The God Of Atoms

[katherine the great]

This seems reasonable,but it can be shown that there are seasons of the year where many more deaths occur.

On a side note: have you noticed that the vast majority of people die within 6 months of their birthday?

Isn't that amazing?

[inquiringmind]

Which seasons?

Edited December 27, 2011 by inquiringmind

[katherine the great]

I think I remember reading that summer has the most accidental deaths. I would guess that winter has the most natural deaths, but that is just a guess.

[inquiringmind]

I think I remember reading that summer has the most accidental deaths. I would guess that winter has the most natural deaths, but that is just a guess.

I know a lot of suicides occur this time of year, and I do understand the depression that David H. Smith was struggling with.

I'm interested in August 29th (and the whole question of "coincidence") for very personal reasons, and I've done a lot of research on it.

It would seem that in the history of the Roman Catholic Church (which has been around about ten times longer than the restorationist movement) there has only been one Pope who died on this date (Pope Pius VI), but in the history of the LDS/RLDS (which have been around a little less than 200 years) there have been three prominent leaders who died on this date (which is also the anniversary of a significant doctrinal announcement that helped define the differences between the two branches.)

That seems a little less likely than finding two out of fifty people with the same birthday.

My question here is whether such coincidences must necessarily mean something (assuming that there is a God, and time is one eternal round to Him.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Edited December 27, 2011 by inquiringmind

[katherine the great]

I wouldn't consider David a prominent leader of the RLDS. His brother Joseph III of course, and even his son, but David's career was rather short lived. He seemed to have been much more an important and beloved member of the Smith family than an important religious leader. I don't think the date of death means anything here.

[inquiringmind]

I wouldn't consider David a prominent leader of the RLDS. His brother Joseph III of course, and even his son, but David's career was rather short lived. He seemed to have been much more an important and beloved member of the Smith family than an important religious leader. I don't think the date of death means anything here.

His career was no doubt cut short by his illness, but he was counselor to the first president (his brother), and given the principles of succession in the RLDS, wouldn't being an important member of the Smith family amount to being a prominent leader?

If not for his shortened career, and his premature death, isn't it even conceivable that he could have been President?

Be that as it may, I'm really more interested in the principle here.

So let's just look at the date of Brigham's death.

Out of the 365 days of the year that he could have died on, he died on the anniversary of the polygamy announcement.

I don't know what that could mean (and I suspect it could be viewed differently depending on whether you're LDS or RLDS), but my question is whether such things must be intended by God to mean something?

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Are some things "coincidence," and what does that mean?

Can randomness exist in the universe?

How can God roll dice when He controls the dice, and knows how they're gonna land before they're rolled?

Does every striking (or seemingly unlikely) "coincidence" have to have some intended meaning?

These are questions I've been asking myself, and I'd appreciate your thoughts here.

Edited December 27, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Stargazer]

That may be, but what of circumstances that would seem to have nothing to do with agency (unlike the outcome of a football game, which would have a lot to do with practice time, dedication, leadership, management, etc.)

Brigham Young, David Smith, and Joseph F. Smith didn't choose when they would die.

But they all died on the same day (see post #11, above.)

Are such "coincidences" designed to mean something?

Of course they mean something! Or, maybe not...

October is an interesting month in my family.

• My parents were married on October 5
  
• I was born on October 3
  
• My brother was born on October 21
  
• My mother died on October 23
  
• My father died on October 17
  
• My brother's wife was born on October 15
  

Not all in the same year, of course. And note that all those dates are odd numbered!

But is there something special about October? Or odd numbered days in October?

Nah.

[inquiringmind]

Of course they mean something! Or, maybe not...

October is an interesting month in my family.

• My parents were married on October 5
  
• I was born on October 3
  
• My brother was born on October 21
  
• My mother died on October 23
  
• My father died on October 17
  
• My brother's wife was born on October 15
  

Not all in the same year, of course. And note that all those dates are odd numbered!

But is there something special about October? Or odd numbered days in October?

Nah.

Not exactly an answer (or maybe it is--I don't know.)

Thank you for commenting.

[inquiringmind]

Odd coincidence.

Your mother died on the same day as Anicius Manlius Severinus Boëthius.

He was a 6th century Christian Philosopher and Roman Senator who ended up being wrongfully imprisoned and executed.

While in prison he wrote The Consolation of Philosophy, which is something I've read some of (or at least as much of as I could find online.)

He opposed Augustinian predestination, and had a lot to say about freewill (but I'm not sure he ever answered the kind of questions I'm asking here--which is why I'm still fishing for thoughts.)

Thank you.

Edited December 27, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Duncan]

Check your facts.

Yes, they all died in different years, but they all died on the anniversary of the polygamy announcement (which was on August 29th, 1852.)

Brigham Young died on that date in 1877, David H. Smith in 1904, and I don't remember what year Joseph F. Smith died (not the Joseph F. Smith who was President of the Church, but the other one.)

All on the same day of the year.

That still leaves the question of whether such things mean something?

What do you think?

I think if God was displeased there would have to be more compelling or convincing evidence then these fellas all dying on the same day.

[thesometimesaint]

If you live long enough something is going to kill you.

[LeSellers]

Both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died 4 July 1826, on the putative anniversary of their most important achievement.

One would be hard-pressed to claim anything but coincidence, although because it was that anniversary, we might say they willed themselves to live until that date. Many people die on or just after birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, etc.

However, since Brother Brigham, Joseph's son and President Smith (there were two Joseph F(ielding) Smiths in the presidency, one from 1901~18, the other from 1970~72) would none of them have considered the public announcement of Plural Marriage to have been anything worthy of note, I can't see how this would factor in.

Lehi

Edited December 27, 2011 by LeSellers

[Rivers]

Do you think you could elaborate on that a little?

And could we forget about the two cars?

Two cars would have two drivers, and that would complicate the equation by adding issues of freewill and agency (i.e. was one of the drivers drinking, driving too fast, or talking on a cell phone?)

The examples I gave don't seem to involve such issues.

Brigham, David, and Joseph all seem to have died of natural causes, on the same day of the year.

Does that mean that God willed that for some reason?

Does it mean something?

I'm simply saying that I don't think that every time something bad happens, it was God's will. I don't think that every time somebody dies, that it was "their time." I don't view every early death of a member of the church as a mission call to the other side. It seems that a lot of religious people have the view that God manipulates just about every event that takes place. I don't think like that.

And I think the whole thing with Brigham Young and David Smith is nothing but a coincidence.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Rivers

[Stargazer]

Not exactly an answer (or maybe it is--I don't know.)

Thank you for commenting.

Of course it's an answer. Coincidence is meaningless -- except when it isn't. October dates in my family are meaningless coincidences. That the prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple to restore keys on the same day that Jews worldwide celebrate Passover, and coincidentally leave an empty place at the table in case Elijah happens to stop by, is not. He came on the day he was expected to come -- just not to those who were expecting him (or not as the case may be).

[selek1]

Actually, the Universe as we can observe it is clearly analogous to a clock once made and started by its maker, and subsequently allowed to run its course without further intervention. However, the kicker here is "as we can observe". If the clockmaker stays out of the limelight (which he must, in order to preserve Agency, as TSS says), this does not mean that he is uninvolved. Deism is, in my opinion, merely an admission that we cannot see where God involves himself. Or it is a willful choice to ignore those instances where He does. Depends upon your experience.

I have found that God has made clear to me, personally, that He knows who I am, and that He has certain expectations of me. The clarity of this is entirely subjective, however. I can tell people why it is clear to me, but since my reasons can only be described by me, and cannot be observed by them, they have no objective reason to consider my reasoning. Except as a springboard for seeking similar experiences to mine.

So I can tell you that Deism is not valid, and I know it is not because God has spoken to me in response to my earnestly seeking His will, and has thus deeply involved Himself in my own life. Now, I will admit that I don't know if it was the Father, Himself, personally, speaking, or His servant the Holy Ghost, but inasmuch as He has said "whether by myself or my servants, it is the same," it is a distinction without a difference.

I think is Godhood 101 to be able to set a Universe into motion in just such as a way that it evolves exactly as desired without further direct intervention; it's not that He doesn't intervene, it is just that He doesn't need to intervene. But yet He does, at least where us volitional children of His are concerned.

Well said, sir!

Bravo Zulu!

Edited December 27, 2011 by selek1

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

God is involved in everything. There is nothing going on in the universe that he does not know. He knows every detail down to the structure of every atom. He knows what is happening, and he knows what will happen to every individual in the cosmos. To be less than this he would cease to be God.

So where do your beliefs fit in. How omnipresent is God to you?

Knowing and being involved are not the same thing.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You mean He doesn't really care about BYU football?!?

No the Georgia Bulldogs. I thought everyone knew that?