KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 My critics thread got so far derailed it didn't even resemble the original topic. Let's try again - I'm not using the word critic in order to prevent confusion. Please don't beat me up for using the term apostate or assume my use of the term applies to all critics.Here is the question in a more straightforward manner...Why do avowed apostates seek to have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints change pracices and doctrines when if as they claim the church has lost its authority (or never had it)?Why not walk away (as millions of converts from other faith traditions have) and allow the Saints to worship by the dictates of their own consciences?Why not reform or institute a new dispensation if you believe in some of the tennants but don't believe in the authority of the LDS church?The most honest answers I've received so far were from Pale Rider (he feels its like saving others from a burning building) and Kevin/Xander (the social and family ties are a strong pull for some to pretend belief).I am a stong believer in the social/tradition pull answer. Mormonism is a very dynamic and lifestyle religion and changing patterns, especially for lifetime or lingtime members may be difficult. But even then if they are openly hostile to the church those relationships are going to be strained anyway.The solution for some seems to be complain using anonymity on the internet and live an appearantly Mormon life in the "meat world".Any other guesses?
KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Note: while the last thread veered off into "not all critics are apostates", "I want the church to change but I'm still in it" and "this is the reason I left the church" statements I'd really apprecaite it if this one stuck to the topic at hand.Assume the question "why don't you form your own church?" is genuine and not just a flippant response.
Duncan Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 some people want an audience and frankly the Church is a hot topic but not at the same time -as in the only ones who would know the details would be members of the Church. This former member friend of mine quit the Church and used to email me all the time and bait me and all this nuttiness, he would say we weren't logical or educated when I have more education then he does and the kicker was him telling me about "the Angle Moroni" so I was like yeah, we are uneducated...and dumb...that's obviously anecdotal but I know lots of inactive members who wouldn't or don't as far as I know fight against the Church
KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 I agree there are inactive and disaffected Mormons who don't rail against the Church. I'm addressing the large number who actively oppose the church and its mission with this question.
The Nehor Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I'm gonna go with Joseph Smith's explanation that the witness of the Holy Ghost cannot lightly be cast aside.Although I don't think it is something they are consciously aware of it is a standing rebuke to them so they make endless noise about their escape hoping this time it will actually end.Brigham Young described this on a larger scale about how the Church itself is a rebuke to the world which is why the faith can never know complete peace. The gospel and the world are incompatible and we have a whole book at the end of our Bible describing how that conflict will eventually end. 1
Mudcat Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) edited out by Mudcat Edited February 9, 2012 by Mudcat
Libs Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Why Don't Avowed Apostates Leave The Church Then Leave It Alone?Well.....I had to stop and think whether or not I was an "avowed apostate". I probably fit the bill. I left (the last time) over two years ago and I don't plan on becoming active again...but, I haven't taken my name off of the church rolls, and probably won't.Why don't I leave it and leave it alone? I have left. I even attend another church, which I do enjoy and is much closer to what I believe about God. But, Mormonism is kind of like an old comfortable shoe. I still have a lot of friends and even some relatives in the church, so the subject does still come up. I hear Ward news from my friends and they talk about the church a lot...it is a very large part of their lives. So, unless, I leave my LDS friends alone (which I don't plan on doing), I am still kind of "connected" to the church. I don't mind that, because, as I said, it is a comfort zone for me.I don't criticize the church that much, anymore. I went through a phase of that, but mostly I am okay to live and let live. I might put in my opinion here and there, as I have recently, but it's not something I take real seriously or feel so strongly about that I just go around talking about it all the time.So, I guess I'm not sure what you mean about leaving the church and leaving it alone. For those of us who have connections to the church, through family or friendships, that's not really practical. Are you directing that to, mainly, critics? Or do you think we should just sever all relationships and walk away....or what? Edited February 9, 2012 by Libs
Sky Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 When you joined this Church . . . you [speaking to Isaac Behunnin] left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve it will be by the instigation of the evil one. Quoted by Daniel Tyler, in "Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Juvenile Instructor, Aug. 15, 1892, 492.
Storm Rider Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Well.....I had to stop and think whether or not I was an "avowed apostate". I probably fit the bill. I left (the last time) over two years ago and I don't plan on becoming active again...but, I haven't taken my name off of the church rolls, and probably won't.Why don't I leave it and leave it alone? I have left. I even attend another church, which I do enjoy and is much closer to what I believe about God. But, Mormonism is kind of like an old comfortable shoe. I still have a lot of friends and even some relatives in the church, so the subject does still come up. I hear Ward news from my friends and they talk about the church a lot...it is a very large part of their lives. So, unless, I leave my LDS friends alone (which I don't plan on doing), I am still kind of "connected" to the church. I don't mind that, because, as I said, it is a comfort zone for me.I don't criticize the church that much, anymore. I went through a phase of that, but mostly I am okay to live and let live. I might put in my opinion here and there, as I have recently, but it's not something I take real seriously or feel so strongly about that I just go around talking about it all the time.So, I guess I'm not sure what you mean about leaving the church and leaving it alone. For those of us who have connections to the church, through family or friendships, that's not really practical. Are you directing that to, mainly, critics? Or do you think we should just severe all relationships and walk away....or what?Libs, I don't think this topic or label applies to you. I think it addresses those individuals who leave the church but are unable to stop talking about it. They appear unable to leave, find a new spiritual home, and be at peace. Instead their hearts are full of rancor and bitterness, they attack the Church and its members; it is as they are compelled to attack it. They do not exhibit any degree of happiness with their life or their new choice; they seem motivated to make everyone else feel as they do. We have a few of them on this board. Compulsion is a terrible thing and these are they that are fully in the grasp of the evil one. I do think that some are led to other churches and they find peace and joy. We don't really grasp our Father's plan for each of us and we have to have faith that in the end his Will or plan will be fulfilled if we are each willing to follow him. 1
Libs Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Okay, thanks, Storm Rider. I wasn't sure who the author was talking about, because most people I have known, who leave the church, do go through a phase of talking about it a lot (usually in the negative). But, the talking about it reminds me of the grieving process, like when someone you love has passed away and is just constantly in your thoughts. I do think most who leave go through a type of grieving. Some can get through that phase rather quickly, but for most of us, I think it takes a little longer...it takes some time. Edited February 9, 2012 by Libs 1
KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Well.....I had to stop and think whether or not I was an "avowed apostate". I probably fit the bill. I left (the last time) over two years ago and I don't plan on becoming active again...but, I haven't taken my name off of the church rolls, and probably won't.Why don't I leave it and leave it alone? I have left. I even attend another church, which I do enjoy and is much closer to what I believe about God. But, Mormonism is kind of like an old comfortable shoe. I still have a lot of friends and even some relatives in the church, so the subject does still come up. I hear Ward news from my friends and they talk about the church a lot...it is a very large part of their lives. So, unless, I leave my LDS friends alone (which I don't plan on doing), I am still kind of "connected" to the church. I don't mind that, because, as I said, it is a comfort zone for me.I don't criticize the church that much, anymore. I went through a phase of that, but mostly I am okay to live and let live. I might put in my opinion here and there, as I have recently, but it's not something I take real seriously or feel so strongly about that I just go around talking about it all the time.So, I guess I'm not sure what you mean about leaving the church and leaving it alone. For those of us who have connections to the church, through family or friendships, that's not really practical. Are you directing that to, mainly, critics? Or do you think we should just sever all relationships and walk away....or what?You did join another faith tradition. So you are not one of those who can't leave it but still complain about it. I would never ever reccomend severing relationships! I still have strong relationships with the friends and family that knew me as Methodist. I just don't spend time complaining about their/my former religion. That is the part I don't fully understand. Edited February 9, 2012 by DaddyG
why me Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Okay, thanks, Storm Rider. I wasn't sure who the author was talking about, because most people I have known, who leave the church, do go through a phase of talking about it a lot (usually in the negative). But, the talking about it reminds me of the grieving process, like when someone you love has passed away and is just constantly in your thoughts. I do think most who leave go through a type of grieving. Some can get through that phase rather quickly, but for most of us, I think it takes a little longer...it takes some time.I think that this grieving process is artificial and comes from the internet. It also promotes the victim status and some people like to play the role of victim amd moan a great deal. It becomes perhaps a stress release for other problems that the person is experiencing. When we consider the internet, it is a forum to find like minded people and comform to standard roles. For exmos or postmos, it is coming together to mock and bash everything mormon. I suppose that in this social media age it becomes natural to band together and be a part of a community. Grieving does not necessarily mean that one must complain about the people who just died. Or the organization that one has left. Edited February 9, 2012 by why me
KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Libs, I don't think this topic or label applies to you. I think it addresses those individuals who leave the church but are unable to stop talking about it. They appear unable to leave, find a new spiritual home, and be at peace. Instead their hearts are full of rancor and bitterness, they attack the Church and its members; it is as they are compelled to attack it. They do not exhibit any degree of happiness with their life or their new choice; they seem motivated to make everyone else feel as they do. We have a few of them on this board. Compulsion is a terrible thing and these are they that are fully in the grasp of the evil one.I do think that some are led to other churches and they find peace and joy. We don't really grasp our Father's plan for each of us and we have to have faith that in the end his Will or plan will be fulfilled if we are each willing to follow him.Thanks for saying in one post what I was struggling to describe in two threads!!!
why me Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Libs, I don't think this topic or label applies to you. I think it addresses those individuals who leave the church but are unable to stop talking about it. They appear unable to leave, find a new spiritual home, and be at peace. Instead their hearts are full of rancor and bitterness, they attack the Church and its members; it is as they are compelled to attack it. They do not exhibit any degree of happiness with their life or their new choice; they seem motivated to make everyone else feel as they do. We have a few of them on this board. Compulsion is a terrible thing and these are they that are fully in the grasp of the evil one. And yet, they claim to be happy and at peace with their new life. I have read a few exmo or postmo 'testimonies' and they seem to have a similiar pattern, usually with beautiful moments of discovering the mysteries of life and happy to leave the idea of truth behind to discover many aspects of living life. They claim to be on new mysterious journey filled with the sublime.But i can't say that I buy into their claims. But that is what they claim while at the same time, they attack the lds church on exmo boards.
KevinG Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Some people sure do show happiness in a funny way.
Storm Rider Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 And yet, they claim to be happy and at peace with their new life. I have read a few exmo or postmo 'testimonies' and they seem to have a similiar pattern, usually with beautiful moments of discovering the mysteries of life and happy to leave the idea of truth behind to discover many aspects of living life. They claim to be on new mysterious journey filled with the sublime.But i can't say that I buy into their claims. But that is what they claim while at the same time, they attack the lds church on exmo boards.To me it is not what they say, but how they speak or describe themselves. IF they how happy they are and then rip into the church for the next 150 entries, then I know something does not jive. The tone of their attack on the Church is a dead give-away of the state of their heart. For example, when I read Libs edits, she comes across as measured and without a need to strike out. The field is level - I was a LDS and now I am not. I don't think I will come back. Here are some of my problems/experiences. Then you read some of the other diatribes from others and it is a never-ending attack on the Church, its members, and the culture. They come up with some of the most absurd criticisms, but for them it all sounds appropriate and sane. They do not realize that their feelings are more that of some rabid beast then a well thought out, "I was there, now I am here". I do agree with Libs that leaving the LDS Church is not a simple thing. It is a lifestyle religion; everything we do is centered on the gospel and the Church. It affects every facet of our lives. To leave it behind is wrenching. I could more easily understand if some of these people would come across as how difficult it is to change to something new, but that is too often not what they do. They attack, they seek to destroy, and they are full of bitterness. I have never yet read in any book of scripture how bitterness and hatred come from God. It just does not happen.
Libs Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I think that this grieving process is artificial and comes from the internet. It also promotes the victim status and some people like to play the role of victim amd moan a great deal. It becomes perhaps a stress release for other problems that the person is experiencing. When we consider the internet, it is a forum to find like minded people and comform to standard roles. For exmos or postmos, it is coming together to mock and bash everything mormon. I suppose that in this social media age it becomes natural to band together and be a part of a community. Grieving does not necessarily mean that one must complain about the people who just died. Or the organization that one has left.The grieving was very real for me...and I think for many others who have left. The "banning together" is a way of releasing some of the anger....and attempting to deal with the loss...IMO. The internet has made it possible for people experiencing some of the same things, to come together. Like anything else, it has it's good points and bad. It's good to know there are other people out there struggling as you may be....but, some of these communities go on and on, and possibly drag the process out much longer than is really healthy.
Libs Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I do agree with Libs that leaving the LDS Church is not a simple thing. It is a lifestyle religion; everything we do is centered on the gospel and the Church. It affects every facet of our lives. To leave it behind is wrenching. I could more easily understand if some of these people would come across as how difficult it is to change to something new, but that is too often not what they do. They attack, they seek to destroy, and they are full of bitterness. I have never yet read in any book of scripture how bitterness and hatred come from God. It just does not happen.You have to realize that many of these people are angry with the church for various reasons...that's why they left. Some feel betrayed and that brings out all kinds of emotions. Hatred doesn't come from God, but if you're losing your faith (possibly losing faith in God, altogether) there is going to be some strong emotions involved...very human emotions.
Storm Rider Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Thanks for saying in one post what I was struggling to describe in two threads!!!If I was able to do anything of value, then today has been a good day.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I don't know. To me the Church is such an investment of time, money, emotional energy that to not believe in it but still want to be a part of it is a self defeating proposition. To say nothing of the next life.
DH Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 One could also ask why, when someone leaves the Church and asks not to be contacted by Church representatives, the Church won't leave them alone. I have known a number of people frustrated that the home teachers, visiting teachers, missionaries, and members of the bishopric keep showing up on their doorstep, calling them, or emailing them even though they specifically asked that the Church leave them alone.Maybe "apostates" who don't leave the Church alone are instruments of karma?
Storm Rider Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 That is a problem and will always be a problem as long as there is a lay priesthood and turnover among them. I wonder if we might not paint the houses of people who do not want to be visited with a big NOT sign or paint it black or some other significant sign that warns all LDS to stay the heck away. As part of the return process they could clean it off their home or never have to clean it again as long as the sign shows. There are more ways to skin a cat and keep Karma happy. .
DH Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 It's pretty much inevitable that missionaries will blindly tract people out again, but maybe wards could have a 'Do not contact' list for those who are technically still on the records, but don't want to be visited. And for those who are no longer Church members, make sure to remove their info from all email and home teaching lists. I know, easier said than done, when you have multiple lists floating around, people new to the calling, etc.
DH Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 To get back on topic, I am not an "apostate" myself, and so can't really speak for them, but perhaps it has something to do with the enormous amount of time and effort the Church asks of its members. Then, when someone decides to leave, they feel awful about having "wasted" all that time, energy, and money, and find reasons to blame the Church.In other cases, people may have actually been hurt in various ways by Church leaders or members, or they find some teaching of the Church to have been harmful in their life. Or perhaps they feel deceived because they found stuff out about Church history that they didn't learn in Sunday School. There are probably any number of reasons.FWIW, I have known people who left the Church and also leave it alone. They just go away and we don't hear from them again. But they don't capture our attention like those who keep railing on the Church. Squeaky wheel gets the oil, and all that.
Duncan Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 http://www.ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/9304?ac=1according to this good sister she read the Book of Mormon six times when she was less active!
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