Quote From Lds.Org About Bom Translation

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think this is a historical writing issue, I could be wrong. It is that the church claims to be the source of all truth, so it should be in all things, without question, especially so when it comes to it's own foundational story.

No, the church does not claim to be the source of all truth. It only claims to be the true church of Christ.

[altersteve]

MIkew, you need to understand a few things. First, there has never been any Church leader, as far as I am aware, who counseled us to "stay away from stuff not produced by the church." We are counseled to avoid purchasing anti-Mormon (not necessarily critical) material, because doing so contributes to their cause, but there has never been any teaching that we are to never read unofficial works about Church history (I highly recommend Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, the definitive biography on the Prophet and one of my favorites). You are correct that we should try to use Church-published materials in Church lessons (although this isn't always true either, since I've heard President Monson quote and teach from Charles D|ckens' A Christmas Carol, among many, many other examples), but this counsel is not meant to include our own personal study.

You also need to realize that the Church only tells us things that we need to know. Remember, the Church's job is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to tell us everything about its history. There are other sources for that. All the Church tells us about the Book of Mormon translation is the same explanation Joseph himself gave, that it was done by the gift and power of God. That's all the Church needs to tell us because in the long run that's all that matters.

Furthermore, it is incorrect that the Church "claims to be the source of all truth." What the Church claims is that it teaches the fullness of the gospel, which is that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." This is very different from claiming to be "the source of all truth." But there is truth that is not taught or emphasized in the Church, for example, that is taught and emphasized in other religions and in other sources. Joseph Smith taught us to "gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons." Receiving truth, no matter where it comes from, he said, is "one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism."

Edited December 2, 2011 by altersteve

[cinepro]

Yes. I seem to remember President Hinckley quoting the Anchor Bible in conference. Seems a reasonable repudiation of the idea that we only consult LDS authors.

Close. It was Elder Hinckley.

And he quotes "The Anchor Bible Dictionary", which might be the same thing as "the Anchor Bible", but it might not be.

Edited December 2, 2011 by cinepro

[MIkew]

No, the church does not claim to be the source of all truth. It only claims to be the true church of Christ.

My patriachal blessing says different.

[Scott Lloyd]

Being selective with the facts is not honest.

Think of the logical implications of what you are saying. Do you really think it is possible to include every single thing about a gospel topic in one 40-minute class period? Hardly. It is necessary to be selective in what material is covered, but that doesn't amount to dishonesty.

You began this thread by saying,

Hi all, before I post my question I will let you know that I haven't been to church in while and I am pretty certain it isn't "true" but I think about it all the time so I am obviously not done with it. If that makes sense.

I'm guessing there's a whole lot of detail to your having concluded the Church isn't true, detail you have chosen not share with us because, in your judgment, it is not necessary for us to know. You are being selective. Are we to conclude from that that you are being dishonest? i would say no, but it illustrates that everyone is selective and that selectivity does not necessarily equate to dishonesty.

[MIkew]

MIkew, you need to understand a few things. First, there has never been any Church leader, as far as I am aware, who counseled us to "stay away from stuff not produced by the church." We are counseled to avoid purchasing anti-Mormon (not necessarily critical) material, because doing so contributes to their cause, but there has never been any teaching that we are to never read unofficial works about Church history (I highly recommend Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, the definitive biography on the Prophet and one of my favorites). You are correct that we should try to use Church-published materials in Church lessons, but this counsel is not meant to include our own personal study.

You are right I should have been reading other things. I should not have trusted what the church produced. Out of curiosity have you ever read anti material?

You also need to realize that the Church only tells us things that we need to know. Remember, the Church's job is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to tell us everything about its history. There are other sources for that. All the Church tells us about the Book of Mormon translation is the same explanation Joseph himself gave, that it was done by the gift and power of God. That's all the Church needs to tell us because in the long run that's all that matters.

What about that year we spend being taught church history(every 4 years), or the institute classes or the BYU degrees, it must be important.

Furthermore, it is incorrect that the Church "claims to be the source of all truth." What the Church claims is that it teaches the fullness of the gospel, which is that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." This is very different from claiming to be "the source of all truth." But there is truth that is not taught or emphasized in the Church, for example, that is taught and emphasized in other religions and in other sources. Joseph Smith taught us to "gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons." Receiving truth, no matter where it comes from, he said, is "one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism."

My patriarchal blessing says different.

[Brant Gardner]

I don't think this is a historical writing issue, I could be wrong. It is that the church claims to be the source of all truth, so it should be in all things, without question, especially so when it comes to it's own foundational story.

Wow, so many things to parse. First, I am unaware that the church claims to be the source of all truth. Brigham Young thought that there would be truth in many places, and that as truth, we would embrace it -- but that is hardly saying that the church is the source.

Then, to take that shaky premise and superimpose it on a demonstrable historical process seems a bit odd. I agree that we are called Latter-day Saints, but the "saints" part clearly doesn't imply what it does in Catholic theology. There is humanity in all history, including that promoted by any church.

[MIkew]

Think of the logical implications of what you are saying. Do you really think it is possible to include every single thing about a gospel topic in one 40-minute class period? Hardly. It is necessary to be selective in what material is covered, but that doesn't amount to dishonesty.

You began this thread by saying,

I'm guessing there's a whole lot of detail to your having concluded the Church isn't true, detail you have chosen not share with us because, in your judgment, it is not necessary for us to know. You are being selective. Are we to conclude from that that you are being dishonest? i would say no, but it illustrates that everyone is selective and that selectivity does not necessarily equate to dishonesty.

Hardly the same, not even close. I put that part in there so that no one wondered where my thoughts were on the subject, I was trying to do the opposite of being misleading.

[Brant Gardner]

My patriarchal blessing says different.

I respect patriarchal blessings, but not as a source of binding analysis on the nature of the church.

[MIkew]

Wow, so many things to parse. First, I am unaware that the church claims to be the source of all truth. Brigham Young thought that there would be truth in many places, and that as truth, we would embrace it -- but that is hardly saying that the church is the source.

Then, to take that shaky premise and superimpose it on a demonstrable historical process seems a bit odd. I agree that we are called Latter-day Saints, but the "saints" part clearly doesn't imply what it does in Catholic theology. There is humanity in all history, including that promoted by any church.

I may be crossing over with God and church as I have always seen them as the same thing. God is the source of all truth but we get access to God through the prophet. Other thoughts like God leads the church, etc.

Plus my patriarchal blessing says that in the church/gospel all truth can be found.

So are the convoluted thoughts going through my head.

Edited December 2, 2011 by MIkew

[MIkew]

I respect patriarchal blessings, but not as a source of binding analysis on the nature of the church.

Is that because you don't really trust someone elses inspiration? It doesn't fit with what you believe?

Just like no one here would actually trust a revelation that came from a rock today.

[MIkew]

(I highly recommend Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, the definitive biography on the Prophet and one of my favorites).

Prior to Rough Stone Rolling what lds author (in good standing) was writing about Joseph Smith's treasure seaking, face in hat translation, alcohol drinking, etc.?

[altersteve]

You are right I should have been reading other things. I should not have trusted what the church produced.

That's not what I meant to say. Of course you should trust what the Church produces. There is no contradiction between what the Church says and what actual history says. The Church says that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. That is in no way contradictory to the historical record.

Out of curiosity have you ever read anti material?

Yes, but I've never purchased them. They're crap.

What about that year we spend being taught church history(every 4 years), or the institute classes or the BYU degrees, it must be important.

I never said Church history isn't important. Of course it is.

My patriarchal blessing says different.

What your patriarchal blessing says does not have authority over anyone else or over the Church as a whole. It is only meant to act as an inspired guide for your life, and not an infallible one.

Please remember that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the only religion that God reveals His word to. He has raised up prophets, leaders, and teachers here and there throughout the world's history, and reveals portions of His word to all people, regardless of religion. As one Church leader put it (I can't remember who exactly), we Saints cannot accomplish God's work by ourselves. 2 Nephi 29 is the best chapter to read about this.

Prior to Rough Stone Rolling what lds author (in good standing) was writing about Joseph Smith's treasure seaking, face in hat translation, alcohol drinking, etc.?

I can't name any off the top of my head at the moment, but there were several, going all the way back to the 19th century. Nobody has been excommunicated for writing about these topics.

I find it interesting, however, that Joseph's treasure seeking troubles you. It was a common, accepted, and even respected practice of the time that many viewed as an opportunity for employment, and a practice that Joseph put behind him long before the Book of Mormon was translated. As for Joseph drinking wine, it is important to remember that the Word of Wisdom had not yet been established as a commandment when it was given. Several early Church members and leaders, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, continued drinking wine, smoking, and chewing tobacco because these issues were not as prevalent as they are today. The most important thing to remember is that the Lord reveals His will "line upon line, precept upon precept." In other words, as circumstances change, our understanding will also grow, based on what the Lord reveals to His prophets over tme.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My patriachal blessing says different.

Fine but your blessing is just that, "your blessing". That is not the church telling everyone to stay away from non production materials.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Prior to Rough Stone Rolling what lds author (in good standing) was writing about Joseph Smith's treasure seaking, face in hat translation, alcohol drinking, etc.?

Um, I just linked you to 2 people that have talked about the "face in the hat". You ignored that. Something tells me that you are trolling for responses.

Are you going to bring up that "You just learned that JS had a gun at Carthage" chestnut?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Craig Paxton]

Apologetics and excusses aside...bottom line...the church misrepresents reality...knows it does...and doesn't care that it does..because it serves their interests as an institution to do so.

See problem solved...

[altersteve]

Are you going to bring up that "You just learned that JS had a gun at Carthage" chestnut?

I have no idea why, but when I read this I somehow randomly envisioned that scene in Scarface where Tony Montana yells, "Say hello to my little friend!" and then blows the door down with his grenade launcher, except taking place in Carthage Jail and with Joseph Smith instead of Al Pacino.

Just thought I'd share.

[MIkew]

Please remember that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the only religion that God reveals His word to. He has raised up prophets, leaders, and teachers here and there throughout the world's history, and reveals portions of His word to all people, regardless of religion. As one Church leader put it (I can't remember who exactly), we Saints cannot accomplish God's work by ourselves. 2 Nephi 29 is the best chapter to read about this.

I would like to read that if you can remember who said it.

I find it interesting, however, that Joseph's treasure seeking troubles you.

It troubles me because he used the same method to find treasure that he did to "translate" the BOM.

As for Joseph drinking wine, it is important to remember that the Word of Wisdom had not yet been established as a commandment when it was given. Several early Church members and leaders, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, continued drinking wine, smoking, and chewing tobacco because these issues were not as prevalent as they are today.

This bothers me because of how important that story is of Joseph as a boy not accepting the alcohol when he was getting an operation. Why do we teach that one to our kids?

[MIkew]

Something tells me that you are trolling for responses.

Are you going to bring up that "You just learned that JS had a gun at Carthage" chestnut?

You are right I posted this topic to get responses, you figured me out. Seriously, I think about the church non stop, I have been an active member for almost 40 years, served in many callings(non stop since I was 12). I am 100% sincere when I say that I feel the church has been dishonest. I am also willing to admit I could be 100% wrong about that.

I have no problem with Joseph having a gun, why would that be a problem. I don't remember the story exactly but I don't think he asked for it. Didn't someone just bring it to him?

[MIkew]

Apologetics and excusses aside...bottom line...the church misrepresents reality...knows it does...and doesn't care that it does..because it serves their interests as an institution to do so.

See problem solved...

If it is that easy why do I think about this all the time? I should just be able to put ignore it or walk away, like I do with dishonest people in my life.

[altersteve]

I would like to read that if you can remember who said it.

"[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves." - Orson F. Whitney, from the April 1921 General Conference

It troubles me because he used the same method to find treasure that he did to "translate" the BOM.

This tells me how little you understand the whole issue.

This bothers me because of how important that story is of Joseph as a boy not accepting the alcohol when he was getting an operation. Why do we teach that one to our kids?

I've never heard that before. But that doesn't bother me, even if it is true, because there are probably a more factors that go into that than simply the fact that he didn't want to accept the alcohol.

[MIkew]

This tells me how little you understand the whole issue.

Please tell me more.

I understand:

1. that he used the same rock as a medium for looking for treasure that he did to translate the bom
   
2. that burried treasure also had treasure guardians(moroni)
   
3. that if you didn't do what the treasure guardian said you could not get the treasure(lots of instructions from moroni to get the treasure)
   
4. No sane mormon today would claim using a stone as a medium
   

[MIkew]

I've never heard that before. But that doesn't bother me, even if it is true, because there are probably a more factors that go into that than simply the fact that he didn't want to accept the alcohol.

http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=af5d5991d66db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[TAO]

Mike... there are some things you need to consider.

Number 1: Remember, the church's job is to preach repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not history. Not criticisms. But repentance, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is the history of the church. And there are criticisms of the church. But to the church, those are not essential. The church's job is to lead people to Christ, through repentance and faith. That is why it is here upon the Earth. When we try giving people the meat before they have had milk, they choke, and possibly die. This is why it is important for things to be taught in the Lord's due time. In many ways, I am grateful to the church for not going into to much detail about history. Not only would it distract the spirit, but also, many are not ready to deal with all the criticisms that come from many sides. I finally came to the point where I was able to confront the criticisms, and beat them. Those who are not able to, it is best to not have them confront. Instead, the focus should be on building the spirit and faith inside them, so when the trial of their faith comes, they are ready. That is the job of the church... and they do it quite well... repentance, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I am happy with it =).

Number 2: Moroni says "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:5). This is how, through the church, you may come to know the truth of all things. It is not that the church teaches the truth of all things (there are so many truths that would be exhausting). What the church does teach though is to trust the spirit, which does teach the truth of all things. In this way, by following the guidance of the church, you may receive the truth God wishes for you to receive at this moment in time. Learning, doesn't stop on Earth. Learning continues in the afterlife, and we will have many things to learn after we are dead before we are even ready for the things the Lord would like us to do. Our job doesn't stop here. And some truth is hidden, with good riddance, and it will be revealed when the Lord wills it, if he wills it, in due time. Be patient, and trust the church. The church is not perfect. But the church does do the best job it can. The leaders of the church are by far the most impressive living spiritual leaders today, and they do a great job, imho. They truly do help us to become like Christ.

Number 3: You need to try and exert some more faith. You seem to have already given up, part of the way, in any case. Why do so? Don't you remember the time when the spirit whispered to you the right thing to do? Grab a hold of that, and speak to him again. The spirit will tell you the truth of all things. But what the spirit will also do is help you build a foundation of faith. Who cares about the doubters, because I know what I have experienced. That is what you must become, that is what you must remember. You must remember the things, the feelings, the attitudes, the experiences, that led you to faith in Christ and hold to it. Hold to it like you are holding onto the Iron Rod. Because it will lead you to Christ... those fond feelings will blossom into faith, if you just let them, and shelter them from the criticism that is inundating your mind. Kick out the criticism; don't think on it anymore; remember your old faith, and things will become right. Hehe, there's a really good line from "Kite Runner" that fits here... it is "There is a way to be good again." Because truly there is. If you choose it, despite your odds. Because if you choose it, the way is open, and clear, and obvious... you just can't back down.

Meh, I don't know if all of this applies to you, but dude, seriously, don't give heed to the criticisms, without remembering your faith first. And give your faith first choice, because that is the prudent thing to do. Good Luck.

Best of Wishes,

TAO

Edited December 3, 2011 by TAO

[TAO]

If it is that easy why do I think about this all the time? I should just be able to put ignore it or walk away, like I do with dishonest people in my life.

It's because history is very hazy, and the church is not easily dismissed away as untrue. Because it becomes a part of you. And there is a ton of opinions out there that like to crush down. You've got to forget them for a moment, if you want to believe the church is true, so you can gather your strength, and fight them.

Or at least, so you can choose, if you would like. It is your choice alone. That it is, my friend, your choice, and yours alone. So is the way of life. And yet, would we have it be any different? I wouldn't... I guess it may be hard, but, I like it. =P.

TAO is a very weird person XD.

Edited December 3, 2011 by TAO