Concerns About People Falling From The Faith

[Deborah]

Now wait a second, why should we not think that information in the historical record about Joseph's activities with peep stones and attempts at treasure digging are not related to the later activities with the Book of Mormon?

They may be part of the history in preparing a young man to open his mind and heart to later visions but they still are not related to the actual events of finding the plates.

[Brade]

They may be part of the history in preparing a young man to open his mind and heart to later visions but they still are not related to the actual events of finding the plates.

What? So they may be part of Joseph's preparations to his acceptance of his divine manifestations (manifestations which led him to the Book of Mormon), but they are not related to the actual events of finding the plates? I see, just like my interest in philosophical questions as a child is not related to the actual events of me taking philosophy courses as a college student. Those interests may be part of the history of preparing me to take those classes, but they aren't related to the actual events of me sitting in those classes and formally studying the material. So, if somebody asked how it was that I came to study philosophy, and they wanted my answer to express reasons that were related to my taking of those classes, I should say things like, "oh, well, I got accepted to this university, and then I logged onto the student registration portal and selected several classes, and then I went to them."

So, on your view what we have is that facts about Joseph's openness to mystical experiences, openness to ancient buried artifacts and/or treasure and their discovery through mystical means, and use of rocks to get mystical and spiritual information are not related to his later claims to have had mystical experiences, found ancient buried artifacts and/or treasure through mystical means, and to have used rocks to get mystical and spiritual information. I see.

Again:

They may be part of the history in preparing a young man to open his mind and heart to later visions but they still are not related to the actual events of finding the plates.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Brade

[HeatherAnn]

The church is made up of imperfect people - so it's not perfect, but is still good in many ways...

Pros:

-It gives many people hope - for life after death

-It teaches personal revelation - after studying it out & praying, we can know for ourselves truth from God

-It gives hope for becoming Godlike someday... & teaches of life before & after this life - eternal progression

-It gets everyone involved & actively applying spirituality (loving others) in callings/"village" helps raise children

-Sense of community/social support

-Powerful & beautiful symbolism in church (sacrament), baptism, & temple & in SCRIPTURES (although some may take it literally)

-Service oriented

-High standards (no smoking, no drinking, dress modestly, be honest etc.)

-Family focus - "eternal families", Family Home Evening

Cons:

-Fear based - (which may help keep people "in line" but also may be limiting)

-Shame based "never good enough" - Utah (which is largely Mormon) leads nation in anti-depressant prescriptions

-Discourages independent spiritual interpretation, & thus hinders spiritual development

-Take things too literally & thus limits the essence of Christ's teaching - to search the kingdom of God within us - too much focus on rituals & not enough focus on what they point to or represent

-Tithing mispent... supposed to go mostly for poor (which there are plenty world-wide)

-Hides from faults & mistakes (even if it was historical so many years ago) - not a good example of repentance/honesty

-Cliquish & Self-Righteous (cultural) - sometimes members who choose to stop attending church are treated with disrespect, Disrespectful rule about temple wedding-1-year penalty wait time for couples who marry civily for nonmember family to be able to be present.

Edited November 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[california boy]

One Mormons attempt to help members understand better those that leave the church. What do you think? It is pro Mormon or Anti Mormon?

[thatjimguy]

In response to be idea that Utah is number one in antidepressants. I leave that got the idea that LDS do not drink alcohol. Using drugs with a doctors permission (and probably easily given) would seem to be the equal to going to the bar for a drink. Everyone wants to Escape the world and get that high. LDS that do this (that don't truly qualify for such medication) seem to follow the rule but not the spirit of it.

Now the reason I mentioned this is that it is said that people are taking anti depressants because of guilt. I do not think that is the case. I think they take them for the same reason the rest of the world drinks. To feel better about life for awhile.

[why me]

Zerinus:

I suggest you conduct a study, and then ask who is deceiving. Select 1000 non-members who are generally ignorant of LDS history and teachings. First show them the church-produced movie, "Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration" which can be seen here:

Then, take a survey and ask them to regurgitate a short summary of the salient history of the church, and question them about their impression of the LDS Church based upon what is in the movie.

Then hand them one of the books currently sold in Deseret Book, Rough Stone Rolling by LDS historian Richard Bushman, which book received the 2006 Best Book award from the Mormon History Association, and require all of them to read it from start to finish. Then conduct a new survey- ask them to summarize church history, and to explain how, if at all, their impression about the church has changed based upon what they now know. Then ask them whether they believe that the church-produced film is an accurate and honest representation of Joseph Smith's life.

I think you will find that most people would say the Church is not presenting a fair picture, and that it does this on purpose to promote faith. The god I believe in would not mislead like that.

I think that you have made a good point in your post. I saw this movie and wondered just how the lds church could make such a glossed over portrait of JS. However, what is interesting for me is your understanding that this movie was done to make JS's life more faith promoting. And I can also agree with you on this point too. But what I find strange is the fact that good facts were left out of the picture, especially with the nauvoo expositor. Most of the main points in JS's life can made into something faith promoting, including the polygamy. And so, why overlook these issues?

[why me]

Cons:

-Fear based - (which may help keep people "in line" but also may be limiting)

-Shame based "never good enough" - Utah (which is largely Mormon) leads nation in anti-depressant prescriptions

-Discourages independent spiritual interpretation, & thus hinders spiritual development

-Take things too literally & thus limits the essence of Christ's teaching - to search the kingdom of God within us - too much focus on rituals & not enough focus on what they point to or represent

-Tithing mispent... supposed to go mostly for poor (which there are plenty world-wide)

-Hides from faults & mistakes (even if it was historical so many years ago) - not a good example of repentance/honesty

-Cliquish & Self-Righteous (cultural) - sometimes members who choose to stop attending church are treated with disrespect, Disrespectful rule about temple wedding-1-year penalty wait time for couples who marry civily for nonmember family to be able to be present.

I am not sure if tithing is meant for the poor. I think that it is mainly meant for the running of the lds church on a world scale. The fast offering goes to the poor. Also, the lds church gives a lot of money to projects when help is needed during a disaster. Also, I don't see the fear based faith. What I do see is that if you make a mistake, you can repent. Nothing wrong with that message. And for more serious mistakes, a certain discipline may be in order. I don't think that it was that much different from Paul's time.

And who is never good enough? I don't see the stress on perfection but I do see a stress on becoming better if one is overcome with sin or sinful ways. I can agree though with the civil marriage part. However, if one knows that the church is true as the GA's do, I think that they would want people to marry in the temple as would heavenly father. Those who marry in the chapel may forget the bigger picture and avoid the temple marriage. And this wouldn't be good.

I can understand the self righteous part too. I think that some members lose the bigger picture when they exhibit this behavior. And JS was very much aware of his own unrighteousness and people did leave the church during his time because they could not accept JS's human qualities.

[why me]

One Mormons attempt to help members understand better those that leave the church. What do you think? It is pro Mormon or Anti Mormon?

Many members from way back when have the discourses of BY in their home library. However, I think that the internet and with critic imput on all this does have an impact. But back in the day, I don't remember anyone leaving the church because of what were in the discourses. I think that the critic spin on it all does have an impact on members. Unfortunately.

[why me]

I think you have just got the wrong end of the stick. The Church does not have a problem, and does not need your help to resolve it. Why is it so hard for the critics to understand that?

Actually, he does have a point about the movie. There could have been more detail. As I said, JS's life can be very faith promoting. No reason to overlook important facts about his life as the film does.

[why me]

I think it is rather insane to demand the Church present anything other than what it feels is the truth. Just because you think there is a different angle, does not obligate it to tell that angle.

There is a lot of insanity in the Ex/Anti-LDS world, methinks..

JMS

I had a similiar experience with the movie. It was too sweet and we all know that JS was not that sweet at times. He was a frontier man molded by his own experiences in New York when a young lad. And as he said, he was a rough stone rolling. In the movie, the stone was too smooth.

Edited November 14, 2011 by why me

[zerinus]

Actually, he does have a point about the movie. There could have been more detail. As I said, JS's life can be very faith promoting. No reason to overlook important facts about his life as the film does.

I disagree. I think the movie tells it about right. Nobody includes every detail when they tell a story to any audience. They adapt it for the occasion. If anybody is interested to know more, there are larger sources where they can refer to.

[toon]

For example, living the word of wisdom in our own minds tells us we are good followers of Christ, but some how doing our home teaching is the most difficult part of living the gospel. How is visiting others, carrying for their needs and providing a message of hope the most difficult thing many members do each month? Which act is closest to the message of Christ. Yet when we see someone breaking the WoW, what runs through our minds. Perhaps it is easier to follow dogma then it is living the gospel of Christ.

I think that makes me want to do home teaching more than any Elders Quorum "home teaching" lesson that I can recall. Afterwards, I can hang out on the hammock and sip that IPA in comfort.

[LeSellers]

performing these ordinances for the dead does not equate into the dead becoming members of the LDS Church.

Perhaps correct, but more than a little misleading.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is not necessarily The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as we know it today, but there is only one Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints that has existed from Adam to our own time. It has had various manifestations (we call them "dispensations") and may possibly have gone by other names throughout the millennia (e.g., Judaism), but in all time anyone baptized and confirmed as a member of the true church of his day was baptized a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

With that background, I'd invite you to go to the Temple on a Saturday morning and listen in the confirmation room as dozens or hundreds of youth stand as proxies for hundreds or thousands of dead and listen carefully to the words the officiator speaks.

Then, following the proper procedures, you may choose to go into the Celestial room and ask your husband to relate how a man whose death prevented his receiving the Priesthood during life does receive it and unto what office he is ordained.

Now, lest anyone reading this jump to the laughable, baseless conclusion (which I have seen on a number of occasions) that we "count" those proxy ordinances and the people for whom they are done as members of the Church every April, we do not. The number of such ordinances far exceeds that of the increase in membership, so on the most trivial grounds, this absurdity is refuted by the very fact of the reports.

In 2010, there were 272,814 converts baptized. There were millions of proxy baptisms in that same year. I have not been able to find, after a cursory search, the specific number, but I know that in the Denver Temple alone, I coordinated about two hundred fifty baptisms during a single session, 24 times a year. There are six such sessions, 48 times a year, at each of a hundred twenty or more temples. That's 4,320,000 proxy baptisms (and confirmations) or ~15

5

/

8

times as many proxy baptisms as convert baptisms for that year.

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

In response to be idea that Utah is number one in antidepressants. I leave that got the idea that LDS do not drink alcohol. Using drugs with a doctors permission (and probably easily given) would seem to be the equal to going to the bar for a drink. Everyone wants to Escape the world and get that high. LDS that do this (that don't truly qualify for such medication) seem to follow the rule but not the spirit of it.

Now the reason I mentioned this is that it is said that people are taking anti depressants because of guilt. I do not think that is the case. I think they take them for the same reason the rest of the world drinks. To feel better about life for awhile.

It's only natural to want to be happy - & to find a way to sooth ourselves when we're not happy, yet some methods of soothing ourselves contribute or hinder our ability to be happy in the long run (real joy).

Yes, we can't get in the minds of everyone to see why they take anti-depressants, so we're just guessing, based on our experiences & those we know. Alcohol & anti-depressants are just 2 of countless coping/escape strategies. IMO, they are the least healthy - covering up pain instead of DEALING with it. There are several possible reasons WHY they "want to feel BETTER about life for a while" implying a possible lack in one of the following areas:

1. Lack stress management skills - especially in dealing with thoughts that produce "depressing feelings."

2. Lack ability to say "NO" - so instead take on too much

3. Feel bad about themselves no matter how much they do (scriptures, prayer, temple, home/visiting teaching, fhe, food storage, genealogy, tithing, fast offering, humanitarian donation, several other church donations, magnifying callings, sharing the gospel with others, perfecting one's self, serving others, taking care of one's own family - children/parenting & marriage etc...) - maybe such concern is due to peer acceptance & seeing how others are negatively judged when they don't do this or that & how others are praised when they do do this or that.

4. Lack of physical health - due to lifestyle choices - diet, exercise, sleep

5. Lack of physical health - due to accident, illness etc.

6. Lack of physical health - for unknown reasons (which are often linked to thoughts that produce feelings that affect us physically)

7. Lack of social support (even if surrounded by people - if they're not supportive)

8. Lack of hope - major events that cause grief.

9. Lack of a sense of fulfilment/passion

10. Substance abuse...

Utah ranks 4th nationwide in overdose deaths

http://www.standard....overdose-deaths

Edited November 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

I am not sure if tithing is meant for the poor. I think that it is mainly meant for the running of the lds church on a world scale. The fast offering goes to the poor. Also, the lds church gives a lot of money to projects when help is needed during a disaster. Also, I don't see the fear based faith. What I do see is that if you make a mistake, you can repent. Nothing wrong with that message. And for more serious mistakes, a certain discipline may be in order. I don't think that it was that much different from Paul's time.

And who is never good enough? I don't see the stress on perfection but I do see a stress on becoming better if one is overcome with sin or sinful ways. I can agree though with the civil marriage part. However, if one knows that the church is true as the GA's do, I think that they would want people to marry in the temple as would heavenly father. Those who marry in the chapel may forget the bigger picture and avoid the temple marriage. And this wouldn't be good.

I can understand the self righteous part too. I think that some members lose the bigger picture when they exhibit this behavior. And JS was very much aware of his own unrighteousness and people did leave the church during his time because they could not accept JS's human qualities.

"At the end of 3 years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of think hand which thou doest." - Deut 14:28-29

"In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."

http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htm

We really don't know how much the church makes or spends or exactly how, although we know a lot is spent on real estate (like building a $3 billion mall/office/condo building in Salt Lake City). Because of the church public secrecy of finances, we don't know, but it's estimated that "The Mormon Church is spending less than 1% of its income to help the poor."

http://www.salamande...m/foyer/budget/

About fear-based motivation - I can only tell you what I've experienced being a member my entire life, & what I've witnessed of other members, including on this forum.

The 3 missions of the church:

1. Proclaim the gospel

2. Redeem the dead

3. Perfect the saints (This "perfect" needs to be reworded & there needs to be more compassion & slack, as beautifuly explained by Elder Uchtdorf last conference.)

The temple is not the end-all - it's a tool for spiritual development. Jesus didn't always go to the temple for spiritual experiences - which he had in many places, especially in nature. I still see the temple as symbolic for many spiritual ideals, yet I also see it as a way for the church to charge $ for membership. I also realize that there are many ways to resonate with "the kingdom of God within" us (Luke 17:21)... & that for some (like me) the lds temple inspires more negative than positive feelings.

Edited November 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Scott Lloyd]

I am not sure if tithing is meant for the poor. I think that it is mainly meant for the running of the lds church on a world scale. The fast offering goes to the poor.

why me is correct. Heather Ann's criticism in this regard is misguided. Tithing is intended to fund the operation, growth and ecclesiastical purposes of the Church, construction of meetinghouses and temples, funding of the missionary program, preservation of genealogical records, etc. The Church has never made any secret of this fact.

In addition to tithing, Church members have long been encouraged to pay a "generous" fast offering and to contribute to the worldwide humanitarian efforts of the Church. These are the funds that aid the poor and the needy.

[Scott Lloyd]

We really don't know how much the church makes or spends or exactly how, although we know a lot is spent on real estate (like building a $3 billion mall/office/condo building in Salt Lake City).

The president of the Church has stated that no tithing funds have been spent on the City Creek project.

[HeatherAnn]

The president of the Church has stated that no tithing funds have been spent on the City Creek project.

Then, where did the president of the church get the money, considering his income is supplied by the church?

[HeatherAnn]

why me is correct. Heather Ann's criticism in this regard is misguided. Tithing is intended to fund the operation, growth and ecclesiastical purposes of the Church, construction of meetinghouses and temples, funding of the missionary program, preservation of genealogical records, etc. The Church has never made any secret of this fact.

In addition to tithing, Church members have long been encouraged to pay a "generous" fast offering and to contribute to the worldwide humanitarian efforts of the Church. These are the funds that aid the poor and the needy.

So, you're saying that Deuteronomy scriptures are incorrect, & that it's better for tithing to be spent on real estate than feeding the poor, as instructed in that scripture, & which is desperately needed in many parts of the world??

The church doesn't disclose financial information - I went to the church office building & asked for a budget & was told that.

Edited November 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[LeSellers]

Then, where did the president of the church get the money, considering his income is supplied by the church?

When the Church "moved" to Deseret in 1847, Brigham Young, the President of the Church and of the High Priesthood, divided the land and other resources among the Saints and the Church. The Church had, at that time, much wealth that did not come from tithing or any other donations. Those resources have been wisely used and any proceeds scrupulously invested.

For instance, "Sugar House" (southeastern Salt Lake City) is so named because the Church sponsored and built a sugaring plant there. It never made money, but it did demonstrate that sugar beets were a profitable crop, and the U(tah) and I(daho) Sugar Company, which, until relatively recently, was largely owned by the Church, did make money and returned that investment. The profits from these ventures, like City Creek, are used for many things including "helping the poor and the needy" (you will note they are two, separate groups).

Any wise investment guide will tell you that you cannot take too much heat out of the fire, lest the fire go out. So it is and has been with the Church's investment properties: when there is a need for such monies (always), these investments provide what the Saints cannot (or do not) in Fast Offerings and other donations.

Lehi

Edited November 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[why me]

I disagree. I think the movie tells it about right. Nobody includes every detail when they tell a story to any audience. They adapt it for the occasion. If anybody is interested to know more, there are larger sources where they can refer to.

Here is the problem: if a member of the church views that film and that is all they know about the life of JS, they are heading for a fall when they read Rough Stone Rolling. I think that in many ways the makers of the movie got JS right. But the facts that have been omitted would create possible problems for people who would search the internet and read about his life.

[LeSellers]

So, you're saying that Deuteronomy scriptures are incorrect, & that it's better for tithing to be spent on real estate than feeding the poor, as instructed in that scripture, & which is desperately needed in many parts of the world??

The law of the third-year tithe was a part of the now-fulfilled Mosaic Law: it no longer applies. The Law of the Tithe predated Moses by thousands of years; Adam paid tithing. It is part of the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ. Moses' Law is not appropriate for our dispensation.

The law of the third-year tithe identifies those who would receive the proceeds: it was not people in "many parts of the world", it was only those in Israel who qualified. Our modern-day charity is far more broadly spent.

The Church, in spite of a great desire to help everyone in need, cannot do it all. The returns on investments, like Sugar House and City Creek, are a huge supplement to the Fast Offering we Saints do make, and provide much of the monies used for humanitarian purposes.

Were the Church to sell all she had and give it to the poor, it would last one or two years, if we only helped the poor in one smallish country. Those who were thus helped would still be poor and there would be little (if anything) left for us to share with them.

Things like the PEF (Perpetual Education Fund) and Bishop's Storehouses are far more valuable in the long term than cash. They create resilient people and endow them with self-reliance. Handouts create dependency, and all the evils that entails.

The church doesn't disclose financial information - I went to the church office building & asked for a budget & was told that.

This is correct, and wise. There are people who would use this kind of information for nefarious purposes. Why did you want it?

Lehi

Edited November 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[why me]

So, you're saying that Deuteronomy scriptures are incorrect, & that it's better for tithing to be spent on real estate than feeding the poor, as instructed in that scripture, & which is desperately needed in many parts of the world??

The church doesn't disclose financial information - I went to the church office building & asked for a budget & was told that.

I think that the lds church does much for the poor, especially for the poor and needy members of the lds church. But they also reach out to the greater communities especially in times of disasters and tragedies. The church investments in downtown salt lake provide jobs for many people. The Mall in particular. We can compare salt lake to detroit and see just where you would prefer to live. Or for that matter many cities in the usa that have been hit hard by the recession and job situation. Did you experience downtown salt lake in 1981 during the recession? Many problems and going out of business signs. Not good for any city. I think that it is in the church's interest to keep downtown salt lake vibrant.

[why me]

This is correct, and wise. There are people who would use this kind of information for nefarious purposes. Why did you want it?

Lehi

You are correct on that one. The critics would do a chubby checker and do a twist and shout. And it would matter not what the lds church was doing with the money. The lds church could never satisfy the critics when it comes to the money from investments.

[why me]

The president of the Church has stated that no tithing funds have been spent on the City Creek project.

It doesn't matter what the lds church says. People who wish to make hay will always try to make hay. Such facts go in one ear and out the other ear.