altersteve Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 If you give me a rep point for it, I can break 200.Now you have 202.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Thanks, Scott. I appreciate the response, but I really felt that I did all of the right things, including rereading the Book of Mormon. I had always loved the Book of Mormon (and still have an appreciation for it). Things did improve, for a short time, but the old doubts reappeared, after a few months. I don't know that I would call those doubts "weeds". Some of them, perhaps, but not all. They were real concerns. Many of them, actually, did get resolved, at least, to a point where I felt kind of "neutral" about them. What I think about all of that, in retrospect, was that God was leading me in a slightly different direction, for optimum growth. I don't believe he intended the same path for everyone. I realize most LDS won't see it that way, which is why "doubt" is never an acceptable reason for leaving. And, that's fine, I guess. It just gets kind of maddening, at times, to have people thinking they know better...and they know the "real" reasons why you left, etc. Feels kind of condescending from my end.I can only speak theoretically about this, of course. I can't address your personal situation, because I don't know you, and even if I did, I can't peer inside your soul. I do wish you well and, in so doing, express the fervent hope you will one day return to the fold.Add on: Libs, as I have thought about our exchange, the continual impression has come to me that I should include you in my prayers that you will regain your testimony. I invite you to join me in those prayers. If you do, I have faith that God will bless you. You'll remember that I said a testimony is a gift of the Spirit, and the scriptures say we should seek earnestly the best gifts. Please keep me posted. I like to know when my prayers are answered. Edited January 8, 2012 by Scott Lloyd 3
Storm Rider Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Thanks, Storm Rider. I don't really disagree with anything you said. I think, even when we think we have found the "right path", we can stagnate and stop growing....get too comfortable, as you said.I think, it is also true, that we can develop too many doubts, on any particular path, to the point where it makes it impossible to grow, because the doubts take over. They become the focal point and then you can't move forward.Libs, to me doubts are similar to fears. We can choose to live our lives in fear of so many things that we effectively stop living and just exist in a sphere of fear. Finding a faith in God can overcome all fear IF we allow him to be our Master. Agency is the right to choose while discipleship is submitting our will to our Master's will for us. Bad things will continue to occur in our lives, but we know that we walk with our God and are entitled to love, peace, and strength along the way. I am curious to know where you think doubts come from? Are they self-generated or may they be influenced from outside of ourselves?
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I do wish you well and, in so doing, express the fervent hope you will one day return to the fold.Amen!
Libs Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I can only speak theoretically about this, of course. I can't address your personal situation, because I don't know you, and even if I did, I can't peer inside your soul.I do wish you well and, in so doing, express the fervent hope you will one day return to the fold.Add on: Libs, as I have thought about our exchange, the continual impression has come to me that I should include you in my prayers that you will regain your testimony. I invite you to join me in those prayers. If you do, I have faith that God will bless you. You'll remember that I said a testimony is a gift of the Spirit, and the scriptures say we should seek earnestly the best gifts.Please keep me posted. I like to know when my prayers are answered.I appreciate the kind thoughts and the prayers. I would say your prayers are already answered, if you are praying that I have a testimony of Heavenly Father and His Son. I never lost that. My concerns/doubts were about Joseph Smith and the Restoration.I have been richly blessed, in a multitude of ways. I have a deep and abiding love for God and Jesus Christ. I have a beautiful and loving family. I am very rich, in those ways. Leaving the LDS Church left a big hole in my heart for a long time (I've been away for about three years, now), but that is healing, as I find my way on another path. Sometimes God answers our prayers in ways we don't expect...yes?
Libs Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Libs, to me doubts are similar to fears. We can choose to live our lives in fear of so many things that we effectively stop living and just exist in a sphere of fear. Finding a faith in God can overcome all fear IF we allow him to be our Master. Agency is the right to choose while discipleship is submitting our will to our Master's will for us. Bad things will continue to occur in our lives, but we know that we walk with our God and are entitled to love, peace, and strength along the way.I am curious to know where you think doubts come from? Are they self-generated or may they be influenced from outside of ourselves?Doubts can come from both inside and out. I don't see doubt as "always" being like fear, although, they can be. Sometimes we start doubting our beliefs, because they, seriously need to be reconsidered. I was an atheist, many years ago, and at some point, about ten years ago, I started having "doubts" about my atheism. God was speaking to me, I believe, and telling me I needed to readdress those beliefs.
Darth_Bill Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I'm not sure how to equate doubt with fear. I doubt all the time but that doesnt mean im afraid of anything other than being wrong.Apologetics deals with doubt as its root. Some of my doubts came from the logic of our use of the atonement and my doubt of the justice in that kind of system. Does that mean my quest for understanding is evil because upon further study, it no longer made sense to me?
altersteve Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I'm not sure how to equate doubt with fear. I doubt all the time but that doesnt mean im afraid of anything other than being wrong.Apologetics deals with doubt as its root. Some of my doubts came from the logic of our use of the atonement and my doubt of the justice in that kind of system. Does that mean my quest for understanding is evil because upon further study, it no longer made sense to me?Doubt and fear both develop and grow as a result of one thing: a refusal to progress and improve yourself. As Dale Carnegie said, "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage."
Kenngo1969 Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 If you give me a rep point for it, I can break 200.Done! Glad I could be of service!
Darth_Bill Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Doubt and fear both develop and grow as a result of one thing: a refusal to progress and improve yourself. As Dale Carnegie said, "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage."Doubt in what? I have a library of LDS books that I actively read, yet I had doubts grow. My doubts came about because of interaction with life and experience. (I'm very aware that others have the exact opposite conclusion). Doubt doesn't mean that you fail to progress and improve yourself, just that you may be testing an active hypothesis. Doubt doesn't come from inactivity and I hope you don't cling to that premise. Again, my only fear is that of being wrong and possibly social ramifications.
Storm Rider Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Doubt in what? I have a library of LDS books that I actively read, yet I had doubts grow. My doubts came about because of interaction with life and experience. (I'm very aware that others have the exact opposite conclusion). Doubt doesn't mean that you fail to progress and improve yourself, just that you may be testing an active hypothesis. Doubt doesn't come from inactivity and I hope you don't cling to that premise. Again, my only fear is that of being wrong and possibly social ramifications.I don't think that doubt is a function of inactivity; they may not even be directly related. Doubts, in and of themselves, are a normal event(s) in our mortal process; however; retaining doubts, holding them close and continuing to mull over them without any effort to expel them is spirituallyunhealthy. I cannot imagine anyone not having doubts, but we deal with them differently I suspect. Some doubts or questions are unanswerable; these I place on the shelf and hold them back from continued inspection until such time as I find an answer. Everything that demands faith can be accompanied by doubt. But these shadows are the very antithesis of faith and its very being. I don't think of doubt as "testing", but some more insiduous. Questioning is not doubting. I am a skeptic by nature and I don't quickly or easily get on any bandwagon. Even after I have decided on something I often go back and review and refine my thoughts and descisions. I have not viewed this process as determintal to my spiritual health; quite the contrary, it helps me strengthem that which I believe.
Darth_Bill Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Don't questions lead to doubt, or faith. Why is doubt more insidious, if it starts by questioning? I also am a skeptic and even after I got on a bandwagon, it doesn't mean I'm stuck there. I have a lot more information than I did just a decade ago. (And I don't read anti-mormon stuff, unless this site qualifies.)
Storm Rider Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Don't questions lead to doubt, or faith. Why is doubt more insidious, if it starts by questioning? I also am a skeptic and even after I got on a bandwagon, it doesn't mean I'm stuck there. I have a lot more information than I did just a decade ago. (And I don't read anti-mormon stuff, unless this site qualifies.)Questions can lead to doubt, but not necessarily. Questions more often lead to answers. Sometimes, as people of faith, we must accept that we aren't going to receive or find an answer and we live with the question. Doubts undermine faith and can eventually destroy faith IF the doubts are nurtured and strengthened. I don't view doubts and questioning as the same thing; they are quite different.
Libs Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Sometimes, truth can cause doubt, if there is difficulty in integrating it with certain religious beliefs. I see that kind of conflict within religious communities, ongoing, when people try to process/integrate science and religious belief. Some people have no problem doing that. Others have great difficultly with it. Some will say it's clearly a matter of faith; others will say, it's a matter of accepting reality. There is no right or wrong way, IMO. We are all so different and have different abilities, and ways of processing and coping with conflicting information. God made us that way and that's, in part, why I believe he also made a variety of paths back to him.
Storm Rider Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Sometimes, truth can cause doubt, if there is difficulty in integrating it with certain religious beliefs. I see that kind of conflict within religious communities, ongoing, when people try to process/integrate science and religious belief. Some people have no problem doing that. Others have great difficultly with it. Some will say it's clearly a matter of faith; others will say, it's a matter of accepting reality. There is no right or wrong way, IMO. We are all so different and have different abilities, and ways of processing and coping with conflicting information. God made us that way and that's, in part, why I believe he also made a variety of paths back to him.Do you think all of the paths will eventually coalesce into one path?
Libs Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Do you think all of the paths will eventually coalesce into one path?Yes. I'm not sure at what point that will be..but I have some thoughts about it.
Storm Rider Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Yes.I'm not sure at what point that will be..but I have some thoughts about it. Agreed. To me the very meaning of Exaltation is becoming one with our Father in Heaven. At least at that point there will be complete unity. I also think that the closer we get to our Father in Heaven the more open one becomes to accepting Jesus Christ. The more we accept Jesus we accept his teachings. At some point these will come together. i don't think it is necessary in this life simply because a similar opportunity to learn the gospel is given to each mortal individual. The focus then becomes how much truth to we learn and live by. The process of implementing truth differs and some are lead to these different paths by choice and by the will of God. The Millennium seems like the last opportunity to really decide to become one with the Godhead or not.
Libs Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Thank you for your thoughts, Storm Rider.I agree with you about the "unity". I believe we came from God and we will all return, someday, and be in perfect union, once again.
Damien the Leper Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I agree with Paul Toscano when he stated that doubt and faith are twin offspring of genuine spirituality.I also claim that my testimony is not conditional based on accepted general or specific doctrines or creeds or callings.For example, I disagree with the fallacious deductive reasoning that "If Joseph Smith is a true prophet then the Book of Mormon is true". I beg the question "How is it true?" Is it historically true? Is it metaphorically true? Is philosophically true? Is allegorically true?Furthermore, what does truth mean? What does truth say about testimony? Is truth subjective or objective?My testimony is not to be construed as an affirmation of 'known truths' by the general church membership. My testimony is defined by what I have a "pretty good idea" about. Absolute theology stems from the evils of certainty that "hardens faith into arrogance and narcissism". We must always be careful not to cross the hardlines for we risk ourselves.
altersteve Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) For example, I disagree with the fallacious deductive reasoning that "If Joseph Smith is a true prophet then the Book of Mormon is true". I beg the question "How is it true?" Is it historically true? Is it metaphorically true? Is philosophically true? Is allegorically true?More like, "If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a true prophet." That is the reasoning Latter-day Saints use, not the other way around. Joseph Smith being a prophet does not make the Book of Mormon true, but the Book of Mormon being true (i.e., what it claims to be) does make him a true prophet. Edited January 11, 2012 by altersteve 1
Libs Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I have always said, I received a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but not of Joseph Smith. That doesn't make sense to some people (and maybe it doesn't make sense), but that was my experience. After I left the church, I rationalized that it might have been because Joseph was a "fallen" prophet. But, I don't really know. It's not something I think about, much, anymore.Absolute theology stems from the evils of certainty that "hardens faith into arrogance and narcissism". We must always be careful not to cross the hardlines for we risk ourselves. I like that. I think that's very wise.
Storm Rider Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I have always said, I received a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but not of Joseph Smith. That doesn't make sense to some people (and maybe it doesn't make sense), but that was my experience. After I left the church, I rationalized that it might have been because Joseph was a "fallen" prophet. But, I don't really know. It's not something I think about, much, anymore.I have never felt a great affinity for Joseph Smith. To me he was a prophet used for the restoration, but that fact did not lead to any form relationship or even a deep admiration of him. This position has always caused me to feel a little off relative to other members. My beliefs have always been focused on God the Father. I don't think we need anything other than our belief in God to be a good Latter-day Saint.In fact, I don't think we need to have a deep, abiding admiration for any of the prophets. I can say I have a deep admiration for BY, DOM, SK, but after those three I have not really cared one way or another for the prophets. Some of the apostles have impressed me deeply. I am just a little weird I guess. Edited January 11, 2012 by Storm Rider
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