Concerns About People Falling From The Faith

[LeSellers]

BTW, the money that comes from these investments is the source (or was in the past) for the modest stipends paid to General Authorities (when they accept them—frequently not the case). The U&I Sugar Company's president was, in 1953, David O. M^cKay.

I can't say what happens now, but tithing monies were not the source of those stipends, neither when I was a child nor a young man. The Church has divested herself of many of those investments, and no longer controls the companies on whose boards the Authorities sat. It may well have been carping such as we are seeing here that influenced these decisions.

Joseph Smith, according to Brigham Young, preferred keeping the Saints happy over making a profit in his mercantile store. So the Church may be following his path and giving up valuable resources to keep a vociferous minority appeased (which, if my observations are reasonable, will not happen in any case).

Lehi

[Scott Lloyd]

It doesn't matter what the lds church says. People who wish to make hay will always try to make hay. Such facts go in one ear and out the other ear.

I have given a suggestion in the past to people who complain that not enough of the money being channeled through the Church of Jesus Christ goes to help the poor and needy. The suggestion is this: The complainers themselves could donate to the Church's humanitarian efforts and its welfare program or perhaps to the Perpetual Education Fund. That way, there will be more funds to help the poor and needy.

I'm afraid my suggestion has fallen upon deaf ears.

[zerinus]

Here is the problem: if a member of the church views that film and that is all they know about the life of JS, they are heading for a fall when they read Rough Stone Rolling. I think that in many ways the makers of the movie got JS right. But the facts that have been omitted would create possible problems for people who would search the internet and read about his life.

Well it has never been a shock to me; I don't see why it should be to anybody else. Nobody is going to join the Church on the basis of watching that movie alone; although it may set their minds thinking along the lines of further investigation. They will join the Church when they read the Book of Mormon and receive a spiritual witness of its truth. It is that spiritual witness that will thereafter keep them within the fold, provided that they continue to nurture it and not quench it by failing to observe all the covenants they entered into when they joined the Church. I don't see how it is going to help anybody to start them off with stories of any goofy stuff that the boy Joseph may have got up to.

[Scott Lloyd]

This is correct, and wise. There are people who would use this kind of information for nefarious purposes. Why did you want it?

Lehi

It occurs to me that those who complain about the Church not publicizing its financials are by-and-large people who do not contribute to the Church.

As a full tithe payer, I trust the leadership of the Church to use the funds appropriately, and I don't require a detailed accounting. On the contrary, I would be uncomfortable if such an accounting were publicized, this because of the likelihood that antagonists would use the information to propagandize against the Church.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[LeSellers]

Repost of a part of a response above, for clarity

The church doesn't disclose financial information - I went to the church office building & asked for a budget & was told that.

This is correct, and wise. There are people who would use this kind of information for nefarious purposes. Why did you want it?

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

Repost of a part of a response above, for clarity

This is correct, and wise. There are people who would use this kind of information for nefarious purposes. Why did you want it?

Lehi

Maybe the same reason why I compare prices when I shop, or why I budget, or why I vote for certain things... to see that money is spent wisely, not foolishly.

If I'm going to spend 1/10 of my income...

which if I made $50,000 a year, I'd pay $5,000/year to the LDS church for tithing (not humanitarian or fast offerings to help the poor - just tithing to be used in other ways)...

And if my income continued 70 years of my life... that would be $350,000.

To not question where that money (& many other's "donations") are being spent is financially & even spiritually & socially irresponsible.

Why would I NOT ask?

[LeSellers]

Maybe the same reason why I compare prices when I shop, or why I budget, or why I vote for certain things... to see that money is spent wisely, not foolishly.

So you believe that eighteen* of the most honest men, the most humble men, the most righteous of men in the world are going to spend God's money "foolishly"?

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, making known the disposition of the properties tithed as named in the preceding revelation, Section 119.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the [presiding] bishop and his council, and by my high council [Apostles]; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.

It's called the "Council on the Disposition of Tithes".

If I'm going to spend 1/10 of my income...

You are not buying temples and chapels. You are not buying cleaning supplies, missionary tracts, and hymnbooks.

You are "buying" obedience and the blessings that come with it.

To not question where that money (& many other's "donations") are being spent is financially & even spiritually & socially irresponsible.

Why would I NOT ask?

Because it's not your money!! You get what you pay for. This is not a negotiation. The Lord has established a rigorous system for determining how His money is disbursed. I am not a part of that system, and neither are you.

Tithing is not like taxation, where a guy with a shiny badge, a fancy hat, and a big gun comes to your door and demands you pay him what he thinks you owe or die. Tithing is a voluntary contribution. If you do not want to pay it, don't pay it.

"Socially irresponsible" drags into mind a very left-wing college professor or high school teacher browbeating his class into seeing personal responsibilities and liberties as passé while touting collective duties and obligations as paramount. God does not work that way.

To demand that God give you an accounting of how He spends His money is just a tad arrogant, at least in my book.

Lehi

Edited November 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[cinepro]

We can compare salt lake to detroit and see just where you would prefer to live. Or for that matter many cities in the usa that have been hit hard by the recession and job situation. Did you experience downtown salt lake in 1981 during the recession? Many problems and going out of business signs. Not good for any city. I think that it is in the church's interest to keep downtown salt lake vibrant.

The difference between Salt Lake and Detroit isn't that one city has a nice mall downtown and the other doesn't. The difference is that one city had its primary industry go into serious decline, and the other didn't.

If Salt Lake City depended on the unionized auto industry as much as Detroit does, there's nothing the Church could do to stop its decline. They could build 10 fancy malls and a zillion luxury condos and it wouldn't make a difference.

[why me]

The difference between Salt Lake and Detroit isn't that one city has a nice mall downtown and the other doesn't. The difference is that one city had its primary industry go into serious decline, and the other didn't.

If Salt Lake City depended on the unionized auto industry as much as Detroit does, there's nothing the Church could do to stop its decline. They could build 10 fancy malls and a zillion luxury condos and it wouldn't make a difference.

Salt Lake could be terribly mismanaged and a complete ghost town if it were in the wrong hands. What keeps salt lake moving forward? It is a city surrounded by mountains located in a valley. Not much to brag about and yet, it is doing well. Why? Because of good investments in the infrastructure.

[why me]

10. Substance abuse...

Utah ranks 4th nationwide in overdose deaths

http://www.standard....overdose-deaths

I don't think that this has much to do with mormonism. I think that it has much to do with Utah. When I lived there in the early 80s I was bored stiff. I found it a very depressing place but nice nature if one could get out of the city. I am sure that it hasn't changed much since then. How many nonmembers are on antidepressants? I would think quite many. Lets face it...it is not the most exciting place to be. Also, I think that culture has much to do with it too...Utah mormons seem to live in a pressure cooker because the church is everywhere. I don't think that mormons outside the corridor are prone to suicide or antidepressants. But america is a prozac nation.

[HeatherAnn]

I have given a suggestion in the past to people who complain that not enough of the money being channeled through the Church of Jesus Christ goes to help the poor and needy. The suggestion is this: The complainers themselves could donate to the Church's humanitarian efforts and its welfare program or perhaps to the Perpetual Education Fund. That way, there will be more funds to help the poor and needy.

I'm afraid my suggestion has fallen upon deaf ears.

You must be kidding, right?

Do you realize that some people go into debt to pay tithing?

Do you realize that they not only pay tithing, but also they pay fast offerings & other donations... not to mentioned the hours & hours of free volunteer service given to the church - to perform callings, clean the buildings etc.

The money people pay, they do so with trust that it will be spent for GOD's WILL - not greedy people's will.

The church, especially the leaders who are stewards over tithing...are responsible to spend the sacred tithes in ways established by God.

The greatest commandment is to LOVE... to love God, & others as ourselves.

And as we love others (even the poorest of the poor) we love God... "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTZFIcqnQMg

[Scott Lloyd]

You must be kidding, right?

While I didn't anticipate the average faultfinder would take my suggestion, I was very much in earnest when I made it.

Do you realize that some people go into debt to pay tithing?

I'm unpersuaded that tithing is typically to blame for people going into debt. I think it has more to do with living beyond one's means or, in some cases, unfortunate circumstances such as catastrophic health care costs.

Do you realize that they not only pay tithing, but also they pay fast offerings & other donations... not to mentioned the hours & hours of free volunteer service given to the church - to perform callings, clean the buildings etc.

This pretty much sums up my own experience; why would I not realize that this is the pattern with others as well? It's my perception that the people who are characterized by such faithfulness are typically not the ones complaining about the Church not publicizing its financials. Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here.

The money people pay, they do so with trust that it will be spent for GOD's WILL - not greedy people's will.

I agree. So far, you've provided nothing to persuade me that it isn't being spent in accordance with God's will. And I categorically reject the unfounded insinuation that the Church leaders are spending the money to gratify their own greed.

The church, especially the leaders who are stewards over tithing...are responsible to spend the sacred tithes in ways established by God.

Agreed. I trust them implicitly to be true to that responsibility, especially since they seek, are entitled to and receive revelation from God about how to disburse the tithing funds.

The greatest commandment is to LOVE... to love God, & others as ourselves.

And as we love others (even the poorest of the poor) we love God... "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -Matt 25:40

That is why the Church teaches us to pay a generous fast offering and to give to humanitarian funds and other worthy causes as our means allow. That is why I try to do so.

And if you believe, as I do, that the establishment and growth of the Church and Kingdom of God on earth is the best hope for mankind, then the payment of tithes is quite in line with such love.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

Reminds me of the NTSB finding in many aircraft accident reports that the fatal crash was the result of a failure to maintain sufficient altitude.

Now THAT is funny!

[jo1952]

name='LeSellers' timestamp='1321290220' post='1209065620'] Perhaps correct, but more than a little misleading. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is not necessarily The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as we know it today, but there is only one Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints that has existed from Adam to our own time. It has had various manifestations (we call them "dispensations") and may possibly have gone by other names throughout the millennia (e.g., Judaism), but in all time anyone baptized and confirmed as a member of the true church of his day was baptized a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

Hi Lehi,

Perhaps we are getting lost in semantics and definitions here. Whenever the keys of the kingdom were upon the earth, individuals could be baptized with the proper authority into whatever the name of the "official" church of that moment was called; if, indeed there was an "official" name even given. For instance, ever since Jesus walked the earth, we have been in what is generally described as "the church period" - I don't know what the period was called before His arrival. As in Revelation, the different churches are even identified with individual names, beliefs, and problems within them. They existed at the time Paul received and recorded his Revelation and all, at the time the Revelation was received, held the keys of the kingdom; yet they were known by various names....not just one name. I believe they are also representative of types of churches today. I could go into even more detail and identify periods of time which mankind has traveled through which appear to indicate that each of those seven churches became the prevalent church within history. For instance, the time of the church described by John as the missionary church overlaps many denominations including, but not limited to, the LDS Church. Inasmuch as the the keys of the Kingdom have not always been upon the earth at various times througout the history of mankind, we must also accept the fact that there was not always an "official" church upon the earth. At the same time we see that there were several churches (as indicated through the Revelation) that there were several churches which officially held the keys to the kingdom.

Now, at times when the keys of the kingdom were NOT on the earth, which also appears to me to indicate that there was NO official church on the earth, I also take into consideration the teaching that there have always been ONLY two churches at ALL times on the earth. One is the Church of the Lamb of God, which obviously could not be considered an official church because the keys of the kingdom were not always on the earth according to your interpretation; and the other is the Church of the Devil. The Church of the Lamb of God is representative of the Good on the earth; the Church of the Devil is representative of the Evil on the earth. Both Good and Evil have been upon the earth continually regardless of whether the keys of the Kingdom were here; IOW Good and Evil have existed in ALL dispensations. It is my belief that whenever the keys of the kingdom WERE upon the face of the earth, that whoever held those keys (and, as we can see through Revelation, there were seven different churches named which held them at John's time) that these groups or churches (whatever you wish to call them, became the vehicles through with official ordinances performed could be accomplished with the proper power and authority.

I would offer that the names of the peoples who held these keys at various times were indeed known by various names and existed in different dispensations. We have the time of Adam through the flood, and from the flood (Noah) through the time of Abrahm (the first of the four Patriarchs) whom God covenanted with (though it was not until the third Patriarch, Judah, who was also named Israel, that there was finally a distinction made in God's eyes to describe the lineage through which Jesus would be born by the name of the House of Israel).

At the confounding of the languages (the tower of Babel), the people on the earth scattered; but we basically lose track of them as far as the Bible is concerned because the focus of the Bible narrows down to the eventual lineage of Jesus. Now, we are also taught that we do not have available to us the records of the lost tribes of Israel. I would suggest that in addition to the lost tribes of Israel, that God has managed to continue to guide and direct them in some way, as I have no reason to believe He would have changed His way of communicating and guiding His children, regardless of where they went. I would say the same thing about the Gentiles. It just seems out of character for God to suddenly stop communicating with His children once He started making a distinction with the House of Israel. This is why I believe that ALL world religions have some elements of Truth woven into them; why we see similarities in basic concepts even though they may be called something different. Thus, I do not think they are based on "myth" as many people choose to do; but rather they are based on variances of the Truth which had been handed to them through the tradition of their fathers, but have been interpreted or corrupted and become doctrine taught as the commandments of men.....just like the Pharisees did.

So, when I consider that both the Church of the Lamb of God as well as the Church of the Devil have always existed upon earth, I interpret the groups which have held the keys of the Kingdom (in a non-continuous unbroken line), as being the groups which became vehicles for God to accomplish ordinances with the proper power and authority....even though the proper power and authority has not always been on the earth.....but the Church of the Lamb of God HAS. In fact, I believe that there are non-believers (in either Father or in Christ) who are members of the Church of the Lamb of God based upon their good works since ALL good is of God, whether those individuals are aware of this or not. Hence, such teachings by Jesus that if they are not against us, they are for us, when responding to His Apostles who were concerned about individuals doing the same work as they were who were NOT members of Jesus' followers.

Throughout the history of the earth, we have had many cases where priests of authority have been on the earth, yet we know not how they obtained that authority. Some examples would be Noah and Melchizedek (Priest and King of Salem). John the Beloved may still be alive on the earth; he carries authority to Baptize, as well as the other Apostles who chose to live when Christ came to visit the Nephites. So there are at least four living Apostles who have held the keys and authority. In fact, due to this pattern, I have not reason to doubt that there are others who, throughout history, have received this same power and authority amongst those groups whose records we do not now have in our possession.

The most important point I am trying to make is that God has shown historically that there is always a path to Him and those individuals are able to have their ordinances performed by whomever holds the keys to the Kingdom when the keys are present - even though the individuals may already have passed on without having those ordinances completed. It is also very apparent to me, but maybe not so much to others (though I am not alone in my belief), that the Holy Ghost strives within all who have received His witness and who have chosen to allow Him to continue to dwell with them. Please note carefully that the ordination after baptism to "receive the Holy Ghost" - is an official ordinance. Others can have the compansionship and guidance of the Holy Ghost without going through this ordinance. If it were not so, then WHO was guiding Joseph Smith before the Melchizedek priesthood was restored upon the earth? Also, remember that scripture is incomplete! Not only do we know that many prescious teachings have been lost from the Bible, we also know that the Book of Mormon is only a snapshot of everything that was recorded by the BoM prophets and recorders. Additionally, we have been informed that we do not have in our possession the records of the other lost tribes. As I conjectured earlier, I believe that we also do not have the records of the Gentiles - but rather only a corrupted version of what all world religions may have received.

Truth is revealed ONLY through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost strives will ALL of mankind; not just within the LDS Church.

Respectfully, and with love,

jo

[LeSellers]

Reminds me of the NTSB finding in many aircraft accident reports that the fatal crash was the result of a failure to maintain sufficient altitude.

Now THAT is funny!

Your tax dollars at work.

Lehi

[Craig Paxton]

One of the good things that comes from membership in the church is a love of "Truth". We can debate what "Truth" is to the end of time...but I do know that many who make the very difficult decission to leave the church do so becasue they simple do not believe that the church is what it claims to be. In other words they come to the conclusion (and we can all debate that conclusion) that the church is not TRUE.

90% of those that join the church, leave the church...clearly the message isn't meeting the needs of even its newest members. It seems however that those that resign come from seasoned long term pioneer stock members who leave only after discovering information that does not set with what they believed the church to be.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[Scott Lloyd]

90% of those that join the church, leave the church.

CFR.

This seems extremely high. It strains credibility.

[Craig Paxton]

CFR.

This seems extremely high. It strains credibility.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645 ok sorry more like 70 to 80% loss...but in some countries..it is 90% loss

[HeatherAnn]

ok sorry more like 70 to 80% loss...but in some countries..it is 90% loss

I'm sure the inactivity among converts is higher than that of members born in the church.

"A BYU study said that of people born in the church, only 34% go inactive and stay inactive...

Despite increasing the member base and missionary force by 50% over the last decade,

the church has been unsuccessful at increasing the number of baptisms by even 1%.

When we look at the actual growth rate of the church from 1983 to 2000 there is strong

statistical evidence that the slowing growth is due to an underlying trend rather than

random fluctuations."

Link removed. Do not link to sites that contain temple content.

I believe that the church needs to make some changes to better meet peoples' spiritual needs.

I also believe very strongly that the church needs to better allocate tithing intended to God's will... which is #1 to love the many who are in such need for even basics... on this commandment to love, "hang all the laws & the prophets." - Matt 22:40

[Scott Lloyd]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645 ok sorry more like 70 to 80% loss...but in some countries..it is 90% loss

I see that the article says in some areas (namely Latin America and the Philippines, where the growth rate is high to start with) there is that much of a loss. But I don't see an indication of this being across the board. And nowhere in there do I see a citation of 90 percent.

It strikes me as inconsistent that, in a post where you profess a "love for truth" you would be recklessly throwing out a statistic made up out of thin air.

[Craig Paxton]

I see that the article says in some areas (namely Latin America and the Philippines, where the growth rate is high to start with) there is that much of a loss. But I don't see an indication of this being across the board. And nowhere in there do I see a citation of 90 percent.

It strikes me as inconsistent that, in a post where you profess a "love for truth" you would be recklessly throwing out a statistic made up out of thin air.

point taken...

Should I have said that a majority of those who join the church...either fall into inactivity, no longer consider themselves Mormon or just plain leave? Probably so...that would have been more factual...

here's some interesting information ...but I doubt you'll accept it as authoritative...

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2011/07/countries-of-world-by-estimated-member.html based on these numbers...world wide activity is around 30%...so about 70% of church members reject activity in the one true church.

[HeatherAnn]

...I'm unpersuaded that tithing is typically to blame for people going into debt. I think it has more to do with living beyond one's means or, in some cases, unfortunate circumstances such as catastrophic health care costs.

Let's put ourselves in the shoes of some who are struggling financially - not because of "living beyond one's means" but simply not enough to pay both bills AND tithing.

So... let's say that if someone doesn't pay tithing, they will be fine, living within their means, but if they pay tithing, they will be living beyond their means. Should they pay, then?

-If someone doesn't pay tithing, the mother will be able to tend the children instead of having both parents gone all day, putting them in day-orphanages. Should they pay then?

And if you believe, as I do, that the establishment and growth of the Church and Kingdom of God on earth is the best hope for mankind, then the payment of tithes is quite in line with such love.

I do NOT believe that the "establishment & growth of the church" is the best for mankind.

I believe that clean water, food & shelter is... only then we can talk about other needs.

If you & your family were starving, sick & essentially homeless, would you rather have a temple or mall built or food, clean water, medicine & shelter?

Edited November 15, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Sky]

Growth of the Church

Facts and Statistics

[HeatherAnn]

The church has the power & RESPONSIBILITY to more appropriately use the tithes donated by it's members - to love others who are in such desperate need.

Edited November 15, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[mfbukowski]

Your tax dollars at work.

Lehi

Now THAT is not funny at all!

But unfortunately true....