Sunday Visitors

[emeliza]

On Sunday morning my husband received a call from our Ward Missionary. It seems that week he had gone with the Elders to dinner at a house where the hosts had acted like they were interested in the gospel and then sort of ambushed them with having some more knowledge than had been previously led on. He said they were friendly, but aggressive and basically tried to Bible bash. At he beginning of their meeting though, they had invited the two gentlemen to church and the missionaries had just confirmed to him that they were coming. This brother thought maybe it would be better to have a different teacher since he had already worked with them for four hours that week.

So my husband said he would step in if this brother would teach the 12-14 years old that my husband was subbing. My husband is the Sunday School President so he often is subbing 2nd hour. My husband told me that he would appreciate me coming to GP as well (which of course I wouldn't have missed).

In GP my husband decided his main objective was not to argue, but keep the topic on something we could all agree on. He didn't tell me this, it was just his own thought that Sunday meetings were not for debates. We were on chapter 18, Faith in Jesus Christ which is a pretty neutral topic. It was interesting as one of the two men was more antagonistic toward our beliefs than the other. Another thing is that we had already met this same man before. I believe he is either the pastor of their church (evangelical--nondenomination church) or high up in their congregation. It seems whenever missionaries track out members of their faith, they call for appointments and then bring this guy with. He came to our ward bbq once before and kindly trashed the temple. He has the same ability my husband has to be a friendly jerk. I can't seem to get that way as I am either friendly or a jerk, but you know how some people can be friendly, even though what they are saying is not? He has that.

Anyway he would smirk at things that were said, but was generally well behaved. From where he sat, most people wouldn't have noticed he was smirking. He definitely wanted to talk more than he was given the opportunity.

One thing though that I admit I jumped on was when the other gentlemen was answering a question, he said how we were pond scum (not we meaning LDS, but meaning humans). I get what he meant, he was saying that without Christ we can never 'save' ourselves and that we are basically subject to sin because humans sin even when we are good. I agree. We can't save ourselves and without Christ we are trapped in sin.

But what I don't agree with is that we are pond scum. I spoke up a bit (though not for long as I could tell my husband wanted to go back to more neutral subjects so that we wouldn't lose the spirit). I said that I was a daughter of God and that Christ loved me (and everyone) so much He gave His life for us and if He thought I was worth it and special, shouldn't I? We bantered back and forth a tad bit, but I think we both left the subject still very much on our own concept of it.

I keep thinking about that though. What is the draw there to be better if you think you are pond scum and can't be better? What motivation would there be?

On top of that I think about people on the streets and in the world that don't take care of themselves. Would they be better off in life if they realized who they were and what their potential was? That God loves them for who they are and He wants them to be happy and have a good life and to treat themselves better. That they are children of the most high God. Also that when we remember each person around us is basically holy as they are children of God and we need to treat them like that, don't people typically get along better? Wouldn't that make the place better?

I don't think it takes away from the fact that I still need to rely on Christ and that it is only thru His atoning sacrifice that I have a chance. But maybe it does.

So my question or reason for the topic is just wandering, does it do us better to think we are 'worth it' or to consider ourselves 'pond scum' when we are working on our faith in Christ. Does it take away from what He is to us?

Edited January 4, 2012 by emeliza

[CV75]

So my question or reason for the topic is just wandering, does it do us better to think we are 'worth it' or to consider ourselves 'pond scum' when we are working on our faith in Christ. Does it take away from what He is to us?

You pointed out that some people can act friendly while being cruel. The same with pond scum. People can see themselves as pond scum (Moses 1;10; Mosiah 2:25) in a humble way, and others in a self-flagellating way (which is just another form of pride). Repentance is a principle that both the humble and the proud can apply, but it takes a particle of faith and the attendant humility to do so. Fundamentally everyone has the Light of Christ as long as they haven't snuffed it out.

[Duncan]

You pointed out that some people can act friendly while being cruel. The same with pond scum. People can see themselves as pond scum (Moses 1;10; Mosiah 2:25) in a humble way, and others in a self-flagellating way (which is just another form of pride). Repentance is a principle that both the humble and the proud can apply, but it takes a particle of faith and the attendant humility to do so. Fundamentally everyone has the Light of Christ as long as they haven't snuffed it out.

not to derail this thread but how is "self-flagellating" a form of pride?

[bluebell]

not to derail this thread but how is "self-flagellating" a form of pride?

Have you ever met people who treated their 'humility' as a badge of honor? In the same vein, self-flagellation can become a source of self-righteousness to someone. They are the 'i'm so horrible but i recognize it so that must make me super righteous' types who use their self-flagellation to put themselves up on a pedastal (if that makes any sense).

Edited January 4, 2012 by bluebell

[The Nehor]

So my question or reason for the topic is just wandering, does it do us better to think we are 'worth it' or to consider ourselves 'pond scum' when we are working on our faith in Christ. Does it take away from what He is to us?

I see two ways of taking it.

One is acknowledging how screwed up we all are. This is what King Benjamin probably meant when he said that if you remember your own nothingness before God you will rejoice continually.

The other turns people into total gits and just has a low opinion of everyone. Most of us have met people who have such a low opinion of humanity (including themselves) that nothing is sacred or forbidden. People who truly hate themselves as opposed to being realistic about how screwed up they are usually hate others too. Most Christians who seem to have a hatred of humanity usually seem to worship a rather ugly god too.

[CV75]

not to derail this thread but how is "self-flagellating" a form of pride?

For me, arrogance and low self-esteem are two sides of the same “pride” coin that is manifest by comparing oneself with others with enmity and focusing on the negatives. The punishment (whether the one with low self-esteem is self-flagellating or the arrogant one is bullying others) is executed in a judgmental, unloving way. Quite often arrogance masks low self-esteem and sometimes low self-esteem masks arrogance, but the root of either is pride and both often create enmity between a person and God.

[The Nehor]

For an example of humility gone wrong may I present this?

Start at 4:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbSFO-Foh4M&feature=related

[Lost in Ohio]

I find it very hard to believe that a loving Heavenly Father would give his only perfectly obedient and loving son as a sacrifice for sin for "pond scum" whose only inherent capacity is for depravity and sin. Being overly proud is one side of a coin, the other is being overly self-diminishing. I think Satan uses both to try and disrupt what the normal relationship between ourselves and Heavenly Father ought to be - That of a truly humble people who acknowledge our faults and sins, recognize our inability to save ourselves, repent, exercise fiath and try our best, and accept that through the atonement we can become better than we are. I've never understood the belief by some that God would create a creature whose only capacity is for total depravity.

[The Nehor]

I find it very hard to believe that a loving Heavenly Father would give his only perfectly obedient and loving son as a sacrifice for sin for "pond scum" whose only inherent capacity is for depravity and sin. Being overly proud is one side of a coin, the other is being overly self-diminishing. I think Satan uses both to try and disrupt what the normal relationship between ourselves and Heavenly Father ought to be - That of a truly humble people who acknowledge our faults and sins, recognize our inability to save ourselves, repent, exercise fiath and try our best, and accept that through the atonement we can become better than we are. I've never understood the belief by some that God would create a creature whose only capacity is for total depravity.

It also leads to the problem that if people are truly depraved how in the world would they be capable of recognizing it?

[Jeff K.]

Pond scum is not what God considers us. There is no scripture that says we are pond scum. Generally the scriptures refer to His love for us, sacrifices made for us, and the blessings and gifts we shall all receive such as resurrection and the opportunity to return to Him. Such things are not reserved for pond scum, which by the way has value and was used as an algae food source by the Aztecs and other groups, and is important to the function of various biospheres within an ecosystem. I would not denigrate God by denigrating his creations. I would humbly submit that we may "steward" those creations to exist elsewhere.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Duncan]

Have you ever met people who treated their 'humility' as a badge of honor? In the same vein, self-flagellation can become a source of self-righteousness to someone. They are the 'i'm so horrible but i recognize it so that must make me super righteous' types who use their self-flagellation to put themselves up on a pedastal (if that makes any sense).

I can see that! thanks!

[volgadon]

There is an interesting statement from the Hasidic school of Pzyscha. There are 2 principles to bear in mind. The first is that I am dust of the earth. The second is that the world was created for me. These two statements provide a corrective for each other. If you become prideful you remember that you are nothing. Since that leads to depression and despair remember for whose sake the world was made.

[katherine the great]

There is an interesting statement from the Hasidic school of Pzyscha. There are 2 principles to bear in mind. The first is that I am dust of the earth. The second is that the world was created for me. These two statements provide a corrective for each other. If you become prideful you remember that you are nothing. Since that leads to depression and despair remember for whose sake the world was made.

Do they have a higher than average incident of bipolar disorder?

[The Nehor]

Aslan: "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve and that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

[volgadon]

Aslan: "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve and that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

Aslan too was probably bipolar...

[The Nehor]

Aslan too was probably bipolar...

Nah, Aslan was a Lion so he dodged the whole "having to deal with the ramifications" thing.

[volgadon]

Nah, Aslan was a Lion so he dodged the whole "having to deal with the ramifications" thing.

Don't you dare spoil my psychobiography!!!

[Duncan]

who is Aslan the Lion?

[The Nehor]

Don't you dare spoil my psychobiography!!!

No worries. I'm trying to help by pointing out that Aslan has a deep-seated resentment against humanity because while they are going to live it up in the Millenium he is going to be denied his tasty meat treats and have to eat straw like an ox. Understandably he is annoyed at this impending development.

You should also work in his mommy issues.

[bluebell]

who is Aslan the Lion?

The lion in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

[katherine the great]

Wow Nehor....

[The Nehor]

who is Aslan the Lion?

BLASPHEMY!!!!

Hie thee to a bookstore or library and read the Chronicles of Narnia immediately.

He is a lion stand-in for Jesus in a fantasy series mimicking much of Christianity. A fun read.

I may be biased because as a kid of 8 years old that was the first book I read that ever made me cry (when Aslan was killed) and also contained my first childhood crush (Lucy).

[Duncan]

The lion in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

aha! I wikied it also and found out why I never heard of it or him or her or what have you. My dad is German who survived WW2 and my Mom hates Shakespeare so we were expressly forbidden to have anything to do with British literature. Now that I am on me own I indulge in all things Britain but haven't gotten around to the books yet

[Duncan]

BLASPHEMY!!!!

Hie thee to a bookstore or library and read the Chronicles of Narnia immediately.

He is a lion stand-in for Jesus in a fantasy series mimicking much of Christianity. A fun read.

I may be biased because as a kid of 8 years old that was the first book I read that ever made me cry (when Aslan was killed) and also contained my first childhood crush (Lucy).

i read Encyclopedia Brown, the Boxcar children and the Laura Ingalls Wilder series when I was 8!

[volgadon]

No worries. I'm trying to help by pointing out that Aslan has a deep-seated resentment against humanity because while they are going to live it up in the Millenium he is going to be denied his tasty meat treats and have to eat straw like an ox. Understandably he is annoyed at this impending development.

You should also work in his mommy issues.

Of course I intend on covering the basics.

The key to understanding the course of events in Narniasurrounding the White Queen hinges upon Aslan's childhood. Mumsey used to stick Aslan's head in snowbanks for honing his literary criticisms during her haiku recitals. She failed to understand that when Aslan would point out that English Haku is a worthless travesty he was actually voicing his resentment towards his father getting first dibbs on wildebeest.