The Church Of The Lamb Of God And The Church Of The Devil

[BCSpace]

While I agree that it is better to believe in God of sorts, and attend a church service of some description, and pray to God, than to not believe anything at all, or practise no religion at all; how do you square your above statement with the following verses in the Book of Mormon and the D&C:

Amen.

Or how does one square such with Elder Holland when he officially says things like:

Let me add another element to this view of the dispensation. Because ours is the last and greatest of all dispensations, because all things will eventually culminate and be fulfilled in our era, there is, therefore, one specific responsibility that falls to those of us in the Church now that did not rest quite the same way on Church members in any earlier time. We have a responsibility to prepare the Church of the Lamb of God to receive the Lamb of God—in person, in triumphant glory, in His millennial role as Lord of lords and King of kings.

We have the responsibility as a Church and as individual members of that Church to be worthy to have Christ come to us, to be worthy to have Him greet us, and to have Him accept, receive, and embrace us. The lives we present to Him in that sacred hour must be worthy of Him!

Liahona, July 2007, This, the Greatest of All Dispensations, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

Are we going to prepare by attending the Baptist church down the street? Or what specific Church is Boyd K Packer equating to the Churhc of the Lamb of God when he officially says:

It has never been easy to live the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was not easy when He lived, and it was not easy in the early days of the Church. The early Saints were subjected to unspeakable suffering and opposition.

It has been over 180 years since the priesthood was restored. We now number nearly 14 million members. Even so, we are a tiny fraction when compared to the billions of people on earth. But we are who we are, and we know what we know, and we are to go forth and preach the gospel.

The Book of Mormon makes it clear that we never will dominate by numbers. But we have the power of the priesthood.¹⁹

The prophet Nephi wrote, “It came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few … ; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small.”²⁰

Liahona, May 2010, The Power of the Priesthood, President Boyd K. Packer

[jo1952]

So the LDS Church does not claim to be the only true Church? Does the LDS Church recognize baptism outside it's own authority? What other church brings eternal life via membership in it? I have given specific reference in those verses. Some of course are unwilling to carry out the implications of what the scriptures say into reality, but that's not my responsibility.

Obviously, you are forcing "true" Church to be the same as the Church of the Lamb of God. I think you are confused on this matter, which is WHY I asked you to provide a CFR of where the Church herself claims to be the Church of the Lamb of God. If you do some research on this, you will be able to see that these are NOT one and the same.

Edited to add: As a a matter of fact, your reference to Elder Holland's talk seems pretty clear in that he does not think that the LDS Church is the Church of the Lamb of God. However, he does explain that the LDS Church is here to help prepare the Church of the Lamb of God for Christ's coming. He doe NOT make the claim we are one and the same.

Edited again: The Church does not bring eternal life to anyone. Christ does!!! We are the current vehicle with the power and authority to perform the necessary ordinances which are required for eternal life. A person does not have to be a member of the Church to receive eternal life or even Exaltation. They DO need their ordinances done, regardless of WHO had the power and authority to perform those ordinances throughout the age of mankind.

Regards,

jo

Edited October 25, 2011 by jo1952

[Sky]

In defense of BCSpace, because I understand where he is coming from.

Obviously, you are forcing "true" Church to be the same as the Church of the Lamb of God. I think you are confused on this matter, which is WHY I asked you to provide a CFR of where the Church herself claims to be the Church of the Lamb of God. If you do some research on this, you will be able to see that these are NOT one and the same.

The Church is named after Jesus Christ – who is the Lamb of God. Christ Himself named it (see D&C 115) and the leaders of the church regularly declare that Christ stands at the head of this church. Would it not then logically follow that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact the Church of the Lamb of God?

Edited to add: As a a matter of fact, your reference to Elder Holland's talk seems pretty clear in that he does not think that the LDS Church is the Church of the Lamb of God.

I didn’t get that impression from Elder Holland’s comments. That is one way you could interpret them, but I don’t think it’s “pretty clear.”

However, he does explain that the LDS Church is here to help prepare the Church of the Lamb of God for Christ's coming. He doe NOT make the claim we are one and the same.

It has always been my understanding that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was specifically established to help prepare the world for the second coming of Christ. As far as I know, no other church has been given that commission.

And honestly, if somebody can already be a part of the Church of the Lamb of God without being a member of the LDS Church, then why do we send missionaries out to baptize people into our church? What is the big incentive? Obviously we believe we have something that other people are lacking; otherwise we would not baptize them.

Edited again: The Church does not bring eternal life to anyone. Christ does!!! We are the current vehicle with the power and authority to perform the necessary ordinances which are required for eternal life. A person does not have to be a member of the Church to receive eternal life or even Exaltation. They DO need their ordinances done, regardless of WHO had the power and authority to perform those ordinances throughout the age of mankind.

Your conclusion does not quite fall into place. If the LDS Church is the current vehicle with the power and authority to perform the necessary ordinances which are required for eternal life, then a person DOES need to become a member of the Church.

If their ordinances need to be done, and the LDS Church is the only way for them to be properly performed, then the Church is necessary for eternal life and exaltation.

[jo1952]

In defense of BCSpace, because I understand where he is coming from.

The Church is named after Jesus Christ – who is the Lamb of God. Christ Himself named it (see D&C 115) and the leaders of the church regularly declare that Christ stands at the head of this church. Would it not then logically follow that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact the Church of the Lamb of God?

I didn’t get that impression from Elder Holland’s comments. That is one way you could interpret them, but I don’t think it’s “pretty clear.”

It has always been my understanding that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was specifically established to help prepare the world for the second coming of Christ. As far as I know, no other church has been given that commission.

And honestly, if somebody can already be a part of the Church of the Lamb of God without being a member of the LDS Church, then why do we send missionaries out to baptize people into our church? What is the big incentive? Obviously we believe we have something that other people are lacking; otherwise we would not baptize them.

Your conclusion does not quite fall into place. If the LDS Church is the current vehicle with the power and authority to perform the necessary ordinances which are required for eternal life, then a person DOES need to become a member of the Church.

If their ordinances need to be done, and the LDS Church is the only way for them to be properly performed, then the Church is necessary for eternal life and exaltation.

Hi Sky,

Inasmuch as I have already posted the reasons I believe that the JoJCoLDS is NOT one and the same with the Church of the Lamb of God, I would invite you to scroll through this thread to read my posts, as I have already answered your questions in them. If you have additional questions about where I am coming from, please let me know. Actually other posters have also already addressed and answered the same questions---many whose comments are in agreement with mine. If this thread were many more pages in length, I would go back and reference the specific posts for you. Since it is only 4 pages at this point, I think it would be more time effecient for you to peruse the comments made so far rather than have me start my presentation all over again. Also, this will give you the opportunity to see the exact questions along with the answers at the same time.

Regards,

jo

PS -- Is BCSpace a "he"??

Edited October 26, 2011 by jo1952

[BCSpace]

Obviously, you are forcing "true" Church to be the same as the Church of the Lamb of God. I think you are confused on this matter, which is WHY I asked you to provide a CFR of where the Church herself claims to be the Church of the Lamb of God. If you do some research on this, you will be able to see that these are NOT one and the same.

And I provided CFR both indirect and direct neither of which you have addressed in any way except to deny.

Edited to add: As a a matter of fact, your reference to Elder Holland's talk seems pretty clear in that he does not think that the LDS Church is the Church of the Lamb of God. However, he does explain that the LDS Church is here to help prepare the Church of the Lamb of God for Christ's coming. He doe NOT make the claim we are one and the same.

So again I ask the question: What are you going to do to prepare? Are you going to attend the Baptist church? Are you going to teach the trinity heresy? If you are active LDS, merely answering the question as to why you are LDS and not going to some other Church is evidence that one accepts that the LDS Church is the Church of the Lamb of God or the Church of Jesus Christ.

Edited again: The Church does not bring eternal life to anyone. Christ does!!!

And, lest we forget, he does it through his Church. It contains the correct teachings. It holds the proper authority. It performs the ordinaces required for exaltation. Without it, one cannot receive the testimony of Jesus. In other words, the Church organization (LDS) is a requirement for salvation and eternal life. Start with Ephesians 4:11-14.

We are the current vehicle with the power and authority to perform the necessary ordinances which are required for eternal life. A person does not have to be a member of the Church to receive eternal life or even Exaltation.

What other Church performs the necessary ordinances? The bottom line is that the LDS Church is earthly manifestation of the heavenly Church. They are one and the same.

They DO need their ordinances done, regardless of WHO had the power and authority to perform those ordinances throughout the age of mankind.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. All the same Church throughout the ages. Wouldn't be using the term "restoration" if it weren't so.

[BCSpace]

The scriptures speak of there being two Churches, yet for at least almost 1500 years there was no authorized priesthood holding church present on earth. If the Church of the Lamb is identical to this authorized organization, then there was only one Church, not two at least during this time frame thus contradicting what the scriptures teach.

Incorrect. The Church of the Lamb of God still existed, there was no earthly manifestation of it though during the universal apostasy. Interesting how you made an argument similar to that of other christians who deny the universiality of the apostasy as taught by the Church of the Lamb of God.

[jo1952]

Incorrect. The Church of the Lamb of God still existed, there was no earthly manifestation of it though during the universal apostasy. Interesting how you made an argument similar to that of other christians who deny the universiality of the apostasy as taught by the Church of the Lamb of God.

I think you are incorrect. What you stated above is how one must inevitably view your interpretation that the LDS Church and the Church of the Lamb of God are one and the same. However, BOTH the Church of the Lamb of God AND the Church of the Devil have always been on the earth. As far as I know there has never been a time when the Church of the Devil was on the earth without the presence of the Church of the Lamb of God. The Church of the Devil is representative of the evil that is on the earth. The Church of the Lamb of God is representative of the Good that is on the earth. In fact, in the worse case scenario as presented in scripture was when there were only eight people left on the earth---and they belonged at that time to the Church of the Lamb of God even though the earth was still the domain of the Devil. BOTH good AND evil have ALWAYS been present. If they were not both always present, then anyone born on the earth without good being present would have come to the earth in vain;i.e., they came to learn the difference between good and evil.. In fact that thought boggles my mind. It is like saying that whenever the Priesthood was NOT on the earth, then even though people DID believe in Jesus Christ, the Atonement could not save them. The only thing lacking during that time was the ordinance of baptism. In these latter-days that ordinance is being accomplished through the vehicle of the LDS Church. The LDS Church doesn't make believers out of the persons whose ordinances are being performed. It is still up to the individual; which means that they could STILL be against us!!! Do you not see the difference?? Ordinances performed for the dead do NOT make them members of the LDS Church because WE have no way knowing if they are going to accept the work or not. We DO accomplishes the necessary ordinances for those who ARE worthy of, and who WILL enter Exaltation upon acceptance of that work. They are already members of the Church of the Lamb of God BEFORE those ordinances are performed. The ordinances complete the requirements, as they need to formalize and enter into that covenant with God.

Additionally, you are ignoring Jesus' own words that those who are not against Him/Us are for us. They CANNOT belong to the Church of the Devil if they are for us. So where are they, if they are not in the Church of the Devil? Since there are only two choices, I believe they are in the Church of the Lamb of God. Indeed if you believe that the LDS Church is one and the same as the Church of the Lamb of God, then being a member of the Church of the Lamb of God is STILL not enough to guaranty salvation since membership in the LDS Church is not a guaranty. There is a distinction to be made which I believe you are unwilling to contemplate; which is the difference between a church as an institution or a member of that institution versus the faith (or good works of the individual who has not yet received the witness of the Holy Ghost) of the individual.

I see no purpose in continuing the presentation of my comments to you on this subject. I have had my say and explained why I believe as I do. We are both free to believe what we understand to be the Truth. This gives neither of us the ability to prove that one of us is correct and one is not. It is ONLY the Holy Ghost who can reveal Truth; and then only in accordance with what Father deems we are ready to receive. As such, it could very well be that we both have it wrong in some part, and in some part have some of the Truth. I share what Truth has been revealed to me; that does not mean that I have received all of the Truth related to ANY subject. There are layers of understanding which are continually being revealed. If we become fixed on any subject, then I believe we will not be able to learn anything additional about that subject.

Regards,

jo