Are We Ever Good Enough?

[KevinG]

When I get weary of the struggle and tired that I'm never "good enough" I consider the two directions I can go in. One is to give up and give in, which will bring temporary relief from struggle but long term loss of joy and growth. Two is to struggle through the temptations and endure, depending on Christ's atonement to make up for my weaknesses, which will bring short term unhappiness but long term joy and fulfillment.

I don't always make the right choice. No mortal does. When I fail I try to repent.

Regarding those times when you and your spouse are of a different opinion that takes a careful balance of discussion, respect and patience. If you do want to discuss it bring it up at a neutral time, not in anger or frustration. Bless you as you keep on keepin on!

[Wants2know]

I wish I can find a blog post about a lady in the Church who either quit the Church and came back or had just stopped attending the Temple altogether but she went back to the Temple, gave it another chance and it changed her, beautiful story! but nuts if I can find it again

Where is garden girl? I think she could speak to this.

[Duncan]

Where is garden girl? I think she could speak to this.

duon't know! come to think of it there are a slew of posters I don't see much anymore, Charity, Charity's Child, Mighty Curelom etc, etc, etc!

[Lightbearer]

Thanks for all the responses. I can't answer every one individually, so I'll make a blanket response.

The Word of Wisdom for my wife (who didn't grown up with it) for the most part she is ok with. She doesn't believe that it was a commandment from God. She says that it was a result from Emma getting tired of the brethern spitting tobacco all over the floor, thus Joseph made it up himself. Is it being disobedient if you break the W.o.W. without believing it? Will drinking a glass of Tea\Wine really prevent one from obtaining the Celestial Kingdom?

That is the real root of the problem, she does not believe it is a commandment of God, even though she was asked if she did (or should have been asked) before her baptism. If one who has been baptized breaks the Word of Wisdom, they break the covenant they made at baptism and that can prevent one from entering the Celestial Kingdom if one does not repent and change for the better. It is not the one cup of wine/tea that damns a person, but the rebellion against God and His commandments (not something Joseph Smith made up to appease his wife).

The W.o.W also states to eat meat sparingly. Does that put someone that eats meat all the time in the same category as someone that drinks Tea, whether its decaff or not? If that is the case than most of us are in a heap of trouble.

This is the classic response of someone who wants to excuse themselves for not living the rest of the Word of Wisdom.

She did return to the temple and had the same experience as the first. Her thoughts are that if Satan is not allowed in the temple than she wouldn't have felt the way she did. She (even I to some extent) was kind of freaked out by the whole experience. She (alone) said that she had a bad/dark feeling inside the whole time, like something wasn't right. We had taken the Temple Prep class 3 times before we actually went.

The problem is if one goes to the Temple unworthy, or unprepared, or with the spirit of the devil with us, he can get to us even in the Temple, that is why we must be worthy of a recommend to enter. It takes the spirit of the Lord to receive and understand the sacred Temple covenants. How it would "freak out" anyone is totally untenable to me, but I suppose if one is unprepared one might have a bad experience, although I could not see how.

She has a terrible time with the whole Polygamy thing. That it is gross, perverted and dirty.

Odd since nobody in the true Church has lived plural marriage in over 100 years. (Not counting the apostate cults who pretend that the Manifesto never happened) Usually the only thing gross, perverted or dirty about it is what Anti-Mormon scum say about it, they tend to hyp up things and view things through carnal and perverted eyes. Making it sound immoral or dirty when it was really not that way. Many people might feel uncomfortable about the idea but since it is not practiced legally today then it is really a non-issue. Just a familiar whipping point for critics, that over the years is rather tiresome. Nobody today can imagine the holiness of the principle of plural marriage because the world is awash in the flith of sexual abominations and cannot believe that it was done with holy and honorable intent. That is chiefly due to our sensationalistic culture and their hypocritical finger pointing against the true church.

She got hold of some Anti sites and went to town with the information she read. She believes that the Church has good fruit (today), but bad roots (beginning).

That is the problem, you cannot build faith by listening to the lies of the "chief priests" or "Judas" it is not possible. How can a bad tree (roots) bring forth good fruit? It can't according to Christ.

I don't know if you call it blind faith, but I've never really questioned any of the Church doctrines or beliefs. Perhaps because I grew up in it. It is very difficult to have your spouse with all of the doubts and questions and not begin to question them yourself.

No the only blindness is the spiritual blindness of your wife, I feel sorry for you, I could not stay married to someone like that.

It does disturb me to think that we are taught that if we don't following the W.o.W or believe everything we're instructed than we will lose out on a Celestial reward and that if we don't obtain a Celestial reward our sealing to our family (including my deceased son) will be nullified.

It would truly be disturbing if we did not loose our Celestial reward if we failed to live up to the covenants we made with God. I guess the problem is you either have to believe the restored Gospel is true or it is not. If you do not believe it is true then the sealing of your family is meaningless anyway and if it is true then we all must strive to live up to our covenants and to seek the love of God that is at the end of the straight and narrow path

[Stargazer]

The Word of Wisdom is Emma's creation? Hmmm. I suppose Moses's wife didn't like pork, then. Minor humor there, but reflect upon the divine mandate to not eat a number of things: pork; shellfish; eels; and so forth. My dear old Dad was convinced that Moses was simply a smart man who somehow realized that pork carried trichinosis and that it was a health rule for that reason. Abstaining from particular foods under divine commandment is not a modern phenomenum. It goes waaaay back. We just have a little more background on why, that's all.

As far as the polygamy thing is concerned, I don't see where the problem is in our day. Really. Except for the fact it is nearer in time to our day. Read the Old Testament sometime. If she can't stand it now and it shakes what is left of her testimony, has she ever reflected upon thousands of years of divinely-sanctioned polygamy as represented in the Old Testament?

I think her problem is with God, not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is possibly where she should concentrate her efforts. Let WoW, polygamy, the temple, and what have you take a back seat. Find God first. Has she ever gotten a testimony of anything?

Jesus himself said many things that drove some of his disciples away because they couldn't quite sign on to what he said. This didn't mean that he wasn't the Son of God, just that some people were resistant to considering what being the Son of God actually meant. They had preconceived notions and could not let loose of them. This was not because Jesus wasn't the Messiah, they themselves were, for lack of a better word, rebellious. "God better be what and who I want, or heck with him!"

[Duncan]

aha! I earlier made mention of a blog post about the Temple and I found it so here it is!

http://postsofmyhouse.blogspot.com/2012/01/house-of-lord.html

[ERMD]

Covenants that we make--baptismal, Priesthood (for men) and temple are all about obedience on our part, and all about love on God's part. We must be obedient in order for the Atonement to have full effect in our lives and for God to be bound to fulfill his part of the covenant. We come to earth for two basic purposes--to receive a body and to obey (I include all saving ordinances in the obedience part). " And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them." It is not necessary to fully understand why we must obey a certain law or commandment. This is not blind obedience; it is faith. "And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me."

When Christ appeared to the Nephites after his resurrection, he stated, "Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning." In other words, he said, "I obeyed. I came and did what the Father told me to do." I find it significant that of all the things Christ could have said first, this was his message.

In my mind, the root causes for disobedience are pride and rebellion, which are inseperably connected. We all struggle with this. Rebellion was Lucifer's sin in the beginning. Rebellion was behind Cain's murdering Abel, because Cain loved Satan more than God. The people of Ammon, who made a covenant to never take up weapons again, turned from their rebellion. "For they became a righteous people; they did lay down the weapons of their rebellion, that they did not fight against God any more, neither against any of their brethren." They laid down both their weapons of war and the weapons of their rebellion.

Once we are truly converted, and become new creatures and experience the mighty change spoken about so often in the scriptures, then we will "have no more disposition to do evil, but to good continually." For some people that is an event. For most I think, it is a process. We must however, continue to strive throughout the process and not accept the things which the Lord declares unacceptable.

[Darth_Bill]

"God better be what and who I want, or heck with him!"

Even JS mentioned that we need to understand God...There are a lot of things that don't make much sense.

[Mudcat]

Any words of wisom (no pun intended) or advice from those out there with the same concerns?

Hi Freedom,

I am a non-LDS Christian and can't speak to your specific issues regarding the Word of Wisdom and your Celestial concerns.

I do understand where you are coming from to some degree, in the sense of being "good enough". Though we are not good enough in the sense of being perfectly good, like Christ is, what is important is that we are "good enough" for Christ.

He accepts us where we are and challenges us to step beyond what we are and to instead become what we can be through Him. Life beats us up pretty good and it's hard to stay focused on the right thing all the time. He gives us the strength to get through it... as long as we are willing to take the strength he offers.

At least as it relates to me, when I slip into wrong action it is usually because I want to do things on my own rather than depend on what I am capable of through him. When I get away from God it's easy to figure out different ways of making myself comfortable in my surroundings and most of those ways don't lead to good ends.

As Christians, repentance seems like a cycle we go through, but hopefully it's something we learn from and have a need to do less of as we conform to Christ's image.

From what I can gather it seems you guys (or at least your wife) are struggling over the "wrongness" of breaking the Word of Wisdom. I am not LDS, I can't really speak to that specifically.. but it seems very similar to what I and other Christians do when we "justify" certain things that are sinful in our minds. Doesn't make them any less wrong or sinful in God's eyes, just makes them easier for us to do. I think we sort of trick ourselves into a condition where we induce a self ignorance of our sinful actions that way.

My advice would be for you and your wife to pray earnestly for God to reveal to you both any obstacles that stand between yourselves and a better relationship with Him. Be consistent and He will certainly make you aware of what you need to do to draw nearer to Him.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Mark Beesley]

I am a lifetime member of the church, my wife is what I call a "reluctant" convert. She believes many of the teachings, but not all. I went through a long period of inactivity, not due to any doctrinal issues or any specific reason. I joined the military and went overseas for a few years and my inactivity just continued when I came home. We have been fairly active for the last 10 years and both hold callings. We don't currently hold active temple recommends. The temple experience was not the "wonderful and glorious" experience that we were essentially promised. We were sealed and took out our endowments. By the worlds standards we are still pretty square and boring people.

Occasionally, my wife still (I guess for a better word) craves a glass of wine or even tea. Every time she makes a pitcher of tea (she doesn't want a lecture) I kind of cringe a little thinking "we're breaking the word of wisdom again". Or any time I watch a football game on TV Sunday afternoon. We don't disire to go out clubbing, or to watch porn, lie, cheat, steal, ect. All in all, we are good people and believers. If we watch a movie with too much sex or bad language we will turn it off. We quit watching "How I met Your Mother" because of that reason. On New Years or our Anniversary we want to have a glass of wine and not have to worry about not going to the Celestial Kingdom because of it. We are taught to endure to the end and it just doesn't look like it's going to happen without making lots of "transgressions" in the process. Perhaps I've interpreted it wrong, but from what I understand that if we don't both make it to the Celestial Kingdom, our sealing will be nullified in whatever kingdom we inherit and we will wind up alone.

We both have a testimony of the gospel, althoug there are some things she disagrees with. I know that we have a living prohet and apostles that are Special Witnesses of Christ. I know that from the reassurance I get each time I listen to them bear the witness that what they say is true.

I guess my point of my rambling on and on is that I feel we aren't alone. We run into the same issue a lot of members I believe have, scared that we are never going to be good enough. Our Bishop's Daughter and her husband (both returned missionaries and lifelong members) have recently left the church for just that same reason. They say that they feel a weight has been lifted off of their conscience and they are now "free". She now has several tatoos and he drinks beer while watching football. I myself would never leave the church (my wife I cannot speak for), it has been my life for 40 years. I know that we aren't perfect beings, any of us and that we are going to make mistakes. I don't feel that drinking a glass of wine a couple times a year (which we don't do, but desire to) or some of the other little things that we might do, would warrant losing our place in the Celestial Kingdom. I stress over it a lot and it occasionaly makes me physically ill when I think about it too much.

Any words of wisom (no pun intended) or advice from those out there with the same concerns?

I hear you. I am also a lifelong member, and my wife is a convert. While I would not call her reluctant, she is not Molly Mormon. Truth be told, when we went through the Temple for her endowment, I was concerned. I didn't know how she would react because it is pretty ritualisitc. However, my concerns evaporated when I looked over at her halfway through the session and saw tears streaming down her face.

Now, I want to be careful not to say anything that will encourage you to violate your covenants. The Word of Wisdom was not initially given as a commandment. It attained that status by a vote of the general membership of the Church. I believe that occurred under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, there is much in the wording of Section 89 that is open to interpretation, and it has been freely interpreted by many. In the end, the Word of Wisdom is between you and the Lord. The temple recommend interview does not ask if you drink a glass of wine, or if you drink caffeineated iced tea. It asks if you keep the Word of Wisdom. You need to answer that for yourself, and to some extent distance yourself from the rhetoric of men. I know that my wife and I both do things that some on this Board, and perhaps even our ecclesiastical leaders, would condemn as violative of the Word of Wisdom. But in the end we are answerable only to the Lord, and if my wife can have the spiritual experience she had in the Temple, and that we both shared when we were sealed some months later, then I think we're ok. But again, you need to work that out with your God.

As to your comment on enduring to the end . . . I have come to the point where I believe that the admonition that we endure to the end is encouraging us to continue trying, and getting up every time we fall, until our life comes to a natural end. In other words, do not get so discouraged so as to end one's life prematurely.

Read the scriptures daily. Pray always. And believe in Christ. You'll be ok.

[KevinG]

Hi Freedom,

I am a non-LDS Christian..

Mudcat is a fine fellow - and the offer stands to fix your "non-LDS" status if you ever find a need to do so! ;-)

[Stargazer]

Even JS mentioned that we need to understand God...There are a lot of things that don't make much sense.

I'm sure even Joseph didn't understand God 100%. That being said, the inability to figure out or understand everything about God and His works isn't a matter of things not making sense, it's a matter of gaining a conviction or a testimony that God actually does exist, and that He is deeply involved your own life. Having acquired this, I can personally testify to the fact that it makes a huge difference in my life. I trust God to be about His business, I go about mine, and I leave the perplexities in His care.

I know people can come up with lots of things that "don't make sense". The thing I have noticed is that things make a lot less sense when you do the thought experiment, "What if God doesn't exist, and the entire Universe is just a random blip in the space-time continuum?" This means that you don't matter, not one bit. Your behavior is utterly of no interest to anyone, because THEY don't matter. Your emotional feelings are just chemical pathways in the brain, and they don't matter. Your wants, dreams, hopes and fears are all just vapor because in the end it won't matter one little bit. You can make some personal effort to gain some satisfaction while you have awareness, and be nice and kind to strangers, have some kind of personally satisfying ethics, but in the end it is all pointless. It won't have mattered whether you lived, died, or never existed at all. So eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.

There was a Soviet defector who went by the code name "Viktor Suvorov". He wrote a book about his experience in the Soviet Army, including his Spetnaz training. He said that they taught him to take pleasure even in his own death. This is the kind of fatalism that it requires to fuily internalize the conviction that there is no God and that you are in the end just a cipher, a nullity, a nothing. This is Nietzsche to the max. I would say that in that moment that you have given up all hope of eternal life that is the moment in which the only thing that matters is the Self. And even that doesn't matter.

I think I prefer the knowledge that God created the Universe, and did so in order that He might raise up more beings like Himself, to Himself, and not merely as a playtoy. Since the Universe is much bigger than I am, it makes perfect sense that it doesn't make perfect sense. I will trust His Word, and that gives me contentment and hope for both my future and the future of my fellow beings. Living in hope completely beats out living only to contemplate the end of life and extinguishment of existence.

.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I hear you. I am also a lifelong member, and my wife is a convert. While I would not call her reluctant, she is not Molly Mormon. Truth be told, when we went through the Temple for her endowment, I was concerned. I didn't know how she would react because it is pretty ritualisitc. However, my concerns evaporated when I looked over at her halfway through the session and saw tears streaming down her face.

[snip /]

As to your comment on enduring to the end . . . I have come to the point where I believe that the admonition that we endure to the end is encouraging us to continue trying, and getting up every time we fall, until our life comes to a natural end. In other words, do not get so discouraged so as to end one's life prematurely.

Read the scriptures daily. Pray always. And believe in Christ. You'll be ok.

Absolutely excellent advice. Good on ya, mate! (even if I'm not Aussie)

[thesometimesaint]

Stargazer:

Smart he was but the deal with pork isn't disease. Clean food, and water take care of those. It is that a desert living people would be in direct competition for that food and water with the pigs.

[ERayR]

Stargazer:

Smart he was but the deal with pork isn't disease. Clean food, and water take care of those. It is that a desert living people would be in direct competition for that food and water with the pigs.

Trichinosis was a very real threat. It is only in about the last 50 years that it has been pretty much erradicated. Granted Trichinosis is not a disease but rather a parasite. However it was a pretty nasty parasite.

[Messenger]

Life never makes an announcement like a G.P.S. .... "You have arrived ".

[thesometimesaint]

Short answer to OP. No; We are never good enough in this life. Longer answer. Without Christ nothing is possible, with Christ everything is.

[KevinG]

Life never makes an announcement like a G.P.S. .... "You have arrived ".

It does however provide a wrong turn sign from time to time.

[Messenger]

It does however provide a wrong turn sign from time to time.

And she sounds like my ex-wife every time she says that! LOL

[The Nehor]

Life never makes an announcement like a G.P.S. .... "You have arrived ".

Mine says in Homer Simpson's voice:

"Woo-hoo, you have reached your destination and you can hold your head up high because you are a genius."

I expect becoming "good enough" is a similar experience.

[followerofemmanuel]

We will never be good enough. Be encouraged again by the scriptures Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Romans 3:22-25 "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" and 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

Blessings,

followerofemmanuel