Quote From Lds.Org About Bom Translation

[Sevenbak]

The only boss I see there are peoples imaginations.

Satan didn't get his power out of thin air, and he didn't learn anything new either. Why stop at just believing the Satan side? God's power is greater, and it's not imagination.

[Sevenbak]

Once you start thinking about the weird stuff it leads to more weird stuff.

Sounds like porn. I'd stay away from it if I were you.

[Log]

What is your proof that it isn't occult?

You advanced the assertion that it was occult. Burden of proof is yours. Retract at your convenience.

but you were the only one right?

Strangely, no.

And this is yours. But I overstated it, I should have stated many members would be embarassed for you.

Can you name any who would be embarrassed for me? I can only think of one - you - and it appears that your membership is on paper only.

[Calm]

What do you think? How was the BOM translated? Excluding the power of god part.

Kind of misses the whole point if you do this...

And if God was included then nothing else really matters.

[altersteve]

Mikew, once again, the Church teaches what is important, and what is important is that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. What matters is that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that it teaches His gospel in its fullness. What matters is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's authorized institution on this earth, and that through it one can receive the blessings, ordinances, and happiness that cannot be found anywhere else. What does not matter is the exact method of Joseph Smith's translation. It has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness of the book whatsoever.

Study the book, ponder it, and ask God in the name of Christ if it's true, and eventually you will know the answer. If you've been a member of the Church for as long as you say you have, then either you've never truly received such a witness, or you've forgotten it. I think that's the first thing that needs to be examined. Do that first, and remember that a testimony of the Spirit telling you that the Book of Mormon is true is infinitely more powerful than any critical argument against what a believing Latter-day Saint already knows.

Orson Scott Card put it best:

I clearly remember the epiphany I had as a child: If someone [Hugh Nibley] this smart, this rigorous of thought, this widely and deeply educated believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, and the Church is God's kingdom on earth, then I will not let myself get swept away by whatever questions come up in my life. I'll question my questions, I'll doubt my doubts, confident that one way or another, everything will be reconciled.

In other words, truth is truth, but our understanding of it any point in time is bound to be so limited that even our knowledge contains enough ignorance that it's foolish to jettison something important and good merely because of slight, temporary contradictions.

Take Brother Card's advice here and be skeptical of your own skepticism. There are scholars who understand the history of the Church -- the seer stones, the treasure seeking, the parallels with Freemasonry, the multiple First Vision accounts, the Book of Abraham issues, and more -- yet they still believe. So you can still believe too. All it takes is some time to take a few steps back, reassess, study, and pray, and everything will fall back into place.

[MIkew]

Are you a seer, did you see God and an angel telling you that you were chosen and had gifts to that end? Did you experience them in your youth and so knew that they were telling you the truth? If not, I highly recommend you listen to Church council and refrain from mediums.

There is no other way, so listen to the "teacher\leader\bishop\stake president\GA\Apostle\Prophet\scripture"... It's good council.

No I am not a seer, I don't think Joseph was either.

The teacher\leader\bishop\stake president\GA\Apostle\Prophet are just good guys, like you, I will not give any of my free will to them again. If they were interested in the fate of my soul or those like me they would address all the issues in detail so we could make a choice with the full facts.

I talked to my bishop first, he was a deer in the headlights. I talked to my stake president, he was behind the times as far as these issues go(polygamy was because there were so many woman, multiple versions of the first vision etc). I then talked to another member of the stake who is part of FAIR, he could only confirm the weird stuff and bear his testimony. After that I am left alone to make my own decisions and choices based on the facts as I see them. Which is a hard thing when you have spent you life doing what you are told, thinking what you are told to think.

[Stargazer]

I think I can expect a full explanation from the church, I think investigators deserve a full explanation. If you think it is ok to leave stuff out because it will only make sense once you already believe, I think you are manipulative and dishonest.

And yet, this is exactly the course Paul the Apostle took when teaching the Corinthians.

Paul wrote:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

1 Cor 3:1,2

So you are saying that he was manipulative or dishonest? Perhaps you may, but the precedent exists, and it is a valid principle, despite your dislike of it.

If something is true the spirit could testify of it, right, so why worry if something is off putting. Why not allow people to have a choice wether or not it matters to them?

They do. If I have not told them every bit of every nuance of how Joseph translated the plates, or, rather, received the contents of the plates directly from God (which is the more accurate summation), then they can get the rest of the story later, once they have believed. Or not.

You seem to think that one must have a Master's Degree in Mormon Studies before you can make a decision on whether or not the Church is true. Not even the ancient apostles required that every proselyte exhibit knowledge of every aspect of the Gospel before baptizing them. By necessity, lots had to be left out. In fact, some people joined the church, then and now, who barely knew anything at all, except that they recognized the truth of it and glommed onto it with every fibre of their being.

Paul on the road to Damascus hadn't even gotten the standard missionary discussions, and yet he was ajudged capable of being made a member of the church.

You expect too much. You are holding the Church to a higher standard than you could possibly hold even to God -- because God sent you here knowing absolutely nothing whatsoever except how to suckle. The spirit seeks to work with you, but how can it when you insist upon rejecting what you have been taught, simply because you haven't been taught every little jot and tittle. You won't know Jack until you die and get resurrected, Mike, and suddenly everything you ever learned here about everything will seem like the smallest particle of the tiniest fragment of the truth. And you think there's a problem with the Church not making a particular point of the head in the hat?

What is it about "line upon line and precept upon precept" don't you get, anyway?

[MIkew]

Satan didn't get his power out of thin air, and he didn't learn anything new either. Why stop at just believing the Satan side? God's power is greater, and it's not imagination.

I believe that belief is a powerful thing, nature is a powerful thing, love is a powerful thing. I don't see much that could only be explained by God's power in my everyday life.

[MIkew]

Sounds like porn. I'd stay away from it if I were you.

Porn????

[MIkew]

You advanced the assertion that it was occult. Burden of proof is yours. Retract at your convenience.

Says you.

Strangely, no.

You got me here.

Can you name any who would be embarrassed for me? I can only think of one - you - and it appears that your membership is on paper only.

Assuming you have never born testimony that you received revelation, then no one feels embarassed for you. Getting kinda personal aren't you. That was kind of mean.

[MIkew]

Kind of misses the whole point if you do this...

Or maybe the whole point.

And if God was included then nothing else really matters.

exactly

[Stargazer]

So it's the hat that is troubling you? Does it matter if it's a Urim and Thummim hid away for centuries by Moroni, a stone found in a well by Joseph, or a silver goblet used in ancient egypt... all done by prophets and seers

Do you turn off the lights in a theater so you can see the projection better? Joseph was focusing on the light, not dwelling in darkness. The hat was just a tool. He could have easily thrown a blanket over his head.

Actually, what it looks like to me is that he is embarrassed about the hat and/or the stone.

What comes to mind is the people in the great and spacious building pointing fingers and mocking those who partook of the tree of life in Lehi's dream. Many who noticed the pointing fingers and ridicule were ashamed of what they had done in partaking of the fruit of the tree, and departed in embarrassment.

[Log]

Assuming you have never born testimony that you received revelation, then no one feels embarassed for you.

I have borne such testimony. Strangely, nobody present was prideful, or arrogant, enough to let me know they were "embarrassed" for me for so doing.

Getting kinda personal aren't you. That was kind of mean.

Was it? Edited December 3, 2011 by Log

[MIkew]

Mikew, once again, the Church teaches what is important, and what is important is that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. What matters is that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that it teaches His gospel in its fullness. What matters is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's authorized institution on this earth, and that through it one can receive the blessings, ordinances, and happiness that cannot be found anywhere else. What does not matter is the exact method of Joseph Smith's translation. It has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness of the book whatsoever.

Study the book, ponder it, and ask God in the name of Christ if it's true, and eventually you will know the answer. If you've been a member of the Church for as long as you say you have, then either you've never truly received such a witness, or you've forgotten it. I think that's the first thing that needs to be examined. Do that first, and remember that a testimony of the Spirit telling you that the Book of Mormon is true is infinitely more powerful than any critical argument against what a believing Latter-day Saint already knows.

Orson Scott Card put it best:

Take Brother Card's advice here and be skeptical of your own skepticism. There are scholars who understand the history of the Church -- the seer stones, the treasure seeking, the parallels with Freemasonry, the multiple First Vision accounts, the Book of Abraham issues, and more -- yet they still believe. So you can still believe too. All it takes is some time to take a few steps back, reassess, study, and pray, and everything will fall back into place.

You are doubting I have been a member my entire life? Weird.

One of the church's teachings that really bothers me is the one about the gift to believe on someone elses testimony, total garbage. If you can't have your own testimony well what's the point.

It is important to know if you have been fooled. Which I think we have been.

Edited December 3, 2011 by MIkew

[MIkew]

Actually, what it looks like to me is that he is embarrassed about the hat and/or the stone.

What comes to mind is the people in the great and spacious building pointing fingers and mocking those who partook of the tree of life in Lehi's dream. Many who noticed the pointing fingers and ridicule were ashamed of what they had done in partaking of the fruit of the tree, and departed in embarrassment.

I didn't post today to do anything other than see how people think that the quote from the gospel art picture kit was honest or not. I think about this stuff all day long, seriously. You can believe all you want. If I was looking for opinions that matched mine there are other websites I could have posted on. I had no problem with the stone and hat until I learned other things.

Edited December 3, 2011 by MIkew

[MIkew]

I have borne such testimony. Strangely, nobody present was prideful, or arrogant, enough to let me know they were "embarrassed" for me for so doing.

Was it?

Sorry I meant to type, Assuming you have never born testimony that you received revelation from a rock.

[altersteve]

You are doubting I have been a member my entire life? Weird.

One of the church's teaching that really bothers me is the one about the gift to believe on someone elses testimony, total garbage. If you can't have your own testimony well what's the point.

It is important to know if you have been fooled. Which I think we have been.

So you put words in my mouth and complain about how "total garbage" you think the Church is instead of responding intelligently to what I actually said? Okay. If that's the direction this discussion is going to go, then I'm out. I'm sorry for trying to help you.

[Stargazer]

There is no easy way out of the church. It has been gut wrenching\heart breaking\depressing\sad\frustrating\embarassing\tiring, etc...

Why would someone not want to believe anymore? Being a believing Mormon is a good life. I had\have a good life. Can you not undestand that these type of things really bother people?

I understand quite well. I've been a member of the Church as long as you have been. I wasn't born into it, but found it in my 15th year of life. And I've known these things that are causing you problems for a very large portion of that time. Why haven't they bothered me like they seem to be bothering you? Why can you not trust what the Spirit has told you before? Suddenly everything you've ever felt that you've received as a witness through that Spirit does not mean anything? You had a will to trust in the Lord at one time. What has caused this to go away?

What you seem to have lost track of is simply this: it doesn't matter what the world thinks. The Bible is full of very unbelievable tidbits that are very much like the hat and the stone thing. What you are having tortured thoughts about are highly similar to things the world has known about for literally thousands of years, and yet, for some reason, the world, or at least the Christian and Jewish world, hasn't had much problem about it. At least not until these days when we seem to have developed a highly scientific cynical outlook. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Oh, and by the way, these types of things don't bother all people. Just some of them. Here is your homework assignment: why would it bother some, and yet not all, and in fact, not even a large minority of those who know?

Edited December 3, 2011 by Stargazer

[MIkew]

Was it?

I am assuming by your comment about my membership you are saying I am a bad member. I have served in almost every ward postion other than Bishop. I have always been a full tithe payer, until recently. I taught my kids the gospel, I married in the temple. I served a mission. I have never said no to a calling. I said my prayers. etc....

I have in no way been a bad member. I really feel like the church would rather lose people like me than deal with these issues openly. People like me are an acceptable loss to the leaders of the church.

Edited December 3, 2011 by MIkew

[MIkew]

So you put words in my mouth and complain about how "total garbage" you think the Church is instead of responding intelligently to what I actually said? Okay. If that's the direction this discussion is going to go, then I'm out. I'm sorry for trying to help you.

That wasn't my intention, sorry man.

[Log]

I am assuming by your comment about my membership you are saying I am a bad member.

The subtext to this thread has been apparent to me from your first post. You have chosen your path out of the church.

[MIkew]

I understand quite well. I've been a member of the Church as long as you have been. I wasn't born into it, but found it in my 15th year of life. And I've known these things that are causing you problems for a very large portion of that time. Why haven't they bothered me like they seem to be bothering you? Why can you not trust what the Spirit has told you before? Suddenly everything you've ever felt that you've received as a witness through that Spirit does not mean anything? You had a will to trust in the Lord at one time. What has caused this to go away?

What you seem to have lost track of is simply this: it doesn't matter what the world thinks. The Bible is full of very unbelievable tidbits that are very much like the hat and the stone thing. What you are having tortured thoughts about are highly similar to things the world has known about for literally thousands of years, and yet, for some reason, the world, or at least the Christian and Jewish world, hasn't had much problem about it. At least not until these days when we seem to have developed a highly scientific cynical outlook. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Oh, and by the way, these types of things don't bother all people. Just some of them. Here is your homework assignment: why would it bother some, and yet not all, and in fact, not even a large minority of those who know?

I have a few thoughts about this. Belief is the most powerful thing I know. Growing up in the church honesty, following the prophet, keeping the commandments, the church is true have all been drilled into me. I also bought into it, 100%. I had experiences that I identified as spiritual. Over time you hear bits and pieces of the anti mormon stories. None of those things ever bothered me. Later I heard or read the story about Joseph asking Heber Kimball to give him his wife vilate. I thought to myself there is no way a prophet would do that to someone, but I just did what I did with any church thing that bothered me. I put it on a shelf and went on with my life. Then other little things would come up and I would put them away and not worry about it. Until one day I decided it was time to figure out what all those things were about. Once I started looking into it I could see what the anit mormons were talking about, lot's of weird stuff. Then eventually I was left to decide if I could still believe if these other things actually transpired. The answer is no I can't they are just too contrary to the belief I once had. I also reject believing because someone else does, I guess I worded that poorly earlier as I insulted altersteve. Everyone who I have talked to or read about has a complicated testimony once they come to terms with the weird stuff. I think it doesn't bother some because they have decided that no matter what they will believe, I just can't do that.

Edited December 3, 2011 by MIkew

[MIkew]

The subtext to this thread has been apparent to me from your first post. You have chosen your path out of the church.

That is definitely where I am headed.

[Log]

That is definitely where I am headed.

That conceded, are you then, by your own estimation, currently a good member, or are you instead currently a member on paper only?

[MIkew]

That conceded, are you then, by your own estimation, currently a good member, or are you instead currently a member on paper only?

I am still a good member as i haven't given up yet. Do you have to be participating in the program to be a good member?