Is A Figurative View Of Adam Inconsistent With Mormonism

[bu11fr0g]

Could we be adopted into the family of Adam in the same sense that we are adopted into the house of Israel?

It seems we are stuck posting Adam over a million years ago or if saying that he was ~6000 years ago that there large numbers of humans that are not descendants of Adam.

Either way, does this make the fall figurative as well? I am having trouble with this not unravelling much of Mormon doctrine.

[Rivers]

Could we be adopted into the family of Adam in the same sense that we are adopted into the house of Israel?

It seems we are stuck posting Adam over a million years ago or if saying that he was ~6000 years ago that there large numbers of humans that are not descendants of Adam.

Either way, does this make the fall figurative as well? I am having trouble with unraveling much of Mormon doctrine.

If we want to harmonize the scriptures with mainstream scientific understandings of the earth's history, some aspects of a straight

forward reading of the scriptures must be sacrificed.

Either we must abandon the traditional 6,000 year time line and place Adam at a much earlier date in the world's history, or we must abandon the belief that Adam and Eve are the sole common ancestors of the human race.

I lean towards the latter.

[Kevin Christensen]

"straight forward" reading usually means, "according to the unexamined assumptions of my culture." As the parable of the sower tries to tell us, the same words, depending on how contextualized and nurtured, can offer radically different yields.

Nibley's "Before Adam" remains helpful.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=73

His later Abraham's Temple Drama takes things further.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=72

Margaret Barker offers helpful perspectives here:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/CreationTheology.pdf

And more recently, here:

http://www.templestudiesgroup.com/Barker_TheParadisaicTemple.pdf

A comparison of the six days of creation and the stages of erecting the tabernacle (Exod.40.16-33)

show that each day of creation was represented by one item of tabernacle or temple furnishing. The

sixth day, when Adam was created, corresponded to the laver of water in which the high priests

purified themselves before approaching the altar. Thus the creation of Adam represented the high

priesthhood.

The way to create a world in six days is to ritually make a model.

LDS scientist David Bailey has several papers on relationship between various LDS thinkers and science here:

http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/index.html

Bailey has some very helpful perspectives on the range of thinking in LDS, and the outside and scriptural influences that make them so.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Questing Beast]

Adam is a title as well as a name. "They are many." The "Adam" that came to this planet was placed into a terraformed setting on a world already very old. That "garden" was of definite extent, and probably sealed off from outside contact for as long as required. Once Adam and Eve left the "garden", they entered the already ongoing outside world at large. Any animals also contained within the "garden" also emigrated to the outside world at large. Once the "garden" was breached, it gradually faded away until it became indistinguishable from the surrounding world. There were already species of subhumans and other animals inhabiting the planet from earlier epochs. Some of Adam and Eve's children (notably Cain) interbred with the most advanced hominids.

Alternatively, the entire story of Adam and Eve is a myth, created out of whole cloth.

I don't know or care which version I believe the most from one day to the next: as the story does not interact with my theology at any point

[mapman]

One thing one has to come to terms with is that multiple modern prophets have said that they have seen Adam in visions.

Joseph F. Smith's vision (D&C 138:38-40):

"Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam."

Joseph Smith vision (D&C 137:5-6):

"I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept; And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins."

Joseph Smith also heard the voice of Michael (D&C 128:20):

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times! And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!"

From a discourse of Joseph Smith (http://lds.org/Static%20Files/PDF/Manuals/English/TchPresChurch-JSmith/CU_TchPresChurch_JSmith_12___36481_000_012.pdf, p. 105):

"I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation."

Zebedee Coltrin told of another vision (Minute Book of the Salt Lake School of the Prophets):

"Once after returning from a mission, he met Bro. Joseph in Kirtland, who asked him if he did not wish to go with him to a conference at New Portage. The party consisted of Prests. Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdry (sic) (p. 70) and myself. Next morning at New Portage, he noticed that Joseph seemed to have a far off look in his eyes, or was looking at a distance, and presently he, Joseph, stepped between Brothers Cowdry (sic), and Coltrin and taking them by the arm, said, "lets take a walk." They went to a place where there was some beautiful grass, and grapevines and swampbeech interlaced. President Joseph Smith than (sic) said, "Let us pray." They all three prayed in turn--Joseph, Oliver, and Zebedee. Bro. Joseph than (sic) said, "now brethren (sic) we will see some visions." Joseph lay down on the ground on his back and stretched out his arms and the two brethren lay on them. The heavens gradually opened, and they saw a golden throne, on a circular foundation, something like a light house, and on the throne were two aged personages, having white hair, and clothed in white garments. They were the two most beautiful and perfect specimens of mankind he ever saw. Joseph said, They are our first parents, Adam and Eve. Adam was a large broadshouldered man, and Eve as a woman, was as large in proportion."

I'm interested in hearing how a Mormon who does not believe in a literal Adam and Eve deals with these quotes.

[thesometimesaint]

bu11fr0g:

Small correction our species is about 200,000 years old not millions. However my take on A&E is take it is figurative and literal. Meaning that there really was a individual person Adam and a individual person Eve that through them this world became populated. It could of been through a series of genetic bottlenecks, and other events that I don't know about.

[Calm]

I believe there is at least one Adam and Eve who began the family of man who lived within the covenant of God. There may be others who fulfilled other roles relating to mankind, so I would say that they are both literal and figurative. They don't have to be one or the other as one can demonstrate by pointing to historical, but also mythological individuals such as George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King John, etc. where the individual has come to stand for something more than what he actually was, achieving a symbolic and therefore figurative nature as well as a historical one.

Edited September 25, 2011 by calmoriah

[David T]

Either way, does this make the fall figurative as well? I am having trouble with this not unravelling much of Mormon doctrine.

The doctrine of the Fall is twofold:

a) We (every one of us) were in the presence of God, and by our actions and faults and guilt distanced ourselves from Him.

b) We (every one of us) chose to take upon ourselves appropriate mortal bodies to gain experience, knowing that these bodies would die.

The life of Christ creates the antidote to both of those difficulties, and provide the way to repair our relationship and unity with God without anything in the Garden Narrative having anything to with recording details of an historical event.

[David T]

bu11fr0g:

Small correction our species is about 200,000 years old not millions. However my take on A&E is take it is figurative and literal. Meaning that there really was a individual person Adam and a individual person Eve that through them this world became populated. It could of been through a series of genetic bottlenecks, and other events that I don't know about.

Recent studies have shown that most humans have remnants of Neanderthal DNA, for what it's worth.

[David T]

One thing one has to come to terms with is that multiple modern prophets have said that they have seen Adam in visions.

Joseph F. Smith's vision (D&C 138:38-40):

"Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam."

Joseph Smith vision (D&C 137:5-6):

"I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept; And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins."

Joseph Smith also heard the voice of Michael (D&C 128:20):

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times! And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!"

From a discourse of Joseph Smith (http://lds.org/Stati...481_000_012.pdf, p. 105):

"I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation."

Zebedee Coltrin told of another vision (Minute Book of the Salt Lake School of the Prophets):

"Once after returning from a mission, he met Bro. Joseph in Kirtland, who asked him if he did not wish to go with him to a conference at New Portage. The party consisted of Prests. Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdry (sic) (p. 70) and myself. Next morning at New Portage, he noticed that Joseph seemed to have a far off look in his eyes, or was looking at a distance, and presently he, Joseph, stepped between Brothers Cowdry (sic), and Coltrin and taking them by the arm, said, "lets take a walk." They went to a place where there was some beautiful grass, and grapevines and swampbeech interlaced. President Joseph Smith than (sic) said, "Let us pray." They all three prayed in turn--Joseph, Oliver, and Zebedee. Bro. Joseph than (sic) said, "now brethren (sic) we will see some visions." Joseph lay down on the ground on his back and stretched out his arms and the two brethren lay on them. The heavens gradually opened, and they saw a golden throne, on a circular foundation, something like a light house, and on the throne were two aged personages, having white hair, and clothed in white garments. They were the two most beautiful and perfect specimens of mankind he ever saw. Joseph said, They are our first parents, Adam and Eve. Adam was a large broadshouldered man, and Eve as a woman, was as large in proportion."

I'm interested in hearing how a Mormon who does not believe in a literal Adam and Eve deals with these quotes.

Visions are often granted and interpreted through symbols in accordance with one's subjective understanding, in order to teach one the key principal at hand.

For example, the Temple Endowment is an example of a vision. We 'see' Adam, but understand that the journey being represented is ours. Adam is a symbol that ties into the traditions and expectations we have surrounding that powerful symbol and the stories associated with it.

[Questing Beast]

I believe there is at least one Adam and Eve who began the family of man who lived within the covenant of God. There may be others who fulfilled other roles relating to mankind, so I would say that they are both literal and figurative. They don't have to one or the other as one can demonstrate by pointing to historical, but also mythological individuals such as George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King John, etc. where the individual has come to stand for something more than what he actually was, achieving a symbolic and therefore figurative nature as well as a historical one.

Your use of "mythological" is incorrect (and this is a minor pet peeve of mine): A mythical/mythological anything has no provenance. What you really mean is "legendary". Legendary status includes the exaggerations and even made up details that cause the legendary person to become larger than real life. A person can become a legend in their own time. Joseph Smith was legendary before he was killed. So was Brigham Young. Nobody in American history is mythological/mythical....

[altersteve]

All I know is that LDS theology requires that a man named Adam and a woman named Eve really existed on this earth. That's all I really care about.

[Ron Beron]

Recent studies have shown that most humans have remnants of Neanderthal DNA, for what it's worth.

Certainly, some more than others....take the Oakland Raiders for example.

[Ron Beron]

Your use of "mythological" is incorrect (and this is a minor pet peeve of mine): A mythical/mythological anything has no provenance. What you really mean is "legendary". Legendary status includes the exaggerations and even made up details that cause the legendary person to become larger than real life. A person can become a legend in their own time. Joseph Smith was legendary before he was killed. So was Brigham Young. Nobody in American history is mythological/mythical....

Mythological doesn't necessarily mean fiction or having a lack of provenance, but rather it is a different means of interpreting the situations as they occurred without the expertise to relate them in modern terms. As I posted elsewhere recently, legend argues a narrative between hearer and teller that takes place within history and contains elements of truth and possibility. Myth, on the other hand, is a

"a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. " dictionary.com

Given this definition many events and personalities within U.S. history can be considered mythological yet unlikely so given the relative modernity of the reporting of the events.

Ancient matters, however, are a different situation. As I stated primitive and less than sophisticated reporting often have reported actual events in mythological guises. In their book, " When They Severed Earth from Sky: How the Human Mind Shapes Myth by Barber and Weylandstate,

Quite simply, before writing, myths had to serve as transmission systems for information deemed important; but because we--now that we have writing--have forgotten how nonliterate people stored and transmitted information and why it was done that way, we have lost track of how to decode the information often densely compressed in these stories, and they appear to us as most gibberish. And so we often dismiss them as silly or try to interpret them with psychobabble. As folklorist Adrienne Mayor points out, classicists in particular “tend to read myths as fictional literature, not as natural history”--not least because humanist typically don’t study sciences like geology, palaeontology, and astronomy, and so don’t recognize the data.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Ron Beron

[Robert F. Smith]

Your use of "mythological" is incorrect (and this is a minor pet peeve of mine): A mythical/mythological anything has no provenance. What you really mean is "legendary". Legendary status includes the exaggerations and even made up details that cause the legendary person to become larger than real life. A person can become a legend in their own time. Joseph Smith was legendary before he was killed. So was Brigham Young. Nobody in American history is mythological/mythical....

You might want to examine C. S. Lewis' use of the term "myth," as in the "true myth" of Jesus Christ as the typical and actual dying and rising god of the ancient world. See http://thinkingreed.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/lewis-on-the-true-myth-of-redemption/ .

Moreover, Elder Packer has used the word "symbolic" quite often when speaking of LDS temple rites, as in his Feb 1995 Ensign article "The Holy Temple," online at http://lds.org/ensign/print/1995/02/the-holy-temple?lang=eng&clang=eng .

[thesometimesaint]

nackhadlow.

True, but I don't see how that makes the neanderthals Homos Sapiens Sapiens(us), at best they would be Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis.

Also about 80% of every living organism's DNA goes to just how an individual cell operates.

[BCSpace]

Could we be adopted into the family of Adam in the same sense that we are adopted into the house of Israel?

It seems we are stuck posting Adam over a million years ago or if saying that he was ~6000 years ago that there large numbers of humans that are not descendants of Adam.

Either way, does this make the fall figurative as well? I am having trouble with this not unravelling much of Mormon doctrine.

Since I accept evolution as not being in conflict with LDS doctrine, depending on how things Fall out (pun intended), say, a local or a global garden state, being adopted into the family of Adam physically could be a better fit. For example, once the Fall occurs, spirit children of God begin to be born everywhere there are preAdamite homo sapiens.

[Ahab]

Could we be adopted into the family of Adam in the same sense that we are adopted into the house of Israel?

It seems we are stuck posting Adam over a million years ago or if saying that he was ~6000 years ago that there large numbers of humans that are not descendants of Adam.

Either way, does this make the fall figurative as well? I am having trouble with this not unravelling much of Mormon doctrine.

What makes you think Israel is figurative?

Israel is the name of a person, and when we are adopted into the house/tribe/nation of Israel we're being adopted as that person's child, who himself is the child of someone else, with all of us being blessed by the Lord.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Ahab