blackstrap Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I had a strange thought today about life and death and the continuation of cell life. I understand that the cells of some people have been kept alive and growing(and dying) for many years in labs. I wondered what part ,if any, that spirit played in such situations.
TAO Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Death occurs when the soul leaves the body semi-permanently... until the ressurection... but I may be wrong on that =P.
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Death occurs when the spirit leaves the body. Note that death is not always permanent.I think Lazarus got a raw deal. Worked his way to the end and was done and then he's brought back to die all over again.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Death is below baseline brain activity.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I had a strange thought today about life and death and the continuation of cell life. I understand that the cells of some people have been kept alive and growing(and dying) for many years in labs. I wondered what part ,if any, that spirit played in such situations.My opinion: Death occurs when the spirit enters the spirit world, regardless of what is being done to the body to maintain active function, or whatever degree of cell, tissue or organ life is going on. Harvesting and propagating living cells does not require the consent or participation of the originating organism's spirit.
shalamabobbi Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 When does death occur?"If you find your self alone riding in green fields with the sun in your face... do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium. And you are already dead! Brothers... what we do in life... echoes in eternity!" 1
ed2276 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I think TAO and CV75 have it right.James wrote that the body without the spirit is dead. It would seem to me, then, that when the spirit leaves the body, not to return to the body until the resurrection, death has occurred.
The Nehor Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 "If you find your self alone riding in green fields with the sun in your face... do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium. And you are already dead! Brothers... what we do in life... echoes in eternity!""If you find yourself on a green field with a sword in the midst of glorious battle and die and fight every day and then rise again to visit mead halls every night to drink to the day's valor....do not be troubled, for you are in Asgard. And you are already dead! Brothers...what we do in death...will be drunk to in eternity!"
ed2276 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 "If you find yourself on a green field with a sword in the midst of glorious battle and die and fight every day and then rise again to visit mead halls every night to drink to the day's valor....do not be troubled, for you are in Asgard. And you are already dead! Brothers...what we do in death...will be drunk to in eternity!"Weren't the Asgard wirey, gray creatures with big black eyes in the Stargate SG-1 series?
Calm Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Blasphemy.....did you not see Thor? Though honestly, Anthony Hopkins as Odin didn't really work for me.
blackstrap Posted October 10, 2011 Author Posted October 10, 2011 So,are we saying that life does NOT require spirit in order to proceed? I am not saying "a" spirit,just spiritual matter.
Nofear Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 So,are we saying that life does NOT require spirit in order to proceed? I am not saying "a" spirit,just spiritual matter.I pretty sure that there are plenty of biological functions that can and do occur without direct interaction with a spirit body -- functions which a biologist might qualify as "living". Free willed sentience, however, I do not believe is among such spiritless processes and that appears to be what a lot of the posters are referring to as "living" with its absence being "death".
Tarski Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I had a strange thought today about life and death and the continuation of cell life. I understand that the cells of some people have been kept alive and growing(and dying) for many years in labs. I wondered what part ,if any, that spirit played in such situations.I pretty sure that there are plenty of biological functions that can and do occur without direct interaction with a spirit body -- functions which a biologist might qualify as "living". Free willed sentience, however, I do not believe is among such spiritless processes and that appears to be what a lot of the posters are referring to as "living" with its absence being "death".If one demands a precise answer then one will be disappointed. There is no fact of the matter. One may as well ask where the exact edge of a cloud is found.On the other hand, perception, judgement, decision, self awareness, mental imagery and all other forms of cognition are based in the biological activiies of the brain.Once the brain becomes irreversibly unable to support such defining activities of personhood because of cell death or structural damage, then we can rationally declare that death has occured.What is so hard about that?
thesometimesaint Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Tarski:It is a little more complicated than that. A person placed in a protective coma is still very much alive, but as far as we can tell there is no perception, judgement, decision, self awareness, or mental imagery.
CV75 Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 So,are we saying that life does NOT require spirit in order to proceed? I am not saying "a" spirit,just spiritual matter.In that sense, death requires spirit (and a spirit) also. All things are spiritual. Life and death are a function of the interaction between spirit and element. Ultimately life requires God, who has a spirit and who works with spirit and the light of Christ, which is also often referred to as spirit. But as the idea of spirit gets expanded, so must the definitions of element and life.
Tarski Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) Tarski:It is a little more complicated than that. A person placed in a protective coma is still very much alive, but as far as we can tell there is no perception, judgement, decision, self awareness, or mental imagery.A little more complicated than that it is so complicated that there is no fact of the matter?In any case, you will please take note of my use of the word "irreversibly". Edited October 10, 2011 by Tarski
blackstrap Posted October 10, 2011 Author Posted October 10, 2011 From the NDEs that I have read about,the spirit leaves the body but apparently parts of the body continue the job of bodily functioning,at least at the cellular level and perhaps the organ level.There do not seem to be many lasting effects even though some have been pronounced dead for over an hour. There are also stories of hair and fingernail growth after death. This I think has been shown to be related to skin shrinkage.I suppose that the presence of rigor mortis is a conclusive sign but it sometimes does not set in for quite a while. Again,life seems to be able to go on without a spirit ,but can it go on without"spirit"?
CV75 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) Again,life seems to be able to go on without a spirit ,but can it go on without"spirit"?As I mentioned in post #16, neither life nor death can go on without God. God is Spirit, His glory is light and emanates from His Spirit to govern all things (D&C 88: 5, 12, 13) including life (verses 4, 13). So life cannot go on without "spirit," whether we identify that spirit as God's Spirit, spiritual power, the light of Christ, the spirit of truth, truth, etc. (see D& 93 as well).If your question is whether a cell can function with the same "spirit" as a nanomachine, it would appear that they operate under different principles and different "spirits" but as long as either exists, either has a measure of truth, intelligence and agency operating within or upon it or both (D&C 93:30). D&C 93 on the shows the connections between existence, spirit, Spirit, light, light of truth, truth, intelligence, knowledge, agency, power, governance, etc. Edited October 11, 2011 by CV75
CV75 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) no sure what happened here... maybe I'm dead. Edited October 11, 2011 by CV75
Tarski Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) From the NDEs that I have read about,the spirit leaves the body but apparently parts of the body continue the job of bodily functioning,at least at the cellular level and perhaps the organ level.There do not seem to be many lasting effects even though some have been pronounced dead for over an hour. There are also stories of hair and fingernail growth after death. This I think has been shown to be related to skin shrinkage.I suppose that the presence of rigor mortis is a conclusive sign but it sometimes does not set in for quite a while. Again,life seems to be able to go on without a spirit ,but can it go on without"spirit"?All of these little pseudo-problems would go away if you guys would just recognize thata) living organisms are nothing but organized patterns of matter and energy--biochemical machines. We are dead when we are irreparably broken;b) the word "spirit" is being thrown around uncomprehendingly. It is a mere placeholder for a supposed missing ingredient but a mere word explains nothing. One might as well just say that a living being is dead when the "life" goes out of it (and I can only hope that at least some people see why that doesn't add any understanding at all). Edited October 11, 2011 by Tarski
Monster Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 No one really knows anything about death other than the body stops working, organs cease to function and brian activity stops. Beyond that it is all speculation. Interesting to think about but speculation none the less.
blackstrap Posted October 11, 2011 Author Posted October 11, 2011 It seems that there is a "missing ingredient" .Life,be it plant or animal,comes from life.Medical science can keep cells alive indefinitely but they had to be alive to begin with. Once they are dead they stay that way. Whole organs can be kept "alive" for a period of time but not indefinitely.People can be kept alive by machine for quite a while but there does come a point of no return.Even if all the ingredients are present for life to work there is no way yet to do the Dr Frankenstein trick and put the genie back in the bottle.( love mixed metaphors)
Tarski Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) It seems that there is a "missing ingredient" .Life,be it plant or animal,comes from life.Medical science can keep cells alive indefinitely but they had to be alive to begin with. Once they are dead they stay that way. Whole organs can be kept "alive" for a period of time but not indefinitely.People can be kept alive by machine for quite a while but there does come a point of no return.Even if all the ingredients are present for life to work there is no way yet to do the Dr Frankenstein trick and put the genie back in the bottle.( love mixed metaphors)But there isn't a missing ingredient. You need to think in terms of function of the whole. The whole system has to function and if one or several things are seriously wrong locally, the whole system will break down like a computer program with degraded or damaged files. The problem could be local and invisible to casual inspection- even microscopic- and the susequent finality is set once there is sufficient brain damage. There is your point of no return--irreversible massive brain damage.In death there is always something wrong physically (even if it is not visible to the naked eye) that prevents the continuation of the global systemic and cognitive activites that make for a living human being.Consider this: The perceived need for a notion of spirit has dwindled as biology -esp. molecular biology- has progressed. Why is that?Also, one can observe that the probability that a person feels a need for the "spirit hypothesis" seems to be inversely proportional to that person's level of understanding of biology. It is no wonder, for example, that Crick comes to the materialistic conclusions he does in his famous book "The astonishing hypothesis: the scientific search for the soul".Why doesn't Crick (or most academic biologists) see a missing ingredient? Edited October 11, 2011 by Tarski
thesometimesaint Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Tarski:Even in a protective coma it is still a hope that the person will come out of it. Far too often it was nothing more than a hope.
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