life or [my] new choice; I make everyone else [who is Mormon that I encounter online on the websites I mentioned] feel as I do. As a Christian, this is bad. I realize this. But I am weak. Let me explain. I was born in the church, of pioneer and polygamous ancestry, going back five generations. I never got a spiritual witness, despite faithful church service, tithe-paying, mission, temple marriage, and a sincere desire for that witness. Then I learned about the complex history of the BoA, the priesthood ban, polygamy, the various First Vision accounts, differences between the Book of Commandments and D&C, Joseph Smith's magic rocks and the real BoM translation process, etc. That threw me for a major loop and I became an atheist. Many years later, I engaged in a study of world religions, was a zen buddhist for a short time, found that lacking both intellecually and spiritually, went back to atheism, then decided one day to go back to my Christian roots and investigate Christian origins. I read all the existing ancient Christian documents and Church Fathers, both canonical and non-canonical (including gnostic texts) and concluded that if there was something to this Jesus thing, it's obvious there never was an Apostasy and if Jesus really did rise from the dead, it's ancient, liturgical Christianity or nothing. So, I decided to give Jesus one more try and became a Catholic. Then I discovered Eastern Christianity and it's conciliar approach, which I found much closer to what is described in Acts and the writings of the first couple of centuries (I never was comfortable with claims about the papacy). So, then I became and Eastern Orthodox catechumen. That's where I am today. So - why do I "fit the bill" as intended by the OP? I am, indeed, angry at Mormons and Mormonism. The reason is that I am trapped. I woke up one morning back on '92 and spoke out loud saying "It's Not True!" I remember it like it was yesterday. I married my sweetheart in the temple two years earlier. We have kids. She's a believer and she gets really, really, really, really upset if I don't pretend to be a good Mormon father at home. It goes without saying that my boys don't know I left the church, don't know I am a baptized Catholic and officially am now an Eastern Orthodox catechumen. My wife knows, but my boys don't. I go to church with my boys, never baptizing or ordaining, but am at least there with them silently, seeming to be a believer at my wife's request. My older boy is now a deacon and my wife recently asked me to leave sacrament meeting when it became evident that our son would pass to our bench. I refuse to take the sacrament, you see. So I left. That is my reality. That is how I keep my family intact and the strained relationship with my wife from deteriorating further than it has due to religious differences. My family, my wife, and my sons are my life. But I refuse to believe in the LDS Church. I long, desperately, to practice my Christian faith, to go to church, to pray, to fast, to just live a simple, Christian life, but I cannot. I have to pretend to be Mormon and hide my Eastern Orthodox beliefs. This is infuriating, depressing, produces hopelessness and anger and frustration. So I go online and vent vent vent. I can't stop thinking about religion and Mormonism and Jesus and frequently lash out at Mormons and Mormonism, fighting what the LDS church teaches at every opportunity while online. My wife knows nothing about this, nor does the bishop. It's all a big secret. At church, it's all smiles and "how are you"s. Inside, I'm seething. I'm not free, you see. I'm a prisoner of expectations and my own fears that if I just come out of the closet to my boys that my wife will like me even less and eventually leave me. So, for this reason, I just cannot leave the church alone.

[Jeff K.]

Humans are social creatures, but apostates do not socialize exclusively on anti Mormon websites, they go to LDS websites and constantly bark and whine. Why is this? Because they are social creatures, just like lynch mobs are made of social creatures, just like those who murdered Joseph Smith were social creatures. Social creatures can hate, they can also have the desire to denigrate, and trample.

Indeed Social creatures are wonderful for hating, they feed on each other and project, look at what social creatures have done when they organize in one social group to wipe out another. What I find interesting is exclusive to the fact they are social creatures. When someone stops going to a baptist church, they tend to leave it alone, they don't lurk in baptist websites and say how wrong the baptists are, or leave and lurk in Catholic websites and attack the Catholic church. Those who leave the Mormons church (including some who decide to stay under false pretense) have a special hatred for all things Mormon. I doubt the anti Mormons who post here spend nearly as much time on any other single place as they do here.

To them they just can't leave well enough alone. At one time they may have professed a love for the church, a love for their colleagues and friends, even sworn and testified to the veracity. Imagine how all of that sits at the back of their mind, while their friends and collegues and family still profess that same love. Imagine how they seethe everytime someone claims to have a spiritual moment or has received revelation or testimony. Like carrion they sit here and wait for chinks in the armor so they can celebrate the imagined weakness.

What is especially stunning is the church hasn't changed. The church they once expressed a love and testimony for is still there. The church that allowed them to understand those moments of inspiration is still before them, unchanged. They, however, have changed. They have put themselves on the outside, and they no longer have that feeling of being part of something special, they have lost a connection they once held, they have alienated themselves from the spirit.

Misery loves company. Lynch mobs don't form because they think its the right and proper thing to do, Joseph Smith wasn't killed because people calmly deliberated (at least not from descriptions) that his death was best for all. It is a reaction, a rage of selfishness, an anguish of no longer belonging. They keep coming back because they miss the connection, and become angry when its not there for them.

This Sunday, in sacrament, when I sit in church, and the family sitting next to me with small children have to deal with them to a point of distraction, and when I hand my Ipad2 over to the kids so they can quietly move the tiles of the mosaic together depicting scenes from the Bible or Book of Mormon, and the young family smiles at us and we smile back, and we sit and listen to a young beehive and priest articulate Christ's love in the best way they can. These people, and lynch mobs will be far from our minds, they will be forgotten, what we have is special. But those anti Mormons, they will never forget us.

That is probably the saddest part.

[Jeff K.]

This topic applies to me if only because i have left the church and am unable to stop thinking and talking about it, but only on online forums. I once did this with family and friends, but stopped after realizing that I had become a gadfly. That didn't stop me from continuing my "attacks" on Mormons and Mormonism online in such places as CAF and Postmo (if they are attacks). What Stormrider applies to me. I "do not exhibit any degree of happiness with [my] life or [my] new choice; I make everyone else [who is Mormon that I encounter online on the websites I mentioned] feel as I do. As a Christian, this is bad. I realize this. But I am weak. Let me explain. I was born in the church, of pioneer and polygamous ancestry, going back five generations. I never got a spiritual witness, despite faithful church service, tithe-paying, mission, temple marriage, and a sincere desire for that witness. Then I learned about the complex history of the BoA, the priesthood ban, polygamy, the various First Vision accounts, differences between the Book of Commandments and D&C, Joseph Smith's magic rocks and the real BoM translation process, etc. That threw me for a major loop and I became an atheist. Many years later, I engaged in a study of world religions, was a zen buddhist for a short time, found that lacking both intellecually and spiritually, went back to atheism, then decided one day to go back to my Christian roots and investigate Christian origins. I read all the existing ancient Christian documents and Church Fathers, both canonical and non-canonical (including gnostic texts) and concluded that if there was something to this Jesus thing, it's obvious there never was an Apostasy and if Jesus really did rise from the dead, it's ancient, liturgical Christianity or nothing. So, I decided to give Jesus one more try and became a Catholic. Then I discovered Eastern Christianity and it's conciliar approach, which I found much closer to what is described in Acts and the writings of the first couple of centuries (I never was comfortable with claims about the papacy). So, then I became and Eastern Orthodox catechumen. That's where I am today. So - why do I "fit the bill" as intended by the OP? I am, indeed, angry at Mormons and Mormonism. The reason is that I am trapped. I woke up one morning back on '92 and spoke out loud saying "It's Not True!" I remember it like it was yesterday. I married my sweetheart in the temple two years earlier. We have kids. She's a believer and she gets really, really, really, really upset if I don't pretend to be a good Mormon father at home. It goes without saying that my boys don't know I left the church, don't know I am a baptized Catholic and officially am now an Eastern Orthodox catechumen. My wife knows, but my boys don't. I go to church with my boys, never baptizing or ordaining, but am at least there with them silently, seeming to be a believer at my wife's request. My older boy is now a deacon and my wife recently asked me to leave sacrament meeting when it became evident that our son would pass to our bench. I refuse to take the sacrament, you see. So I left. That is my reality. That is how I keep my family intact and the strained relationship with my wife from deteriorating further than it has due to religious differences. My family, my wife, and my sons are my life. But I refuse to believe in the LDS Church. I long, desperately, to practice my Christian faith, to go to church, to pray, to fast, to just live a simple, Christian life, but I cannot. I have to pretend to be Mormon and hide my Eastern Orthodox beliefs. This is infuriating, depressing, produces hopelessness and anger and frustration. So I go online and vent vent vent. I can't stop thinking about religion and Mormonism and Jesus and frequently lash out at Mormons and Mormonism, fighting what the LDS church teaches at every opportunity while online. My wife knows nothing about this, nor does the bishop. It's all a big secret. At church, it's all smiles and "how are you"s. Inside, I'm seething. I'm not free, you see. I'm a prisoner of expectations and my own fears that if I just come out of the closet to my boys that my wife will like me even less and eventually leave me. So, for this reason, I just cannot leave the church alone.

Your reality is a tough one, you allow your love for your wife to undermine your quest for truth. So what do you do? The deception is good for the family and your wife I think needs to confront the truth of the matter, rather than adhere to social mores... It isn't easy being a member of the church sometimes, and it can be hard to leave it when a family is settled. Without knowing why you left or the circumstances surrounding the exit, I would say that your difficulty will only get worse as your son tries to please you (and all sons secretly want their fathers proud of them) and doing what Latter-Day Saints see as the right thing to do, ceases to please you. He will know you won't want him going on a mission, and he will become miserable trying to figure out who to please, mom or dad.

There needs to be an accomodation for truth in your relationship with your family.

[Spammer]

Humans are social creatures, but apostates do not socialize exclusively on anti Mormon websites, they go to LDS websites and constantly bark and whine. Why is this? Because they are social creatures, just like lynch mobs are made of social creatures, just like those who murdered Joseph Smith were social creatures. Social creatures can hate, they can also have the desire to denigrate, and trample.

Indeed Social creatures are wonderful for hating, they feed on each other and project, look at what social creatures have done when they organize in one social group to wipe out another. What I find interesting is exclusive to the fact they are social creatures. When someone stops going to a baptist church, they tend to leave it alone, they don't lurk in baptist websites and say how wrong the baptists are, or leave and lurk in Catholic websites and attack the Catholic church. Those who leave the Mormons church (including some who decide to stay under false pretense) have a special hatred for all things Mormon. I doubt the anti Mormons who post here spend nearly as much time on any other single place as they do here.

To them they just can't leave well enough alone. At one time they may have professed a love for the church, a love for their colleagues and friends, even sworn and testified to the veracity. Imagine how all of that sits at the back of their mind, while their friends and collegues and family still profess that same love. Imagine how they seethe everytime someone claims to have a spiritual moment or has received revelation or testimony. Like carrion they sit here and wait for chinks in the armor so they can celebrate the imagined weakness.

What is especially stunning is the church hasn't changed. The church they once expressed a love and testimony for is still there. The church that allowed them to understand those moments of inspiration is still before them, unchanged. They, however, have changed. They have put themselves on the outside, and they no longer have that feeling of being part of something special, they have lost a connection they once held, they have alienated themselves from the spirit.

Misery loves company. Lynch mobs don't form because they think its the right and proper thing to do, Joseph Smith wasn't killed because people calmly deliberated (at least not from descriptions) that his death was best for all. It is a reaction, a rage of selfishness, an anguish of no longer belonging. They keep coming back because they miss the connection, and become angry when its not there for them.

This Sunday, in sacrament, when I sit in church, and the family sitting next to me with small children have to deal with them to a point of distraction, and when I hand my Ipad2 over to the kids so they can quietly move the tiles of the mosaic together depicting scenes from the Bible or Book of Mormon, and the young family smiles at us and we smile back, and we sit and listen to a young beehive and priest articulate Christ's love in the best way they can. These people, and lynch mobs will be far from our minds, they will be forgotten, what we have is special. But those anti Mormons, they will never forget us.

That is probably the saddest part.

It's talk like this, that I hear every Sunday in church with my wife, that worsens the seething inside. I would love to be free, to just leave the church behind, move on, be a Christian, live and let live. Let the Mormons be. But, no. I must still attend on Sundays to keep my family together and subject myself to the standard Mormon explanations for why apostates apostatize. I seethe whenever I hear a Mormon in church say something like "those who don't gain a testimony fail because they were insincere or were harboring a desire to sin". Yet, I stay silent. The horrible limbo I'm in, neither Mormon nor able to leave, has created acute anxiety. The way Mormons usually talk about apostates in church just make things worse for people like me.

[Jaybear]

When someone stops going to a baptist church, they tend to leave it alone, they don't lurk in baptist websites and say how wrong the baptists are, or leave and lurk in Catholic websites and attack the Catholic church. Those who leave the Mormons church (including some who decide to stay under false pretense) have a special hatred for all things Mormon. I doubt the anti Mormons who post here spend nearly as much time on any other single place as they do here.

If true, then it would lead me to conclude that ex Mormons harbor a greater degree of hatred towards the LDS Church than ex baptists or ex Catholics have for their former Church.

As people are people, the variable that would seem explain this greater degree of hatred would have the be the LDS Church.

[Nevo]

FWIW, I have known people who left the Church and also leave it alone.

I know lots of people who have left the church—I can think of over a dozen off the top of my head: four of them are former roommates, another four are extended family members. And they've all "left the Church alone." I suspect they're the rule, rather than the exception.

[Benjamin McGuire]

If true, then it would lead me to conclude that ex Mormons harbor a greater degree of hatred towards the LDS Church than ex baptists or ex Catholics have for their former Church.

I wouldn't conclude this. I would suggest that this case agrees with my observations above. From Festinger:

But in the above illustration it seems clear that the person may encounter difficulties in trying to change either his behavior or his knowledge. And this, of course, is precisely the reason that dissonance, once created, may persist. There is no guarantee that the person will be able to reduce or remove the dissonance. The hypothetical smoker may find that the process of giving up smoking is too painful for him to endure. He might try to find facts and opinions of others to support the view that smoking is not harmful, but these attempts might fail. He might then remain in the situation where he continues to smoke and continues to know that smoking is harmful. If this turns out to be the case, however, his efforts to reduce the dissonance will not cease.

Spammer is put in a position where he cannot simply change in the way that he needs to, to ease the tension in his life, where his actions are not consonant with his beliefs. And so he is driven to try and reduce his dissonance in other ways (probably with varying degrees of success at different times). The alternative may simply be too painful.

Ben M.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Benjamin McGuire

[Spammer]

Your reality is a tough one, you allow your love for your wife to undermine your quest for truth. So what do you do? The deception is good for the family and your wife I think needs to confront the truth of the matter, rather than adhere to social mores... It isn't easy being a member of the church sometimes, and it can be hard to leave it when a family is settled. Without knowing why you left or the circumstances surrounding the exit, I would say that your difficulty will only get worse as your son tries to please you (and all sons secretly want their fathers proud of them) and doing what Latter-Day Saints see as the right thing to do, ceases to please you. He will know you won't want him going on a mission, and he will become miserable trying to figure out who to please, mom or dad.

There needs to be an accomodation for truth in your relationship with your family.

Truly, I won't mind if my boy wants to go on a mission. I'll pay for it, too. I will be paying to support him, not to support the church. But you're right, there must be an accomodation. One day soon, there will be. My boys are smart. Smarter than me. The older one already suspects and will soon see through the ruse. The piper will need to be paid. I have no idea what will happen. It's a fact though, that the undeniably awesome resources for family support in the LDS church does not apply if the dad is not on board. Things would be much easier if I could just sit there as a bench warmer, without the insistent, persistent pressure to be a card-carrying priesthood holder and exerciser. Dads at church who don't do these things are second class. I live with the fear that my boys will be disappointed in me daily. It really stinks. Badly. The funny thing is, I have a great job. My wife doesn't need to work. She gets to be there for the kids when they're home from school every day. I'm honest, work hard, do my best to be a good dad, husband, etc. We have a good life. But I'm still unhappy. The fact that I'm in this limbo is the cause. It's unfortunate that I allow the anxiety within to turn into anger at Mormons so frequently, but there it is. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there like me. If nothing else, I hope my experience can show the faithful Mormons here that the reasons for angry apostates are varied and nuanced. It's not a one size fits all reality, as some like to believe.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

My guess would be that most of those that leave simply drift away never to be heard from again much like here on MDB. It is the rabid ones we hear from.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 09 February 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Humans are social creatures, but apostates do not socialize exclusively on anti Mormon websites, they go to LDS websites and constantly bark and whine. Why is this? Because they are social creatures, just like lynch mobs are made of social creatures, just like those who murdered Joseph Smith were social creatures. Social creatures can hate, they can also have the desire to denigrate, and trample.

Indeed Social creatures are wonderful for hating, they feed on each other and project, look at what social creatures have done when they organize in one social group to wipe out another. What I find interesting is exclusive to the fact they are social creatures. When someone stops going to a baptist church, they tend to leave it alone, they don't lurk in baptist websites and say how wrong the baptists are, or leave and lurk in Catholic websites and attack the Catholic church. Those who leave the Mormons church (including some who decide to stay under false pretense) have a special hatred for all things Mormon. I doubt the anti Mormons who post here spend nearly as much time on any other single place as they do here.

To them they just can't leave well enough alone. At one time they may have professed a love for the church, a love for their colleagues and friends, even sworn and testified to the veracity. Imagine how all of that sits at the back of their mind, while their friends and collegues and family still profess that same love. Imagine how they seethe everytime someone claims to have a spiritual moment or has received revelation or testimony. Like carrion they sit here and wait for chinks in the armor so they can celebrate the imagined weakness.

What is especially stunning is the church hasn't changed. The church they once expressed a love and testimony for is still there. The church that allowed them to understand those moments of inspiration is still before them, unchanged. They, however, have changed. They have put themselves on the outside, and they no longer have that feeling of being part of something special, they have lost a connection they once held, they have alienated themselves from the spirit.

Misery loves company. Lynch mobs don't form because they think its the right and proper thing to do, Joseph Smith wasn't killed because people calmly deliberated (at least not from descriptions) that his death was best for all. It is a reaction, a rage of selfishness, an anguish of no longer belonging. They keep coming back because they miss the connection, and become angry when its not there for them.

This Sunday, in sacrament, when I sit in church, and the family sitting next to me with small children have to deal with them to a point of distraction, and when I hand my Ipad2 over to the kids so they can quietly move the tiles of the mosaic together depicting scenes from the Bible or Book of Mormon, and the young family smiles at us and we smile back, and we sit and listen to a young beehive and priest articulate Christ's love in the best way they can. These people, and lynch mobs will be far from our minds, they will be forgotten, what we have is special. But those anti Mormons, they will never forget us.

That is probably the saddest part.

It's talk like this, that I hear every Sunday in church with my wife, that worsens the seething inside. I would love to be free, to just leave the church behind, move on, be a Christian, live and let live. Let the Mormons be. But, no. I must still attend on Sundays to keep my family together and subject myself to the standard Mormon explanations for why apostates apostatize. I seethe whenever I hear a Mormon in church say something like "those who don't gain a testimony fail because they were insincere or were harboring a desire to sin". Yet, I stay silent. The horrible limbo I'm in, neither Mormon nor able to leave, has created acute anxiety. The way Mormons usually talk about apostates in church just make things worse for people like me.

It goes to motivation. Are you here because you like us? Are you here because you want to hurt us? It is the latter that defines the post.

[KevinG]

It's pretty much inevitable that missionaries will blindly tract people out again, but maybe wards could have a 'Do not contact' list for those who are technically still on the records, but don't want to be visited. And for those who are no longer Church members, make sure to remove their info from all email and home teaching lists. I know, easier said than done, when you have multiple lists floating around, people new to the calling, etc.

Every Ward I've been in does have a do not contact list. However it is inevitable that after years of time and someone has not written a letter asking for their name to be removed from the records, someone is going to make a call and check on the member of record to see if they have moved, have died or would reconsider visits. It is also the very nature of the beast that rotating Missionaries, rotating volunteer leaders and rotating ward populations lose track of the verbal instruction not to visit.

In every single case where I was visiting someone of record and they told me they were no longer a member of the church, I asked if they had written the Bishop to take their names of the church roles - and they said no. I have actually helped people leave the church by providing the information they need to follow the simple procedure. They will sometimes suffer the indignity of being asked "are you sure you want to do this" by priesthood leaders on the phone, but its a small price to pay for escape from the Mormons.

[Jeff K.]

Truly, I won't mind if my boy wants to go on a mission. I'll pay for it, too. I will be paying to support him, not to support the church. But you're right, there must be an accomodation. One day soon, there will be. My boys are smart. Smarter than me. The older one already suspects and will soon see through the ruse. The piper will need to be paid. I have no idea what will happen. It's a fact though, that the undeniably awesome resources for family support in the LDS church does not apply if the dad is not on board. Things would be much easier if I could just sit there as a bench warmer, without the insistent, persistent pressure to be a card-carrying priesthood holder and exerciser. Dads at church who don't do these things are second class. I live with the fear that my boys will be disappointed in me daily. It really stinks. Badly. The funny thing is, I have a great job. My wife doesn't need to work. She gets to be there for the kids when they're home from school every day. I'm honest, work hard, do my best to be a good dad, husband, etc. We have a good life. But I'm still unhappy. The fact that I'm in this limbo is the cause. It's unfortunate that I allow the anxiety within to turn into anger at Mormons so frequently, but there it is. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there like me. If nothing else, I hope my experience can show the faithful Mormons here that the reasons for angry apostates are varied and nuanced. It's not a one size fits all reality, as some like to believe.

If its any consolation... My best friend who introduced me to the church and was like a brother to me, also left the church. I do not respect him less, and his advice is still sage. I am only sad he no longer experiences what I experience. Your son will be of the same mind. But only if you trust him enough to share the truth of the matter, not with rancor towards the church but simply a loss that you don't feel a need to regain.

[KevinG]

What if we posed the OP's question to other apostates?

Take Carolyn Jessop for example. She apostatized from a polygamous FLDS sect. She then turned against the community, writing and being an advocate for others who do likewise.

Are we not tempted to applaud her "bravery"?

Yet when some tell the story of escaping the LDS "our" church, we of course react differently.

I'm certian the still faithful FLDS have choice words for Carolyn, Just as many LDS have similar words for their apostates.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Go back and read the OP - those who leave have internal consistency and the integrity of their actions. I was quite clear about that.

Carolyn did not claim to be active FLDS then badmouth her prophet and church. That would be the parallel situation if that comparison was to be used.

I realize that those who present themselves to family and ward as at least marginally active for social reasons yet publish their thoughts on the falseness of the religion quite loudly in private (or anonymous postings) are a subset of apostates, but the dissention within crowd is a very real part of our history and quite evident on the internet where they can be anonymous and apostate without giving up the social bonds of the church organization.

[KevinG]

Maybe what?

Humans aren't social creatures.

Apostates don't have a common bond.

The internet is not a place where those who share a common bond can congregate to discuss matters of common interest.

What specifically do you have trouble accepting?

More over, how many ex members of the ISEE are there, and how difficult was it for them to leave the organization?

If you want to draw any conclusion from an analogy, you need to find a better analogy.

If however, you goal is not to understand apostates, but to find any excuse to criticize them, then by all means proceed with your analogy.

A common interest in complaining about their former religion... to each their own.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 09 February 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

When someone stops going to a baptist church, they tend to leave it alone, they don't lurk in baptist websites and say how wrong the baptists are, or leave and lurk in Catholic websites and attack the Catholic church. Those who leave the Mormons church (including some who decide to stay under false pretense) have a special hatred for all things Mormon. I doubt the anti Mormons who post here spend nearly as much time on any other single place as they do here.

If true, then it would lead me to conclude that ex Mormons harbor a greater degree of hatred towards the LDS Church than ex baptists or ex Catholics have for their former Church.

As people are people, the variable that would seem explain this greater degree of hatred would have the be the LDS Church.

People are people.... The Khmer Rouge, as people are people the killing fields are the fault of the victims and non Khmer groups.

It is always easy to blame the source of hatred, a church, a race, and so on.... it is harder to critically think as to why you are attacking the church when it has no desire to attack you.

[KevinG]

If true, then it would lead me to conclude that ex Mormons harbor a greater degree of hatred towards the LDS Church than ex baptists or ex Catholics have for their former Church.

As people are people, the variable that would seem explain this greater degree of hatred would have the be the LDS Church.

I cannot speak for the Bapstists of Catholics but the ex-mos definately exhibit more hatred for Mormonism than I, an ex-methodist do towards Methodism. The behavioral evidence is quite clear from the amount and vitriol of exmormon sites and comments on the internet. Either that or there are a few hundred very dedicated and prolific writers out there who go to every article and web site about Mormons and paste their essays.

[Scott Lloyd]

My critics thread got so far derailed it didn't even resemble the original topic. Let's try again - I'm not using the word critic in order to prevent confusion. Please don't beat me up for using the term apostate or assume my use of the term applies to all critics.

Here is the question in a more straightforward manner...

Why do avowed apostates seek to have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints change pracices and doctrines when if as they claim the church has lost its authority (or never had it)?

Why not walk away (as millions of converts from other faith traditions have) and allow the Saints to worship by the dictates of their own consciences?

Why not reform or institute a new dispensation if you believe in some of the tennants but don't believe in the authority of the LDS church?

The most honest answers I've received so far were from Pale Rider (he feels its like saving others from a burning building) and Kevin/Xander (the social and family ties are a strong pull for some to pretend belief).

I am a stong believer in the social/tradition pull answer. Mormonism is a very dynamic and lifestyle religion and changing patterns, especially for lifetime or lingtime members may be difficult. But even then if they are openly hostile to the church those relationships are going to be strained anyway.

The solution for some seems to be complain using anonymity on the internet and live an appearantly Mormon life in the "meat world".

Any other guesses?

My guess?

It's an inate desire for self-validation. Watching others depart from the Chruch -- and maybe helping the process along via their own public criticism of it -- gives the apostate an assurance he craves that his decision was correct.

I can understand that desire. Back in the '90s, I was highly critical of the low-carb craze. I regarded it (still do) as nutritional quackery. Hence, I was more than a little satisfied when I heard that the Atkins corporation went into bankruptcy.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

I know lots of people who have left the church—I can think of over a dozen off the top of my head: four of them are former roommates, another four are extended family members. And they've all "left the Church alone." I suspect they're the rule, rather than the exception.

That is good. I suspect there are more anonymous former Mormons than angry ones. It is easier to disappear if you are the lone convert in your family or you live in an area that is not heavily populated by Mormons.

[KevinG]

To summarize:

The reasons some cannot leave the Church alone despite a genuine belief it is not "true"

Strong social bonds (family ties, friends, social groups)

A love for the culture but disagreement with the teachings

A desire to justify their actions and self-validate their decision was correct

Commisserating with like minded people

Disdain for their former religion or co-religionists

Doctrinally: having left neutral ground they must support or fight

Revenge for offenses or abuse they suffered at the hands of Mormons

Please share if I missed anything from this discussion or your own experiences.

Now the follow up question for Mormons... what if anything can we do to prevent or mitigate the conditions in this list?

Off the top of my head D&C 121 comes to mind. Treat our children, members and strangers with love and respect - even in disagreement show our love is stronger than any disagreement.

Edited February 9, 2012 by DaddyG

[Daniel2]

My critics thread got so far derailed it didn't even resemble the original topic. Let's try again - I'm not using the word critic in order to prevent confusion. Please don't beat me up for using the term apostate or assume my use of the term applies to all critics.

Here is the question in a more straightforward manner...

Why do avowed apostates seek to have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints change pracices and doctrines when if as they claim the church has lost its authority (or never had it)?

Why not walk away (as millions of converts from other faith traditions have) and allow the Saints to worship by the dictates of their own consciences?

Why not reform or institute a new dispensation if you believe in some of the tennants but don't believe in the authority of the LDS church?

I'll give you what I believe is my honest answer: Mormons' beliefs don't operate in a vacuum. Your beliefs influence my family (who remain devoutly LDS--and whom I love and value, very much), my neighborhood, the schools my children attend, and the government that operates in the city, state, and even nation where I reside.

I will always defending all of our ability to believe, worship, and retain the same, shared, equal access of the religious freedoms that we all enjoy--whether LDS or not.

Insofar as Mormons will continue to seek to influence our shared government to reflect their values, and inasmuch as those governmental laws and rights impact (and, especially, restrict) my and my family's ability to worship "how, where, and what" I may, or be viewed as equal in the eyes of our shared government, I will continue to associate with, dialogue with, and influence Latter-day Saints (as I expect and accept that they will continue to associate with, dialogue with, and influence me).

That's the reason I'm here.

Daniel2