Anakin7 Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 I have been visiting with a Baptist Minister on occassion while I have been taking my wife to work this past month. He is a Southern Baptist minister and we have been having discussions with each other. I wish to note that he is very caring and non agressive in his meetings with me. He is passionite regarding about what he obseves as polythieism in LDS doctrine. I told him we believe in the Biblical term "Godhead" and a phrase I use in Theological terminology - "Anchient Monarch Eastern Economic Social Godhead Trinity". I believe he see's the later as a smoke screen to hide our supposed polythieism. He asked me how many universes there were, I told I did not have an exact # but asked me if it were in the billion or billions and pressed me about my belief. I stated possibly a billion. He then said that if each universe had 1 God that meant there were billions of Gods and not 1 God of Reality [Which to me sounds like a philosophers statement]. I had stated to him that members of the Godhead/Trinity are one in Godhood/Nature/Love/Covenant/Power/Authority and spiritualy interpenitrate one another and they know each others thoughts. He then stated that if that was the case all the billions of gods throughtout the billions of universes were in that room we were in because they all interinterpenitrate one another and all [Gods in Billions of other universes] knew of our conversation in that room , and asked me if I believed that billions of Gods were in that room which he stated if I did believe that I was no different that a Buddist/Hindu or pagan and that The Apostle Paul would be greatly offended and set me straight. I also told him of Anchient Heavenly Assembly/Council and gave him Gen:1-2, Duet 32: 8-9, Job 1:6, Isaiah 40-48 [ But did not remind him this was from 2nd Isaiah and not written by Isaiah himself]. I did state to him in the Isaiah passages that it was a courtroon phraseology scene statements and the "only God" "I know not any" before me after me were exclucivity of a swettheart in anchient middle east thought. He stated that he was going to ask an individual from the middle east if that was the case or if the passages meant no other gods period. I would ask that your posts be Christlike and with love as I will be sharing these thoughts from you with him.Thank you for your time and thoughts. Any links/material would be of value. May True Grace be with you all. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHTI did state to him that I would start a thread on this and get thoughts from you all LDS JEDI KNIGHT MASTERS and share with him in our next encounter.
orion88 Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 In a likewise fashion, I met with 2 missionaries from Utah while in Canada.I pointed out to them a teaching by Mr. Smith in the 1997 version of Gospel Principleson page 305 - "It will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346)."It was like "pulling teeth" but they finally admitted to believing that Heavenly Fatherwas once a man who became a God.They are nice people. We can always share our faith if we don't agree with eachother on major points.
Anakin7 Posted December 31, 2011 Author Posted December 31, 2011 In a likewise fashion, I met with 2 missionaries from Utah while in Canada.I pointed out to them a teaching by Mr. Smith in the 1997 version of Gospel Principleson page 305 - "It will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346)."It was like "pulling teeth" but they finally admitted to believing that Heavenly Fatherwas once a man who became a God.They are nice people. We can always share our faith if we don't agree with eachother on major points. I think you may have left out an importan 5 words - "The same as Jesus Christ'
orion88 Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 I think you may have left out an importan 5 words - "The same as Jesus Christ'I don't think the Utah missionaries doubted that part.
Anakin7 Posted December 31, 2011 Author Posted December 31, 2011 Okay. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
bluebell Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 I can completely understand why he would think our interpretation of Godhead is a bit of a smoke screen to hide polythestic realities in our religion because i believe that the doctrine of the Trinity as he believes it is also a smoke screen created specifically to hide polythestic realities within his religious belief (and i note that most Jews seem to agree with me on that as they denounce the Trinity as polythesim regardless of how much Christians claim it's not).I guess you could try to get him to engage the topic from the point of view of the Jewish belief that the Trinity is a polytheistic belief system and see if how he feels about their declarations that he is a polytheist regardless of what he claims. It might help him to see our beliefs in a different light, at the very least. 1
cdowis Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Explain to him kindly that we accept the teaching of Christ as found in John 17:19-23. BTW, take a look at the last line of the Statement of the Three Witnesses, where it gives the phrase "one God". Your minister is mistaken. Says so right there in the beginning page of the Book of Mormon.
Anakin7 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 Explain to him kindly that we accept the teaching of Christ as found in John 17:19-23. BTW, take a look at the last line of the Statement of the Three Witnesses, where it gives the phrase "one God". Your minister is mistaken. Says so right there in the beginning page of the Book of Mormon.His Criticism is that acoording to Joseph Smith it was revealed that God The Father has a Father which is Jesus Christs Grandfather and with a eternal progression of Fathers who are gods over there own universes and have there own saviours. So there is no ultimate GOD of reality which is absolute polythiesm. And since they all interdwell with one another there were billions of gods listening to the conversation he and I were having in his office. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Anakin7 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) His Criticism is that acoording to Joseph Smith it was revealed that God The Father has a Father which is Jesus Christs Grandfather and with a eternal progression of Fathers who are gods over there own universes and have there own saviours. So there is no ultimate GOD of reality which is absolute polythiesm. And since they all interdwell with one another there were billions of gods listening to the conversation he and I were having in his office. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT Any thoughts ?. Edited January 2, 2012 by Anakin7
blackstrap Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I have a hard time visualizing multiverses,so I contemplate only separate galactic Gods or perhaps supercluster Gods. In all seriousness, your minister seems to be trying to stretch a 1 inch rubber band to a distance of 10 miles.
Anakin7 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Posted January 3, 2012 I have a hard time visualizing multiverses,so I contemplate only separate galactic Gods or perhaps supercluster Gods. In all seriousness, your minister seems to be trying to stretch a 1 inch rubber band to a distance of 10 miles. Okay, anyone else ?. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Anakin7 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Posted January 3, 2012 Anyone with any thoughts ?. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Storm Rider Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Anakin, the conversation for me is a non-starter. Critics like to go to topics where we have so little understanding and so very little revelation. Joseph said and had written many things and some of what he said falls into this area of little understanding or further clarification by him or any other prophet. Do I believe in multiverses? Who cares is my knee-jerk response in all honesty. It is so far out of the realm of important doctrine that the answer is meaningless. What is absolutely clear in the Bible and in the writings of the Early Church Fathers is that the early disciples believed firmly in man becoming gods. Was their understand the same as ours? In so many ways yes, but they used a different vocabulary to describe it at times. Is being a god being a deity? No. I try to pull people back from that which we understand but little and focus them on what is vital to LDS. What is the meaning of holiness? What is the meaning of being born again? Is being born again an event or a process? Are we judged by our works? What is a joint-heir with Christ? What is repentance mean to a person who is saved?
Anakin7 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for SharingIn His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 In a likewise fashion, I met with 2 missionaries from Utah while in Canada.I pointed out to them a teaching by Mr. Smith in the 1997 version of Gospel Principleson page 305 - "It will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346)."It was like "pulling teeth" but they finally admitted to believing that Heavenly Fatherwas once a man who became a God.They are nice people. We can always share our faith if we don't agree with eachother on major points.Jesus Christ did the same.
Storm Rider Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Jesus Christ did the same.It never fails to amaze me that a Trinitarian has no problem with Jesus becoming a man and yet is God and yet howls in derision that LDS say God was a man and was God. Jesus so clearly stated that I only do what I have SEEN my Father do. The scriptures are lost on them and they do not understand them or they flattly reject all scripture that disagrees with their manmade doctrine. I am a LDS that does believes that God was always God and yet God was a man. Show me a Trinitarian that disagrees with this statement and I will show you an inidividual who does not understand their own doctrine. 1
Anakin7 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Visited wth the pastor again today [ He is Christlike and Charitable, not in any way the LDS Conference street preacher type]. However he got out his Oxford English Dictionary and looked up polytheism - read the definition which one of the meanings "a belief in multiple dieties". I read and showed him the http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Polytheism from the F.A.I.R site. He felt that the article shifted the meaning of polytheism to avoid the reality of our true belief. Any thoughts ?. In his Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited January 7, 2012 by Anakin7
Libs Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Does it matter if Mormonism is polytheistic? The definition of Henotheism seems a better fit.
Saints Alive Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Is there a difference between being a Deity and being a god (or god like; which, is all we are promised)?This Ministers intentions, no matter how well intentioned they are, is to get you to believe how he believes.I highly doubt that you will convince him that LDS beliefs are acceptable or nonpolytheistic. The best you can do is explain what you honestly believe. If he brings something up that you dont understand or don't know how to explain I would say that.
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