why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 You answered your own question... The church isn't... ...Otherwise they would be investing in the many people in need, not malls.To my understanding tithing money was not used for the mall. And I think that you know this too. I think that the mall was a good investment. First, it generates jobs for young people and for others. Second, it provides a place for people to shop and eat. Third, it creates a vibrant entity in the community. Fourth, it provides more income for other projects, such as helping the poor in developing countries. We need to understand that the lds church only has a few million tithe and fast offering paying members. How much income do these people provide for the lds church? Not much. And since many members are poor, they do not pay much in tithe.So I think that the mall was a good investment for church projects and for a vibrant community.
why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 Do you find putting me down to somebody else to be helpful in this discussion? I don't. It's called "ad hominem attacks" which are attempts to make another look bad instead of sticking with the subject matter.I have seen many complaints from postmormons and exmormons about tithing money and they usually follow your line of logic. It is flawed but still used to attack the lds church. Here is the subject matter: your video was a direct attack against the capitalist system. I agree with this video. To actually do something about the poor in the world, the fight is not with the lds church but with what naomi klein has termed 'Disaster Capitalism'. If you stick to the root cause of poverty in the world and understand the basic nature of capitalism which creates gross inequality in the world, you will go much further in helping the poor in the world. You provided the video that attacks capitalism. What role should the lds church play in this?Now it has been shown to you that the lds church does help the more unfortunate in the world through its church sponsored programs. But as long as we support a system that has created gross inequality, I am afraid the lds church no matter how much it does, will not solve the problem.If members fall away because of tithing money, I feel sorry for them because they lack an understanding just what the church does in the world.
why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 This is absolutely false.No other system on earth (with the possible exception of the 250 years among the righteous Nephites following Christ's appearance to them) has ever produced more real wealth and higher standards of living than capitalism. No form of communalism (Communism, socialism, not even the United Order) has benefited those living with it as well as has capitalism.LehiJoseph Smith was very much concerned with the gross inequality in american society when he was alive. And he attemped to do something about it. He said: .. I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. He was correct in his statement. The poverty in heather's video is proof of gross injustice. However, we can not get political on this thread because it will get closed. Many exmormons have been critical of tithing money. It is one of their mantras and they attempt to convince members that the church is greedy and unjust. They are wrong. No one goes hungry in the lds church. And it does have an out reach program for the greater community at large.
mfbukowski Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 I have seen many complaints from postmormons and exmormons about tithing money and they usually follow your line of logic. It is flawed but still used to attack the lds church. Here is the subject matter: your video was a direct attack against the capitalist system. I agree with this video. To actually do something about the poor in the world, the fight is not with the lds church but with what naomi klein has termed 'Disaster Capitalism'. If you stick to the root cause of poverty in the world and understand the basic nature of capitalism which creates gross inequality in the world, you will go much further in helping the poor in the world. You provided the video that attacks capitalism. What role should the lds church play in this?Now it has been shown to you that the lds church does help the more unfortunate in the world through its church sponsored programs. But as long as we support a system that has created gross inequality, I am afraid the lds church no matter how much it does, will not solve the problem.If members fall away because of tithing money, I feel sorry for them because they lack an understanding just what the church does in the world.Oh yeah. Look at all the prosperity in China under Mao and Russia under Stalin and now in North Korea. Those dang capitalists did nothing but cause America to be the poorest nation on earth.When the markets were freer than they are now in the 50's , all we saw was poverty everywhere. This nation really fell behind the communists during this period because of them dang capitalists.We clearly need to be more prosperous, like North Korea or them other socialist countries like Greece and Italy and France. Yessiree.And when China started becoming capitalistic- look at all the poverty it created there. Russia too- there was prosperity during Stalin, but now that they have brought in capitalism, there is nothing but poverty everywhere. There are no rich Russians now because of capitalism- only poverty everywhere.Same with them Poles. They were doing fine until they brought in capitalism- now look at them. Poorest country in Eastern Europe!Yessiree. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 However, we can not get political on this thread because it will get closed.And who brought it up?
LeSellers Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Joseph Smith was very much concerned with the gross inequality in american society when he was alive.CFRAnd he attemped to do something about it. He said: .. I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. He was correct in his statement. Yes, he was, but that is not an indictment against capitalism. It is an indictment against the lack of personal charity. Captialists are more likely to be (and much more capable of being) charitable than socialists.Socialism is far more capable of sharing misery than of prosperity because with socialism, there is much more misery than prosperity.The poverty in heather's video is proof of gross injustice. That poverty is not the result of capitalism. In most, if not all cases, it results from the government's misuse of resources and its denial of human rights, including economic rights.Capitalism creates wealth. It does not guarantee that this wealth will be distributed evenly (or what you mistakenly might call "justly"), but all who participate in capitalism benefit.Lehi Edited November 15, 2011 by LeSellers 1
why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) GardenGirl,The scripture in Deuteronomy is in compliance with the greatest commandment of all: to love God & love others as ourselves. As we love others (or don't love others), we love God (or don't love God). -Matt 25"...thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."-Deut 14:28-29I see no hungry widows, elderly, child, strangers in the lds church. I think that as a community, the lds church does wonders for their poor throughout the world. And what did Christ say about the poor person who gave a portion of her income?What do you think about these verses from luke 21?21 yJesus1 looked up and saw the rich zputting their gifts into athe offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two bsmall copper coins.2 3 And he said, “Truly, I tell you, cthis poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her dpoverty put in all eshe had to live on.”Why didn't Jesus tell the poor woman to keep her money? I think that the poor in the lds church who follow the actions of this poor woman will be blessed. What do you think? Edited November 15, 2011 by why me
why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 And who brought it up?Heather Ann with her youtube video.
why me Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Oh yeah. Look at all the prosperity in China under Mao and Russia under Stalin and now in North Korea. Those dang capitalists did nothing but cause America to be the poorest nation on earth.When the markets were freer than they are now in the 50's , all we saw was poverty everywhere. This nation really fell behind the communists during this period because of them dang capitalists.We clearly need to be more prosperous, like North Korea or them other socialist countries like Greece and Italy and France. Yessiree.And when China started becoming capitalistic- look at all the poverty it created there. Russia too- there was prosperity during Stalin, but now that they have brought in capitalism, there is nothing but poverty everywhere. There are no rich Russians now because of capitalism- only poverty everywhere.Same with them Poles. They were doing fine until they brought in capitalism- now look at them. Poorest country in Eastern Europe!Yessiree. You should read Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine. Besides I never mentioned communism. But if you look at heather ann's video, you will see gross poverty and it has gotten worse since 2008. Who is to blame for this poverty in the world and in the USA? JS and the early church attempted to do something about the poverty in the lds church with its members but the system failed as it did with the early christians at the time of peter and james.We need to remember that the lds church is a world wide church and it contains members with very differing viewpoints. I have known members who vote social democratic, green, conservative etc. It is not an american church anymore.You are one post away from thread closure if the politics continue. Edited November 15, 2011 by Minos
Craig Paxton Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) I have been on lds related internet boards since 2004 and I have been listening to critics saying that the church is losing more and more members. But I don't see it in reality. I only see growth. Are churches being closed? Are temples becoming dustbins?In some parts of the world the answer is Yes, churches are being closed and stakes disbanded...and as for your second question...the church will never allow its prized temples to become dustbins....they'd tear them down first. Edited November 15, 2011 by Craig Paxton
HeatherAnn Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 I see no hungry widows, elderly, child, strangers in the lds church.1. You don't see much.2. Love is not supposed to be limited to just those who have membership in the LDS church.And what did Christ say about the poor person who gave a portion of her income?What do you think about these verses from luke 21?21 yJesus1 looked up and saw the rich zputting their gifts into athe offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two bsmall copper coins.2 3 And he said, “Truly, I tell you, cthis poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her dpoverty put in all eshe had to live on.”Why didn't Jesus tell the poor woman to keep her money? I think that the poor in the lds church who follow the actions of this poor woman will be blessed. What do you think?That is a very good scripture & I'm glad you brought it up. What matters most is what is in our hearts... our intent... "...the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." -1Sam 16:7The widow cast in very little, but a huge percentage of what she had (which was next to nothing).Many members give not only 10% of their gross salary, but also fast offerings, ward missionary fund, general missionary fund, Book of Mormon fund, Humanitarian Aid fund, Temple Construction fund, Perpetual education fund, & "Others" - as listed on the "Tithing and Other Offerings" slips. Many lds members also give extensively of their time, energy & talents for free to the running of the church - some callings are so extensive they are like a full-time job (ie bishop, Stake President, missionary service etc.). I believe most members give of their finances, time energy & talents because their heart is good - they want to please God, to love others as themselves. The church receives a lot - what does it give back to help the suffering children of Heavenly Father & Mother, as Jesus commanded was the most important priority? How much MORE would the church give to help those in need, if it followed the lesson of the widow's mite? How many lives could be saved, how much more love could be expressed & felt?Why didn't Jesus tell the church to keep its money? I think that the leaders in the lds church who follow the actions of this poor woman will be blessed. What do you think?
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) 1. You don't see much.2. Love is not supposed to be limited to just those who have membership in the LDS church.I see a lot. And you are right. Love is not limited to just members in the lds church and it isn't. I have seen bishops give money from their own pocket to help a needy nonmember family in their wards. And when it comes to helping the poor, all churches can do more, if they can do more and so should we all. The lds church does wonderful things in the greater community...now it is recognized? Perhaps not. Is it publicized? Perhaps not. But where help is given, it is appreciated. Edited November 16, 2011 by why me
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 1. You don't see much.2. Love is not supposed to be limited to just those who have membership in the LDS church.That is a very good scripture & I'm glad you brought it up. What matters most is what is in our hearts... our intent... "...the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." -1Sam 16:7The widow cast in very little, but a huge percentage of what she had (which was next to nothing).Many members give not only 10% of their gross salary, but also fast offerings, ward missionary fund, general missionary fund, Book of Mormon fund, Humanitarian Aid fund, Temple Construction fund, Perpetual education fund, & "Others" - as listed on the "Tithing and Other Offerings" slips. Many lds members also give extensively of their time, energy & talents for free to the running of the church - some callings are so extensive they are like a full-time job (ie bishop, Stake President, missionary service etc.). I believe most members give of their finances, time energy & talents because their heart is good - they want to please God, to love others as themselves.Quite often I have seen exmormons and postmormons complain about the church accepting tithings from poor members. The verse shows that tithing is basically for everyone, even the poor. Jesus did not stop the poor woman from giving her substance. Just the opposite. He called her blessed. And exmormons and postmormons need to think about this scripture.Most practicing members believe that their money is well spent. It is only when people leave the church do they begin to jump on this issue to enforce their reasons for leaving. No one is forced to pay tithing. And no one is forced to go to the temple. I am proof of this.
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 In some parts of the world the answer is Yes, churches are being closed and stakes disbanded...and as for your second question...the church will never allow its prized temples to become dustbins....they'd tear them down first.I also know that there is a movement into cities for jobs. The more rural areas lose members because because move in search of work or their children move in search of work. In many parts of the world, the countryside can be a poor place. We always need to look at the movement of people and demographics and how the search to make a living has an impact on local communities. It is not only church membership that suffers is such areas.
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Why didn't Jesus tell the church to keep its money? I think that the leaders in the lds church who follow the actions of this poor woman will be blessed. What do you think?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS_Humanitarian_ServicesMaybe you can add to the wiki.
Avatar4321 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Maybe the same reason why I compare prices when I shop, or why I budget, or why I vote for certain things... to see that money is spent wisely, not foolishly.If I'm going to spend 1/10 of my income...which if I made $50,000 a year, I'd pay $5,000/year to the LDS church for tithing (not humanitarian or fast offerings to help the poor - just tithing to be used in other ways)...And if my income continued 70 years of my life... that would be $350,000.To not question where that money (& many other's "donations") are being spent is financially & even spiritually & socially irresponsible.Why would I NOT ask?Because it's not your money, it's the Lord's? 3
Avatar4321 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 To my understanding tithing money was not used for the mall. And I think that you know this too. I think that the mall was a good investment. First, it generates jobs for young people and for others. Second, it provides a place for people to shop and eat. Third, it creates a vibrant entity in the community. Fourth, it provides more income for other projects, such as helping the poor in developing countries. We need to understand that the lds church only has a few million tithe and fast offering paying members. How much income do these people provide for the lds church? Not much. And since many members are poor, they do not pay much in tithe.So I think that the mall was a good investment for church projects and for a vibrant community.It certainly puzzles me how providing people with jobs and business opportunities hurts the poor. Quite the opposite. 3
HeatherAnn Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Because it's not your money, it's the Lord's?Who is God? "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25Many LDS members hand over a lot of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use it for God's will - yet, instead they build up malls... and many other business endeavors.Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htmAs a result of LDS church leaders mispending sacred tithes, many people suffer, when it's GOD's intention for them to be helped. Edited November 16, 2011 by HeatherAnn
HeatherAnn Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) ...Most practicing members believe that their money is well spent. It is only when people leave the church do they begin to jump on this issue to enforce their reasons for leaving...How do members know if their money donated & intended to be tithing for GOoD is well spent or not, considering the church hides it's finances & has it's hand in so many business endeavors?I've been concerned with the way the church spends money for many years - & I am still an active, callings-holding member of the church. Edited November 16, 2011 by HeatherAnn
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Who is God? "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25Many LDS members hand over a lot of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use it for God's will - yet, instead they build up malls... and many other business endeavors.Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may belss thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29As a result of LDS church leaders mispending sacred tithes, many people suffer, when it's GOD's intention for them to be helped.Yes, I agree. The lds church should close all these institutions down and give all the money to the two or three billion poor people in the world. That should solve the problem of poverty. Now of course, the lds church needs to find jobs for all the people affected by the closure so that they also don't become poor. And then, we can begin to close down most of the church buildings since people can meet over someone's home. And the money from the church sellings can also go to the poor. And when the lds church has disinvested itself of all holdings, and has no money left to help the new poor and the established poor, what then? Well, the people meeting in homes can collect ten percent of their income and give it to their favorite charity.You do understand that we are now living in a different time frame than the bible of the old testament right? Edited November 16, 2011 by why me 2
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) How do members know if their money donated & intended to be tithing for GOoD is well spent or not, considering the church hides it's finances & has it's hand in so many business endeavors?I've been concerned with the way the church spends money for many years - & I am still an active, callings-holding member of the church.And are you warm in church in the winter? If so, the money is well spent. And is the building in good condition? If so, the money is well spent. Let me give you an example: a couple of years ago a church building was burnt down by a local youth. The youth was caught. Now the law stated that the youth would have to pay the bill for the cost of the new building which would have meant that the youth would have his salary docked for his entire life. What did the church do? They forgave the youth, had him pay nothing and a wonderful new and larger building was built to serve the stake. Now wasn't that nice? Where did the money come from? And the church does not have insurance on its chapels.Here is a fact: we live in a business world. And the lds church needs to invest wisely to make money so the lds church can continue to grow and oblige the millions of members and the poor of the world. It can not be done on the tithes of 6 million or so members. If the church is successful in its investments, it just may mean that god is on the church's side, guiding His money for wonderful purposes.And the former mormons who left the lds church may need to understand this concept. Edited November 16, 2011 by why me
jskains Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 Ugh, the Church building a "Mall" to improve downtown did not come from Tithing. How many times does this have to be addressed? It's like the constant comment that the Church spent "millions" on Prop 8....People don't research. I think people mostly just repeat.
jskains Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 HeatherAnn, if you don't believe the Church is true, and you do not trust it, why do you donate to it? I believe it is run by God, so I trust it, so I donate to it. I see every day the things my tithing goes to, and I am pleased with it.It's either run by God or it isn't. Which is it?
why me Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Ugh, the Church building a "Mall" to improve downtown did not come from Tithing. How many times does this have to be addressed? It's like the constant comment that the Church spent "millions" on Prop 8....People don't research. I think people mostly just repeat.I have told this to her. But...I don't think that she wants to listen. The mall has provided people with good employment, especially the youth. And by doing this, the youth can be kept out of trouble and people will not need to collect a welfare check. And downtown can be vibrant with a working population. And another detroit can be avoided. I do believe that downtown detroit would love for a church to invest in a mall that would provide jobs for the local community and help the poor. But I could be wrong.
HeatherAnn Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Jskains,It doesn't matter if somebody donated a million dollars to the church by putting it in "Book of Mormon" section on the donation slip.What matters is that the church should be anxiously engaged in doing God's will - not their own.My husband donates tithing, & although I spend many years paying tithing, I now donate in other ways.It's not an "either God or not" black-&-white scenerio. It never is & if you keep thinking that way, when you stumble on some troubling info, you'll decide the church is all bad... instead of both good & bad. Edited November 16, 2011 by HeatherAnn
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