The Church Of The Lamb Of God And The Church Of The Devil

[Sky]

1^st Nephi 14: 10-11:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

What are everybody’s interpretations of these scriptures? Which church is the Church of the devil? Which church is the Church of the Lamb of God? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the church of the Lamb of God, does that mean all other churches are part of the church of the devil? I personally don’t interpret it that rigidly, and I don’t think most LDS do either. Does the LDS Church have a position? It seems to me that the LDS Church tries to be diplomatic in its relations with other churches, and acknowledges that other faiths have some of the truth. How do we reconcile that with this scripture?

[ldsfaqs]

LDS have always believed and interpreted it according to it's intended context. That is it's describing good and evil, not an actual "Church".

Further, another scripture makes the proper interpretation absolutely clear.

"Contend against NO CHURCH, save the Church of the Devil".

This verse makes clear that we are to contend against evil, not any particular Church, and also that the Church of the Devil is actually referring to the evil in the world, not an actual Church.

Anti-mormons like to quote Orson Pratt and McConkies first edition of Mormon doctrine to try and bear false witness saying mormon doctrine is that we believe all other religions are the Church of the Devil, but by doing that they ignore the traditional understanding, and they also ignore the fact that Pratt was censured for some of his views including this one, and also that the Church made McConkie remove that statement from his first edition, that it was false, and he did.

While it is true that in some respects other religions can be said to be "part" of the Church of the devil in whatever degree they teach false doctrine, it is also true that a mormon could be a part of the Church of the Devil for teaching some falsehood. But, these things are far different from saying a particular "Church" is of the Church of the Devil or of the Lamb. However, to be accurate, in also another context the Restored Church can be said to be the Church of the Lamb as well. But again, context is everything...... The actual context of the verse in question is speaking of the ideas of good and evil, not any actual "Church".

All of this is not surprising, other Christians and anti-mormons interpret many Biblical passages in a literal manner rather than paying attention to the context and thus have created many false doctrines, and pervert many doctrines, and they also pervert this verse interpreting it literally, thus applying THEIR OWN perverted interpretation skills on us, when their view is not our view and interpretation.

[altersteve]

The church of the devil is any organization that opposes the Church of Jesus Christ. It doesn't refer to any non-LDS religion. Basically, the Church of Jesus Christ is truth, and the church of the devil is lies, as ldsfaqs said.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Intentionality. People of all faiths, if they are doing good insofar as they understand it, are part of the Church of God. Merely being a nominal member of the Church of the Lamb isn't going to save us, and if a Hindu or a Muslim or a Jew or a Buddhist is more righteous than we are, then they are that much closer to the glory of God. We have been given the Restored Authority to offer saving ordinances which will bind us together into a unified whole if we all accept them by taking part in the same ritual story reenacted in our Temples, but we certainly have no monopoly on truth or righteousness.

Some good stuff from Joseph Smith:

"It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine."

"We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up."

“We ought always to be aware of those prejudices which sometimes so strangely present themselves, and are so congenial to human nature, against our friends, neighbors, and brethren of the world, who choose to differ from us in opinion and in matters of faith. Our religion is between us and our God. Their religion is between them and their God. There is a love from God that should be exercised toward those of our faith, who walk uprightly, which is peculiar to itself, but it is without prejudice; it also gives scope to the mind, which enables us to conduct ourselves with greater liberality towards all that are not of our faith, than what they exercise towards one another.”

"While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes 'His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.' He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, 'according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,' or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India.

He will judge them, 'not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,' those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right."

Edited October 20, 2011 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Cobalt-70]

1^st Nephi 14: 10-11:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

What are everybody’s interpretations of these scriptures? Which church is the Church of the devil? Which church is the Church of the Lamb of God? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the church of the Lamb of God, does that mean all other churches are part of the church of the devil? I personally don’t interpret it that rigidly, and I don’t think most LDS do either. Does the LDS Church have a position? It seems to me that the LDS Church tries to be diplomatic in its relations with other churches, and acknowledges that other faiths have some of the truth. How do we reconcile that with this scripture?

This was written in the very early days of Mormonism, when the Joseph Smith was nonsectarian, and in fact anti-sectarian. Smith had not yet intended to form his own formal church organization. Rather, the "marvelous work" he was accomplishing was a reformation of religious thought that was to transcend denominations. The "church of Christ" was not actually a denomination, but a more abstract body of followers. For clergy to be considered part of this church of Christ, they had to:

--"cry nothing but repentance";

--support themselves rather than receiving money from their followers;

--call themselves by the name of Christ; and

--receive charismatic authority, not from a denomination, but directly through revelation.

The passage in 1 Nephi did not mean that Mormonism is the only true faith, because there was no Mormon church at the time, and the very idea of a "Mormon denomination" would have been antithetical to Smith's anti-sectarian beliefs.

[altersteve]

This was written in the very early days of Mormonism, when the Joseph Smith was nonsectarian, and in fact anti-sectarian. Smith had not yet intended to form his own formal church organization. Rather, the "marvelous work" he was accomplishing was a reformation of religious thought that was to transcend denominations. The "church of Christ" was not actually a denomination, but a more abstract body of followers. For clergy to be considered part of this church of Christ, they had to:

--"cry nothing but repentance";

--support themselves rather than receiving money from their followers;

--call themselves by the name of Christ; and

--receive charismatic authority, not from a denomination, but directly through revelation.

The passage in 1 Nephi did not mean that Mormonism is the only true faith, because there was no Mormon church at the time, and the very idea of a "Mormon denomination" would have been antithetical to Smith's anti-sectarian beliefs.

You mean Christ's own formal church organization. Yes, I know that's nitpicky, but it's a nit that should be picked.

Edited October 20, 2011 by altersteve

[jo1952]

It is not the religious institution which a person belongs to; thus, the religion of his/her choice does not constitute whether they are a "member" of the Church of the Lamb of God OR the Church of the Devil. It is their relationship with God; i.e., are they serving God, or are they serving the devil, which determines which "church" they belong to. The earth is now the dominion of Satan. If our thoughts and actions are founded upon the "worldly", we are members of the church of the Devil. We cannot serve both God and Satan at the same time.

Regards,

jo

[DJBrown]

One possibility I have considered is that this passage may be in a context we are not recognizing.

Consider verse 7 of the same chapter:

"For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken."

Could this be talking about a future development wherein the world is very polarized and things are even more black and white than they are now?

Consider 2 Nephi 30:10:

"For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire."

Maybe the statement that there are "save only two churches" applies to this time when there is a great division among the people. If this is true, we very likely do not fully recognize what constitutes the "great and abominable church of the devil" spoken of in 1 Nephi 10.

[DJBrown]

By the way, I think Mormon was likely referring to this global entity when he said this in Ether 8:

"Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies..."

I think this is an interesting statement made in 1829- that there would be some entity that would seek to overthrow the freedom of all nations. Little could Joseph have known of the rise of modern socialism and its global aspirations.

[Maidservant]

D&C 35:7-15.

[BCSpace]

What are everybody’s interpretations of these scriptures? Which church is the Church of the devil? Which church is the Church of the Lamb of God? If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the church of the Lamb of God, does that mean all other churches are part of the church of the devil?

Yes. Everyone who is not a member of the LDS Church is a member of the church of the Devil. It doesn't mean they are all evil. It means they labor under false philosophies and doctrines that prevent them from receiving eternal life if they don't ultimately reject them and accept the truth as taught by the LDS Church.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

*awaits with anticipatory weariness all the tendentious conspiracy theories this topic will inevitably produce*

[ldsfaqs]

False Doctrine BCSpace..... because even an LDS member can be a part of the Church of the devil by your definition, because even LDS can suffer from false doctrine, etc., just like the one you are currently promoting.

[BCSpace]

False Doctrine

I'm certain I'm right on target.

because even an LDS member can be a part of the Church of the devil by your definition,

I agree. Nothing I said precludes that.

because even LDS can suffer from false doctrine, etc.,

Sure.

just like the one you are currently promoting.

There are indeed some doctrines I disagree with like the Global Flood and it's baptism of the Earth corollary. And the continents literally separated in the days of Peleg. I also was in opposition to the Church's position on MX missle basing in Utah and their current stance on nuclear waste in Utah. Feel free to decide if I am an apostate or not by those.

But even Jesus Christ himself precluded numerous sects when he said:

And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

3 Nephi 27:8

So your interpretation sets up an internal conflict. The above verse shows that Catholics, Baptists, and Pentecostals etc. are not part of Christ's Church simply because of the name of their churches. Also, such Churches if there are any, must be built upon Christ's gospel. No other church besides the LDS Church exists that does that. And since there are save two Churches only, what church then do all nonLDS belong to according to that........?

What churches are being referred to in JS-H 1:19 whose doctrines are an abomination? The members of what churches inherit the Telestial Glory in the end if they don't switch now or in the afterlife according to D&C 76: 99-101? etc.

[Cobalt-70]

One possibility I have considered is that this passage may be in a context we are not recognizing.

Consider verse 7 of the same chapter:

"For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken."

Could this be talking about a future development wherein the world is very polarized and things are even more black and white than they are now?

The clue is the term "marvelous work," which Smith used to refer to the Book of Mormon and its preaching. So that's probably what Smith had in mind here, not some future event.

[jo1952]

I'm certain I'm right on target.

I agree. Nothing I said precludes that.

Sure.

There are indeed some doctrines I disagree with like the Global Flood and it's baptism of the Earth corollary. And the continents literally separated in the days of Peleg. I also was in opposition to the Church's position on MX missle basing in Utah and their current stance on nuclear waste in Utah. Feel free to decide if I am an apostate or not by those.

But even Jesus Christ himself precluded numerous sects when he said:

And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

3 Nephi 27:8

So your interpretation sets up an internal conflict. The above verse shows that Catholics, Baptists, and Pentecostals etc. are not part of Christ's Church simply because of the name of their churches. Also, such Churches if there are any, must be built upon Christ's gospel. No other church besides the LDS Church exists that does that. And since there are save two Churches only, what church then do all nonLDS belong to according to that........?

What churches are being referred to in JS-H 1:19 whose doctrines are an abomination? The members of what churches inherit the Telestial Glory in the end if they don't switch now or in the afterlife according to D&C 76: 99-101? etc.

You are missing the distinctive qualifier in Jesus' teaching: "if it so be that they are built upon my gospel." Jesus is talking about the "institution" of a "church". This is different from the verse in the OP wherein NEITHER of the two churches mentioned even hold the name of Jesus Christ or Lucifer. The distinction is whether or not man himself is a member of the Church of the Lamb of God OR the Church of the Devil. The OP is distinguishing between man's relationship with God versus man's relationship with Satan.

Another source which can help clarify this for you is the Book of Revelation. Even though there are seven different churches mentoined which encompass the various ATTRIBUTES of the members of those churches, it is ultimately the individual whose thoughts and actions determine WHICH of the TWO churches in the OP they actually belong to. All of this is explained in the Apocalyptic Revelation of John the Beloved. It rests on whether man is serving God or whether man is serving Satan; NOT whether or not they are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Think of it this way: There are members of the CoJCoLDS who are not fully serving God---they sometimes have one or two feet in the Church of the Lamb of God and are serving God. At other times those same members have one or two feet in the Church of the Devil (planted firmly in the world). Yet at ALL times they are still "officially" (even though not spiritually) a "member" of the CoJCoLDS. Since this is even possible, it is a false conclusion to say that you must be a member of the CoJCoLDS in order to fulfill the qualifications of the OP, as this is NOT a guaranty in God's eyes or in His Judgment that you are serving Him. The same can be said for every other religion/religious institution. Sometimes a member of another religion/religious institution has one or two feet in the Church of the Lamb of God and are serving God. At other times those same members have one or two feet in the Church of the Devil (planted firmly in the world).

Your doctrine is false; and, as such, is very dangerous. Please take some time to study and ponder on this. If you are making this claim to non-LDS, you could very well be discouraging them from sincerely investigating the LDS Church, as your doctrine contradicts the attributes of God's nature of Love, goodness, fairness, etc. If an investigator believes that your doctrine is LDS Church doctrine, they could understandably become discouraged and walk away before giving themselves the opportunity to do a complete investigation based upon their own personal findings of what the Holy Ghost is waiting to teach them.

Indeed, we must all be wary that we do not join the Church of the Devil through our own actions and choices regardless of the religious institution we hang our hat on.

Regards,

jo

Edited October 20, 2011 by jo1952

[Calm]

The 1988 Ensign article "Warring Against the Saints of God" is the most complete and accurate explanation of the phrase "Church of the Devil" I've seen and thus the least likely to be misinterpreted even by those who enjoy feeling superior to their brethren....which is, interestingly enough one of the stated characteristics of the inhabitants of the great and spacious building.

Edited October 20, 2011 by calmoriah

[jo1952]

The 1988 Ensign article "Warring Against the Saints of God" is the most complete and accurate explanation of the phrase "Church of the Devil" I've seen and thus the least likely to be misinterpreted even by those who enjoy feeling superior to their brethren....which is, interestingly enough one of the stated characteristics of the inhabitants of the great and spacious building.

Thank you for the heads up on that article. I just now finished reading it from beginning to end; and have bookmarked it for future reference. It is an excellent read.

Regards,

jo

Edited October 20, 2011 by jo1952

[Calm]

Thank you for the heads up on that article. I just now finished reading it from beginning to end; and have bookmarked it for future reference. It is an excellent read.

Very much so. I post a link to it every time this subject gets brought up and would do so if I had my laptop instead of my iPad....too lazy to type in the URL.

Some continue to choose to ignore it, but hopefully most won't.

[blackstrap]

Why the use of the term "church" ? Could it not have been better clarified with a different term like kingdom or somesuch. Most people have a vision of what a church means. The devil may have lots of buildings and institutions but few would call them "churches"

[Saints Alive]

Why the use of the term "church" ? Could it not have been better clarified with a different term like kingdom or somesuch. Most people have a vision of what a church means. The devil may have lots of buildings and institutions but few would call them "churches"

Personally I always insert the word community where ever it says Church because that is the true meaning of the word

[DJBrown]

The clue is the term "marvelous work," which Smith used to refer to the Book of Mormon and its preaching. So that's probably what Smith had in mind here, not some future event.

I used to think the same thing.

But an analysis of the words "great" and "marvelous" in the Book of Mormon convinced me otherwise.

Read the verse again and consider the highlighted portion:

"For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken."

I don't think we can say that the restoration of the gospel has resulted in a large group of people being delivered and brought down into temporal destruction. I suppose one could simply assume this is talking about the state of the soul after this life. But I personally believe this refers to something in this world and in this life. Hence, Nephi's later statement that:

""For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The clue is the term "marvelous work," which Smith used to refer to the Book of Mormon and its preaching. So that's probably what Smith had in mind here, not some future event.

Another person that claims to be able to read the minds of dead people.

[Maidservant]

And since there are save two Churches only, what church then do all nonLDS belong to according to that........?

This is the right question.

However, you have answered it for yourself that all nonLDS by that token are in the Church of the Devil; but the answer that most people realize when pondering on this, since it is obvious that most people on the earth do not belong to the Church of the Devil (since most are sincere and honest people), then it follows that all nonLDS (all people, period) DO belong to the Church of the Lamb of God (unless they are truly wicked by some measure of their behavior). Anyone who perpetuates that which is good, is within the Church of the Lamb of God, as far as the fortunes of this world and its history.

[T-Shirt]

The statement is apocalyptic. It simply is referring to the end, when, ultimately, in God's eyes there will only be two churches and everyone will belong to one or the other. Right now is the time to build up the Church of the Lamb in order to save as many people as possible in order that they do not become subject to the devil.

The statement does not refer to the various churches on the earth today, although, the Church of the Devil certainly exists. The Church of the Devil is working hard, just as we should be, to gain converts, in preparation for the day of which Nephi speaks.

Best,

T-Shirt

Edited October 20, 2011 by T-Shirt