Sunday School: "Why Do Some Of Us Occasionally Disregard Our Church Leaders’ Counsel?"

[mbh26]

Even then we should remember that if we obey reasonable consel the Lord will bless our efforts. Zions Camp is a great example of the blessing of obedience in the face of human decisions by leaders.

Do you believe this is true for people following "reasonable" counsel in other religions, such as Catholicism? Will faithful Catholics be blessed for the idulgences they paid in good faith, not wanting to question authority or the status quo?

[Verum]

I’m not sure what was said about birth control in the past, but here is what Book 2 of the current Church Handbook of Instructions says about birth control and surgical sterilization. Based on this information, it sounds like birth control isn’t a problem, but surgical sterilization is a no-go.

Birth Control

It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.

Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

You are quoting the current stance and position of the church. I know that this issue has evolved and is different than the previous stance on birth control. The quote in my last post about birth control was from President Kimball. My last post was discussed how one could react at that point in timewhen he said that people should just live together and let the children come and that birth control was evil.

[Duncan]

That's laissez-faire enough for me.

Funny thing about the "surgical sterilization" policy. It shows up in the search results, but it doesn't seem to actually appear anywhere in the online CHI. If anyone can find it, let me know.

Frankly, as we've gotten older my wife and I have met more and more LDS couples that have shared their experience with "surgical sterilization". I can't remember a single one even hinting at any sort of concern over what God or the Church might think. I think all would have been surprised that there is such a discouragement.

I know a few men around here who have had it done, one is a Bishop, and from they have told me none have even thought to consult their non-Doctor Bishops about a medical procedure

[Sky]

Funny thing about the "surgical sterilization" policy. It shows up in the search results, but it doesn't seem to actually appear anywhere in the online CHI. If anyone can find it, let me know.

Here you go:

http://lds.org/handb...es?lang=eng#214

Question for mods: why can't I attach a text description to my link? I wanted to have the words "Here you go" in blue, but I couldn't figure out how to do it with this updated version of the board.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's laissez-faire enough for me.

Funny thing about the "surgical sterilization" policy. It shows up in the search results, but it doesn't seem to actually appear anywhere in the online CHI. If anyone can find it, let me know.

I haven't tried online, but I can find it easily enough in my "LDS LIbrary" iPhone/iPod Touch app.

Frankly, as we've gotten older my wife and I have met more and more LDS couples that have shared their experience with "surgical sterilization". I can't remember a single one even hinting at any sort of concern over what God or the Church might think. I think all would have been surprised that there is such a discouragement.

It has become something of a trend or fad among baby-boomer Church members. I think many were following the crowd and were not exercising good judgment on their own. Hence, the need for counsel.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Sky]

Do you believe this is true for people following "reasonable" counsel in other religions, such as Catholicism? Will faithful Catholics be blessed for the idulgences they paid in good faith, not wanting to question authority or the status quo?

They will be blessed according to how well they lived up to the light and knowledge they had. God knows the intentions of their hearts. There is always repentance and forgiveness, too. Their temple work will be done for them in due time.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here you go:

http://lds.org/handb...es?lang=eng#214

Question for mods: why can't I attach a text description to my link? I wanted to have the words "Here you go" in blue, but I couldn't figure out how to do it with this updated version of the board.

Highlight it, then go to the little icon that looks like a chain link. A link prompt pops up, and you simply paste in the link that you have already copied onto your clipboard. The highlighted text then appears in blue.

It works for me, at least.

[Scott Lloyd]

I know a few men around here who have had it done, one is a Bishop, and from they have told me none have even thought to consult their non-Doctor Bishops about a medical procedure

As I said, I think there have been many otherwise faithful Church members who have not exercised good judgment on this point.

[Sky]

Highlight it, then go to the little icon that looks like a chain link. A link prompt pops up, and you simply paste in the link that you have already copied onto your clipboard. The highlighted text then appears in blue.

It works for me, at least.

Thank you!

[Scott Lloyd]

That's laissez-faire enough for me.

Here's a portion you didn't include in your quote:

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them.

As I see it, implicit in this statement is a guiding principle not to limit the number of children for purely selfish or materialistic reasons.

Which is a good reason not to undergo surgical sterilization. One never knows what circumstances one may be in at some future time, and sterilization is pretty much irrevocable.

[Sky]

I have actually known of couples who have had their tubes tied, and afterwards decided they wanted to get pregnant again. They had to have a procedure to get them untied. Seems time-consuming and costly to me.

[Duncan]

I have actually known of couples who have had their tubes tied, and afterwards decided they wanted to get pregnant again. They had to have a procedure to get them untied. Seems time-consuming and costly to me.

Which is why we have been counseled not to judge another in these matters. How others use their agency is their business

[Calm]

I have actually known of couples who have had their tubes tied, and afterwards decided they wanted to get pregnant again. They had to have a procedure to get them untied. Seems time-consuming and costly to me.

And not always effective. I would never ask my husband to undergo a procedure because he loves children and if it had turned out my health issue was worse than I thought leading to an early death for me, I would want him not only to remarry but have children. With the divorce rate the way it is as well as the possibility of the death of one of the spouses, sterilization seems inappropriate for convenience or simple birth control especially since the pill is almost as effective if taken properly. Birth control worked just fine for me for a couple of decades after we decided I was not capable of handling another child, and who knows what the future holds but God....there was always a chance that they might figure out what was wrong with me and there was a cure. I would only suggest sterilization as birth control in the case where other forms of birth control weren't an option due to side effects or unavailability. I do think if it is to avoid a medically detrimental situation than it may be appropriate, but just because someone doesn't want the hassle of other birth control forms...that's an iffy situation IMO especially these days with some very convenient forms out there.

[LDSToronto]

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)

The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

My wife and I didn't want anymore kids than the ones we have so I got a vasectomy. Didn't pray about it, didn't talk to the bishop. Guess what? No regrets.

Besides, doesn't the church preach that *I* have stewardship over my family? So isn't this *my* business (and my wife's) and not the bishops?

H.

[Storm Rider]

My wife and I didn't want anymore kids than the ones we have so I got a vasectomy. Didn't pray about it, didn't talk to the bishop. Guess what? No regrets.

Besides, doesn't the church preach that *I* have stewardship over my family? So isn't this *my* business (and my wife's) and not the bishops?

H.

The only reason to talk to a bishop is if there is a degree of confusion. Talking to a bishop is not about seeking permission, but about clarification.

[Scott Lloyd]

My wife and I didn't want anymore kids than the ones we have so I got a vasectomy. Didn't pray about it, didn't talk to the bishop. Guess what? No regrets.

Besides, doesn't the church preach that *I* have stewardship over my family? So isn't this *my* business (and my wife's) and not the bishops?

H.

No one's agency is being denied here. But if it were a simple matter of whatever any given couple decides being OK, I don't think the Church, as a matter of policy, would "strongly discourage" surgical sterilization.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Sky]

My wife and I didn't want anymore kids than the ones we have so I got a vasectomy. Didn't pray about it, didn't talk to the bishop. Guess what? No regrets.

Besides, doesn't the church preach that *I* have stewardship over my family? So isn't this *my* business (and my wife's) and not the bishops?

H.

I was just quoting the Church’s guidelines. You can do with it what you will. But some of us do want to take into consideration what the Church has to say about it.

I also want to clarify something. I don’t think for one minute that having had a vasectomy makes you a bad person.

I don’t believe something like this would jeopardize somebody’s worthiness to have a temple recommend or hold a calling. For anybody in doubt, you could always ask your bishop about it.

[Jaybear]

I was just quoting the Church’s guidelines. You can do with it what you will. But some of us do want to take into consideration what the Church has to say about it.

I also want to clarify something. I don’t think for one minute that having had a vasectomy makes you a bad person.

I don’t believe something like this would jeopardize somebody’s worthiness to have a temple recommend or hold a calling. For anybody in doubt, you could always ask your bishop about it.

Why?

You can't effectively provide counsel without providing a clear cogent reason for your counsel.

So why is it wrong for a couple to decide that the husband should get a vasectomy. Why is it any business of their bishop, how many children they have, and how they go about controlling the size of their family.