Recording A Barely 9 Year-Old Baptism In Mls As A C.O.R

[rongo]

I have a boy in my ward who turns nine on Thursday. I interviewed him for baptism a year ago, and have twice brought up the need to have him baptized to his mother over the last year. Stake baptism day is Saturday, and that is the only day children of record may be baptized in my stake, no exceptions, worlds without end. I would like to re-interview him and have him baptized on Saturday, but he will technically be nine years old by two days.

There are extenuating circumstances: his father is an abusive alcoholic who causes scenes and flies off the handle (he's not all there). He's also quasi-apostate. The mother and father are married, but the father lives in a shed in the back of the property out of the kindness of the mother's heart (he's a wretch who can't take care of himself). The mother purposely keeps the kids away from their father for the most part.

Normally, a nine year-old who is baptized is a convert baptism and must be taught the discussions. In this case, I agree with the mother that it would be best not to involve them. They live in abject poverty, living solely off of the sale of eggs from her numerous hens and welfare. My interactions with the father indicate to me that it would be extremely disruptive and ugly to have the missionaries teach the boy at their house, because of the father (he's intimately aware of visitors). The mother and the three children attend church regularly, and there are no concerns from a readiness/understanding of the covenant standpoint.

My question, for the forum, is whether anyone knows if we will have trouble recording a child of record baptism in MLS if the child is technically nine? In other words, will MLS not let us record it?

A second question I'm chewing on is whether there is a jurisdictio nproblem with keys over the baptism (must it be through the missionaries with the child being nine, because it is then under the mission president instead of the bishop/stake president)?

Very interested in people's experiences, insights, observations, etc.! Thanks in advance.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have a boy in my ward who turns nine on Thursday. I interviewed him for baptism a year ago, and have twice brought up the need to have him baptized to his mother over the last year. Stake baptism day is Saturday, and that is the only day children of record may be baptized in my stake, no exceptions, worlds without end. I would like to re-interview him and have him baptized on Saturday, but he will technically be nine years old by two days.

There are extenuating circumstances: his father is an abusive alcoholic who causes scenes and flies off the handle (he's not all there). He's also quasi-apostate. The mother and father are married, but the father lives in a shed in the back of the property out of the kindness of the mother's heart (he's a wretch who can't take care of himself). The mother purposely keeps the kids away from their father for the most part.

Normally, a nine year-old who is baptized is a convert baptism and must be taught the discussions. In this case, I agree with the mother that it would be best not to involve them. They live in abject poverty, living solely off of the sale of eggs from her numerous hens and welfare. My interactions with the father indicate to me that it would be extremely disruptive and ugly to have the missionaries teach the boy at their house, because of the father (he's intimately aware of visitors). The mother and the three children attend church regularly, and there are no concerns from a readiness/understanding of the covenant standpoint.

My question, for the forum, is whether anyone knows if we will have trouble recording a child of record baptism in MLS if the child is technically nine? In other words, will MLS not let us record it?

A second question I'm chewing on is whether there is a jurisdictio nproblem with keys over the baptism (must it be through the missionaries with the child being nine, because it is then under the mission president instead of the bishop/stake president)?

Very interested in people's experiences, insights, observations, etc.! Thanks in advance.

I have not nor will I ever envy the calling of a Bishop. OH MY!

[Calm]

You can always have the missionary lessons at church when they would normally be there so as to not be disruptive to the family, but I would think that such could be waved in this situation if you are satisfied with his knowledge and commitment. I would ask the question at the ldstech site about the mls if you don't get an answer soon here.

[altersteve]

I have no experience with this kind of situation, but I'll definitely be praying for the boy and his family.

[rongo]

You can always have the missionary lessons at church when they would normally be there so as to not be disruptive to the family, but I would think that such could be waved in this situation if you are satisfied with his knowledge and commitment. I would ask the question at the ldstech site about the mls if you don't get an answer soon here.

Having them have the lessons at the church occurred to me, but it would be best (in the interest of the mother's well-being) not to if we don't have to. We live near them, and we're in the rural unincorporated county land, as opposed to the 99% of the ward in the city. She has to be extremely frugal with gasoline (Sunday church is one of the few trips into town she is able to do during the week), and staying with her passel of kids for the lessons would be stressful for her (they're a handful, and she's self-conscious about their behavior ----- and, our ward is sandwiched between two other wards with overlap, so space for lessons is limited).

That's good to know about the tech site. Do you have a complete URL? Is it ldstech.org?

Thanks!

[Calm]

Is there a reason why the son couldn't have private instruction? Perhaps even with a few classmates that were interested or if his Primary class isn't too big, have the missionaries teach it for the time required?

http://tech.lds.org/

[ERayR]

I have a boy in my ward who turns nine on Thursday. I interviewed him for baptism a year ago, and have twice brought up the need to have him baptized to his mother over the last year. Stake baptism day is Saturday, and that is the only day children of record may be baptized in my stake, no exceptions, worlds without end. I would like to re-interview him and have him baptized on Saturday, but he will technically be nine years old by two days.

There are extenuating circumstances: his father is an abusive alcoholic who causes scenes and flies off the handle (he's not all there). He's also quasi-apostate. The mother and father are married, but the father lives in a shed in the back of the property out of the kindness of the mother's heart (he's a wretch who can't take care of himself). The mother purposely keeps the kids away from their father for the most part.

Normally, a nine year-old who is baptized is a convert baptism and must be taught the discussions. In this case, I agree with the mother that it would be best not to involve them. They live in abject poverty, living solely off of the sale of eggs from her numerous hens and welfare. My interactions with the father indicate to me that it would be extremely disruptive and ugly to have the missionaries teach the boy at their house, because of the father (he's intimately aware of visitors). The mother and the three children attend church regularly, and there are no concerns from a readiness/understanding of the covenant standpoint.

My question, for the forum, is whether anyone knows if we will have trouble recording a child of record baptism in MLS if the child is technically nine? In other words, will MLS not let us record it?

A second question I'm chewing on is whether there is a jurisdictio nproblem with keys over the baptism (must it be through the missionaries with the child being nine, because it is then under the mission president instead of the bishop/stake president)?

Very interested in people's experiences, insights, observations, etc.! Thanks in advance.

I believe the MLS software may give you some problems in recording it but there should be some way to get around that.

[rongo]

Mainly, she's embarassed that she let it get to this point. Her parents are very active, and she doesn't want to have to have her son be a convert baptism. Given her psyche and everythings she's been through and deals with, this is one source of stress and worry I'd like to take off her plate. While I have reminded her twice over the last year, we would just miss him being 8 by two days.

Believe me, if I could just go baptize him in the church before Thursday, I would, but the stake presidency would go ballistic (long story there ----- this has come up as well).

[ERayR]

Having them have the lessons at the church occurred to me, but it would be best (in the interest of the mother's well-being) not to if we don't have to. We live near them, and we're in the rural unincorporated county land, as opposed to the 99% of the ward in the city. She has to be extremely frugal with gasoline (Sunday church is one of the few trips into town she is able to do during the week), and staying with her passel of kids for the lessons would be stressful for her (they're a handful, and she's self-conscious about their behavior ----- and, our ward is sandwiched between two other wards with overlap, so space for lessons is limited).

That's good to know about the tech site. Do you have a complete URL? Is it ldstech.org?

Thanks!

Buying gasoline for her for this seems to me a legitimate use of fast offering funds.

[ERayR]

Mainly, she's embarassed that she let it get to this point. Her parents are very active, and she doesn't want to have to have her son be a convert baptism. Given her psyche and everythings she's been through and deals with, this is one source of stress and worry I'd like to take off her plate. While I have reminded her twice over the last year, we would just miss him being 8 by two days.

Believe me, if I could just go baptize him in the church before Thursday, I would, but the stake presidency would go ballistic (long story there ----- this has come up as well).

It appears that she is worrying about the wrong things. Perhaps a little counsel for her and do it right.

[Calm]

Mainly, she's embarassed that she let it get to this point. Her parents are very active, and she doesn't want to have to have her son be a convert baptism. Given her psyche and everythings she's been through and deals with, this is one source of stress and worry I'd like to take off her plate. While I have reminded her twice over the last year, we would just miss him being 8 by two days.

Believe me, if I could just go baptize him in the church before Thursday, I would, but the stake presidency would go ballistic (long story there ----- this has come up as well).

Good luck, hard to deal with so many personalities.

[Calm]

It appears that she is worrying about the wrong things. Perhaps a little counsel for her and do it right.

Sometimes one needs to worry about the little things in order to not be overwhelmed by the big things. Doesn't always make sense, but we each cope in our own ways.

She should be praised for keeping her family going and going to church under difficult pressures, not sure counseling her on this specific issue would help remove pressure or make it worse, rongo is on the best position to know, of course.

I think it is likely hard on her when she compares her current family status to the one she dreamed or planned for...it is possible that this is one of the few ideals (children baptized as children of record) that she has been able to believe she could still manage so its importance has become inflated in her mind, but sometimes when one has so little, little things become very, very important and meaningful and it seems a shame to deprive someone of such if one can avoid it.

Edited November 8, 2011 by calmoriah

[rongo]

Buying gasoline for her for this seems to me a legitimate use of fast offering funds.

She's amazing. She has *never* come to the church for any help, although she merits it more than those who do. There's a real danger of hurting her feelings if I was to offer something like that (it would make it obvious that others are mindful of her situation). My wife and I have thought about buying her some dresses and things for Christmas, but worry that that would also hurt her pride in a bad way (she only owns two very old dresses).

She is a paragon of self-reliance in working with what she has. She taught a bread-making lesson for a Relief Society Meeting, and she has a real knack for that. Her pumpernickel is wonderful, and she developed a recipe that substitutes cocoa for coffee in it.

[ERayR]

Sometimes one needs to worry about the little things in order to not be overwhelmed by the big things. Doesn't always make sense, but we each cope in our own ways.

She should be praised for keeping her family going and going to church under difficult pressures, not sure counseling her on this specific issue would help remove pressure or make it worse, rongo is on the best position to know, of course.

Agreed, I am well aware of that condition but some sincere and kind counsel a time or two has helped me to move beyond and grow.

[Calm]

What about working out some bartering with her? Or maybe if she is good at bread making, could she add this to her egg selling?....if there is some way to work around legal requirements?

[ERayR]

She's amazing. She has *never* come to the church for any help, although she merits it more than those who do. There's a real danger of hurting her feelings if I was to offer something like that (it would make it obvious that others are mindful of her situation). My wife and I have thought about buying her some dresses and things for Christmas, but worry that that would also hurt her pride in a bad way (she only owns two very old dresses).

She is a paragon of self-reliance in working with what she has. She taught a bread-making lesson for a Relief Society Meeting, and she has a real knack for that. Her pumpernickel is wonderful, and she developed a recipe that substitutes cocoa for coffee in it.

I understand that completely having been there a time or two. Some gentle and wise counsel from a loveing Bishop helped me to see beyond myself and my pride. President Monson did counsel to seek out the needy a couple of conferences ago.

Perhaps if some opportunities were opened to let her do service for service she would be more receptive. Perhaps have her familyclean the chapel and provide gasoline for them to travel to do it. A tankful when she drives to do service.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The LDS Church really gets into such minutia?

[Senator]

Believe me, if I could just go baptize him in the church before Thursday, I would, but the stake presidency would go ballistic (long story there ----- this has come up as well).

This strikes me as the best solution.........and the most adventurous!!

I like fireworks!

[BCSpace]

The LDS Church really gets into such minutia?

Sure, and why not? We want to differentiate between new convert and those being baptised by 8 years old as per the commandment. Since various circumstances arise, one has to find out were to draw the line.

[LeSellers]

The LDS Church really gets into such minutia?

Well, the Lord told us to. As BCSpace reminds us, the commandment is that parents teach their children to be baptized at the age of eight.

If the children are not baptized a that age, there are two possible reasons: the child rebelled or the parents failed to teach him correctly. In the former case, it's the child (now accountable) who is at fault. If it's the parents, they will have this sin (specified as such) charged to their account.

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. 26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized. 27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands. 28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

In no case is the Church held responsible, although the Primary Organization gives as much assistance as possible to help the parents meet their obligation. That's why it's called an "auxiliary": it's auxiliary to the family.

Lehi

[Robert F. Smith]

She's amazing. She has *never* come to the church for any help, although she merits it more than those who do. There's a real danger of hurting her feelings if I was to offer something like that (it would make it obvious that others are mindful of her situation). My wife and I have thought about buying her some dresses and things for Christmas, but worry that that would also hurt her pride in a bad way (she only owns two very old dresses).

She is a paragon of self-reliance in working with what she has. She taught a bread-making lesson for a Relief Society Meeting, and she has a real knack for that. Her pumpernickel is wonderful, and she developed a recipe that substitutes cocoa for coffee in it.

All the strict constructionism of regulations seems so unnecessary in this case. Get together with your ward clerk and have him send a message to MLS, requesting the attention of a supervisor. Or speak directly with MLS personnel on their 800 number. There should be room for a bishop's discretion. If not, at least you'll know for certain what has to be done.

[LeSellers]

She has *never* come to the church for any help, although she merits it more than those who do. There's a real danger of hurting her feelings if I was to offer something like that (it would make it obvious that others are mindful of her situation). My wife and I have thought about buying her some dresses and things for Christmas, but worry that that would also hurt her pride in a bad way (she only owns two very old dresses).

It might be time for her to have an interview with the bishop. This interview would consist of the bishop's telling her that she is being very selfish by not allowing others to receive the blessings that would come to them if she would allow them to help her.

For everyone who gives, there must be someone to receive. Both are blessed, but she seems determined to deny blessings to others. How selfish is that?

Lehi

[ERayR]

It might be time for her to have an interview with the bishop. This interview would consist of the bishop's telling her that she is being very selfish by not allowing others to receive the blessings that would come to them if she would allow them to help her.

For everyone who gives, there must be someone to receive. Both are blessed, but she seems determined to deny blessings to others. How selfish is that?

Lehi

Lehi having been there I will tell you it is not selfishness. It is a disire to teach her family to stand in tough times. I salute her for that.

[LeSellers]

Lehi having been there I will tell you it is not selfishness. It is a disire to teach her family to stand in tough times. I salute her for that.

We may salute her for one thing while recognizing that she is doing a good thing at the cost of doing a better thing.

She is denying others the privilege of helping her. We, as Saints, made covenants, at baptism and later, to help each other. See Alma's "baptism talk" in Mosiah, and a dozen other places in scripture, not to mention in holier places still.

Pride precedes all sins, and, while sloth and greed are as prevalent among the poor and the needy as frequently as among the rich and comfortable, it is not the wealthy whose pride stands in the way of others' fulfilling their covenants. The proud poor are no less to be blamed than the proud rich, and, in cases like this one, where those who depend on them are denied opportunities (the son, e.g., who cannot receiver baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost), perhaps the more so.

It would take, beyond any doubt, a compassionate teacher to make this point, and do it in a way that will not weaken her faith. But I believe it should be done.

Now, one wonders what the father, whose permission for his son to be baptized at all, as a Child of Record or as a Convert, is necessary, will say when asked about it. The OP does not give us any indication that he would be willing to allow it, or, on the other hand, that he would not. This may all be moot.

Lehi

Edited November 8, 2011 by LeSellers

[Calm]

If a parent is judged incompetent, is one required to have his/her permission? What about if one parent has full custody?

Don't know if either applies in this case, though it seems likely.

Edited November 8, 2011 by calmoriah