Does God Speak Through Lds Prophets And Apostles?

[CV75]

It seems President Uchtdorf is specifically speaking AGAINST the common apologist argument. Is this problematic? How on earth do you know which teachings should be followed (as being from God) and which should be discounted (as merely personal opinion).

No. Elder Uchtdorf is not saying that everything a prophet says is of God and not that prophet's opinion. These two lines help see this:

"Nevertheless, there are messages in each general conference given as a gift and a blessing from heaven specifically for our personal life situations.

In preparation for general conference, let me suggest three basic concepts that may help us to better receive, remember, and apply the words spoken by the Lord’s servants."

If we "receive, remember, and apply the words spoken by the Lord’s servants" by the Spirit, then we can rest assured that what we receive, remember, and apply are indeed of God. We can prepare ourselves to do this well.

[Ahab]

Often, in a wide range of subjects, the common apologetic response to an issue that an older prophet has said, is that the prophet is merely speaking as a Man, and it is not God speaking.

What makes you think a person who says something like that is a true "apologetic" for our Lord's doctrine rather than someone who is only speaking as a man, himself?

The way to know whether or not something is true and good, or not, is to ask God and accept his answer even if other people don't agree with what God has said.

This has always been rather problematic. For example, Joseph F. Smith taught that Evolution was just flat out wrong, and weighed in heavily from the pulpit on the subject (even an official First Presidency statement was written).

What makes what he said a problem? The fact that not everybody in the Church agrees with what he said?

When anyone says anything you should ask God to help you to know whether or not what that person is saying is true, and ultimately you need to rely upon God's answer more than anyone elses.

This is often discounted as his personal opinion, and not commanded from God. However, I stumbled across something interesting today.

Dieter Uchtdorf gives this 'First Presidency Message' in relation to preparing for the next General Conference of the Church:

...

It seems President Uchtdorf is specifically speaking AGAINST the common apologist argument.

Uh huh.

Is this problematic?

Not for me.

How on earth do you know which teachings should be followed (as being from God) and which should be discounted (as merely personal opinion).

By asking God for his answer rather than accepting what any ole "apologist" may tell you based on whether or not you like what he has said.

We're supposed to be disciples of Jesus Christ, don't ya know, and to be one we have follow what Jesus Christ says about how to follow God.

[Questing Beast]

"Does God Speak Through Lds Prophets And Apostles?"

Yes.

But that does not exclude every other "voice" that "God" speaks with. Imho, "God" speaks through creation: All of it: All of us....

[Ahab]

I'll offer another problem:

Prayer won't work to answer which doctrines are of God and which ones are not, either.

Bull pucky. Praying involves receiving answers from God, and God can assuredly tell you which doctrines are of God and which ones are not.

The fact that you're saying prayer doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work. It only means you say it doesn't work, and I know from personal experience that it does.

God's revelations to you as an individual (who is not a GA) can NOT confirm that the words of the prophets are correct since to do so would be to receive revelation that is for the whole Church which (if we believe you only receive revelation to those under your authority) is against the commonly stated 'rules'.

That makes about as much sense as saying that when someone receives revelation from the President of the Church they're not receiving revelation that pertains to the whole Church.

Would you like to take another stab at trying to correctly understand our Lord's doctrine?

[Ahab]

"Does God Speak Through Lds Prophets And Apostles?"

Yes.

But that does not exclude every other "voice" that "God" speaks with. Imho, "God" speaks through creation: All of it: All of us....

He speaks through us only when what we say is true and good, though. Credit for all of the false stuff some of us say should be given to someone else.

[thesometimesaint]

1. God doesn't turn anyone, including Prophets, into sock puppets.

2. Each and everyone of us is responsible for our own beliefs.

3. No one on this message board is The Prophet.

[Eldwynn]

I think the number one answer is "Just ask god". Well last night I tried it, and didn't hear anything. I guess I should just keep trying right? I did have a dream that Stephen Hawking was talking about black holes, and then all the sudden the earth was swallowed BY a black hole (I think it's because I was reading "The Universe in a Nutshell" before bed, but maybe its a call for repentance?).

Oh and going down the "Will god speak to you checklist":

1) I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything

2) I don't consume caffeine (except chocolate... very occasionally)

3) I have read my scriptures

4) I only am intimate with my legally wedded wife

5) I have read the scriptures.

In all seriousness, you guys say "ask god" like its so easy. Sure it's easy to ask, but not easy to get an answer, and even if you DO get some vague life experience or something, who is to say that's an answer from god?

Furthermore, when something like Evolution came around, and Joseph F Smith became consumed in his writings against it, do you NOT THINK that he was praying about it every night? Do you really not think that he was inspired by God to write a book that is filled end to end with just bad reasoning? Where was god there (and in similar instances)?

In short, I think "asking god" is just a lazy answer, that really won't answer the question. Because the bottom line is this: I am asking questions that really apply to a religion as a whole. Even if I were to pray, and tell you that Jesus came down and told me that Mormonism was wrong- you guys would obviously object to this, and maybe even call me schizophrenic. However, when someone much younger than I am does it, and it's in the 1800's, and poorly documented.... you worship him as a prophet.

Go figure.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Eldwynn

[Maidservant]

To start off, to answer the title line of the thread, or to rephrase the question: WHERE and WHEN does God speak "through", and do the Prophets and Apostles partake of the reality of God's voice? I turn to Matthew 5:8 for some perception on this. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." To me, this means that if we prepare ourselves, then we will be able to know God in any way he is speaking, whether it is through a little sprout coming up in your garden, maybe some civil discourse, maybe through our spouses . . . God is a guy who has a lot to say, and it comes from every where.

Of course, the priesthood organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes a specific claim of officially representing Jesus Christ and being the mouthpiece of Jesus Christ, at least in terms of an official organization with authority, and the gateway to (full) eternal potential (erstwhile termed salvation). So it is proper to evaluate that claim for oneself.

Obviously you've made your decision, and I've made mine. I have no need to convince you otherwise on your decision if you are satisfied with your life.

Often, in a wide range of subjects, the common apologetic response to an issue that an older prophet has said, is that the prophet is merely speaking as a Man, and it is not God speaking.

This has always been rather problematic. For example, Joseph F. Smith taught that Evolution was just flat out wrong, and weighed in heavily from the pulpit on the subject (even an official First Presidency statement was written).

This is often discounted as his personal opinion, and not commanded from God. However, I stumbled across something interesting today.

Dieter Uchtdorf gives this 'First Presidency Message' in relation to preparing for the next General Conference of the Church:

It seems President Uchtdorf is specifically speaking AGAINST the common apologist argument. Is this problematic? How on earth do you know which teachings should be followed (as being from God) and which should be discounted (as merely personal opinion).

Using President Uchtdorf's counsel as the pivot example to illustrate your principle is not the best way to go about this. You already KNOW the answer I could give (and as has been replied already by others) as to HOW revelation works in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You are not really confused on the process, I don't think. You could phrase for me as well as I can how Latter-day Saints experience the environment of revelation and of how they go about making choices in their lives in relationship to what they hear from prophets, and how they view prophets (what they are, what they can and cannot do, what their purpose is). You know what it means to have a living church, that is, that there are GOING to be things that change. I think you are a perceptive enough gentleman to be able to do this. You may disagree, but I think you've been hearing from us enough that you know how it works, and that LDS people generally approach faith with complexity, rather than with the flat, childhood-ish binaries that are often set up in questions (I am always put in mind of how some want to talk to us on our religion as if they--and we--were reading from a "Run, Jane, Run" elementary school reader, when we are trying to answer them with something on the order of Gould's The Structure of Evolutionary Theory [which is a hilarious by the way, but you have to read through 4 pages in order to get to the delicious twist of wit that comes at the end]).

Disagree, fine. Pretend not to understand how a person of faith engages just fine with some complexities, ambiguities, human realities? That doesn't make sense to me in terms of the discourse we could have.

I'll offer another problem:

Prayer won't work to answer which doctrines are of God and which ones are not, either. God's revelations to you as an individual (who is not a GA) can NOT confirm that the words of the prophets are correct since to do so would be to receive revelation that is for the whole Church which (if we believe you only receive revelation to those under your authority) is against the commonly stated 'rules'.

What I said to Eldwynn.

The viability of past general authority statements as revelations from God depend on how well they correlate with the current positions held by the church...whatever that may be.........see? Easy......

What I said to Eldwynn.

(to follow up on my previous post, here is a better version of the argument)

P1. You can't receive revelation the content of which is binding upon the whole Church.

P2. Asking whether the truth value of a revelation given by the GAs (or any authority higher than you are, also) is "true" or "false" is to ask for information the result of which (that is, whether it is "true" or "false") will be binding upon the whole Church.

C: You can't receive revelation the content of which is whether a given revelation given by the GAs is "true" or "false".

Repeat.

If a homosexual prayed and received a felling that God wanted him to marry a man and be happy, would you reject his answer?

What any human being gets as guidance from God is not my business to accept or reject. Each person's opportunity, privilege and responsibility to choose their course in life is sacred. If a friend of mine share with me an experience such as this, I would most likely accept it at face value and rejoice with them on their relationship/conversation with God, and I would support them in their choices. If they asked my advice, I might share some concerns and my beliefs on the subject. If they did not ask my advice, I would never. But in the end, my friend's happiness is my happiness.

are placed on a pedestal like an idol. They are above any legitimate controversy.

I remain convinced that the Lord's church will not progress spiritually until it allows legitimate dissent over the leadership.

Richard

While I accept that this is your experience, and you should definitely follow your conscience, I have to say that my experience of "following the prophet" does not inevitably--or, ever, really--become experienced as "placing them on a pedestal". If I did, I would probably also reject that experience, as you have done. I should say that I quite often make different decisions than counsel made by general AND local church leaders, mostly due to the nature of my personal circumstances where I have to apply truth or rules to what is really happening with me and my family. My progression is between me and my Father. When my Father has something to teach me, quite often (but not always) I will be directed to the words, counsels and policies of prophets and the church . . . since it's all there, somewhere. But I cannot be harmed by any mistakes they may have made, since I am able to make these personal decisions by the spirit between myself and my father.

I should also mention there has been more than one occasion where I have flat out told God to his face: "You are dead wrong." These conversations with Him are usually very productive and spiritual since they start from a place of pure honesty on my part and on His.

I think many people knew the policy of the Church regarding priesthood ordination was incorrect. Many of the apostles felt it was prior to 1978. One of my favorite leaders, H. B. Brown, knew it was. However, the Church had to wait until the prophet and each apostle felt the same way before the policy was changed.

An instance of telling God he is wrong. Except . . . is it us waiting for God to get it right? Or God waiting for us to get it right? Ha ha. God did not so much "reveal" the better priesthood way, as President Kimball petitioned the Lord until that answer was given. I don't think President Kimball was prepared to quit on that.

The cynical or non-LDS explanation on that would be that of course, God isn't talking to LDS prophets at all, and President Kimball just changed with the times on the level of humanity or politics. That's a disagreement between points of view that we simply aren't going to convince each other on.

I envisage it as an intense beam of light that has depth and breadth. We may touch the outside of the light and we can plunge our hand firmly into the light. In doing so, we learn eternal truths and learn of the mysterious of God.

What I know for certain is that nothing is withheld from us except that which we cannot bear at present. Being a prophet or an apostle is to wear a mantle; these are callings to preside over the Church. They do not signify they have become the revealers of all truth to the Church by any stretch of the imagination.

While I haven't thought on it with a grand unifed theory, I too imagine that all that is truth is just ALL THERE already, and the process of ascending is simply to become 100 percent accessible to it. Thus, if you have that pure heart a la Matthew 5, then there is hardly a thing that God could HIDE from you . . . if there was any "voice" of God saying anything you would "hear" it. This also has nothing to do even with being a member of the church.

The thing is, as you say, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a specific purpose in the earth. It is the gate . . . the beginning, not the end. It is a refuge for safety. It is the only authorized place to get covenants. So on and so forth.

Ignore the apologists!

Absolutely!! Ha ha! 100 percent agree!!! There is very little spirit here on this board, in my experience, for one thing. Apologists are not the dispensers of truth. We have some insight and explanation that will help the person who actually has questions, or who is open to sharing and ecumenical experience, but will not help anyone already possessed of answers, nor will we ever actually win any arguments. You can get closer to God (and understanding of Mormonism) by reading the Study by Topic blurbs on lds.org than by any post on this board.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Maidservant

[Storm Rider]

I think the number one answer is "Just ask god". Well last night I tried it, and didn't hear anything. I guess I should just keep trying right? I did have a dream that Stephen Hawking was talking about black holes, and then all the sudden the earth was swallowed BY a black hole (I think it's because I was reading "The Universe in a Nutshell" before bed, but maybe its a call for repentance?).

Oh and going down the "Will god speak to you checklist":

1) I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything

2) I don't consume caffeine (except chocolate... very occasionally)

3) I have read my scriptures

4) I only am intimate with my legally wedded wife

5) I have read the scriptures.

Are you of the impression that God answers at your beck and call and in your time frame? God often speaks to us when we are at our lowest in worthiness; worthiness aids in the accompaniment of the Holy Spriit, but does not rush God to answer your prayer. Did you think otherwise?

God is not like rubbing a genie bottle and he pops out to do your bidding. God is the author and finisher of all salvation for each of us. He seeks to mold us into being a reflection of his likeness in all things. What do you think is required of us as God is going about this in our lives?

[Maidservant]

I think the number one answer is "Just ask god". Well last night I tried it, and didn't hear anything. I guess I should just keep trying right?

No. Be satisfied, and live by the answer you got. Are you missing anything still? If not, be at peace.

I did have a dream that Stephen Hawking was talking about black holes, and then all the sudden the earth was swallowed BY a black hole (I think it's because I was reading "The Universe in a Nutshell" before bed, but maybe its a call for repentance?).

waaaaay awesome!! ha ha

Oh and going down the "Will god speak to you checklist":

1) I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything

2) I don't consume caffeine (except chocolate... very occasionally)

3) I have read my scriptures

4) I only am intimate with my legally wedded wife

5) I have read the scriptures.

Then what more do you need?

In all seriousness, you guys say "ask god" like its so easy. Sure it's easy to ask, but not easy to get an answer, and even if you DO get some vague life experience or something, who is to say that's an answer from god? . . . In short, I think "asking god" is just a lazy answer, that really won't answer the question.

Well, I think both "sides" have the trouble of "dumbing down" the other person's answer experiences. As you say, the fact is, as human beings and seekers of truth, we all have a legitimate struggle, whatever the results.

Because the bottom line is this: I am asking questions that really apply to a religion as a whole. Even if I were to pray, and tell you that Jesus came down and told me that Mormonism was wrong- you guys would obviously object to this, and maybe even call me schizophrenic. However, when someone much younger than I am does it, and it's in the 1800's, and poorly documented.... you worship him as a prophet.

Go figure.

Ha ha. Cute. And touche'. But, see, the difference, um, might be . . . please DO tell me when that happens. You can't tell me that yet, because it hasn't happened. Joseph Smith told us something as soon as it happened. Wasn't hypothetical. Everyone else who brings up an analogy like that is talking hypothetical. When it really happens, tell me.

Then I'll evaluate your claim.

[Maidservant]

God often speaks to us when we are at our lowest in worthiness

I can attest to this.

[TAO]

I think the number one answer is "Just ask god". Well last night I tried it, and didn't hear anything. I guess I should just keep trying right? I did have a dream that Stephen Hawking was talking about black holes, and then all the sudden the earth was swallowed BY a black hole (I think it's because I was reading "The Universe in a Nutshell" before bed, but maybe its a call for repentance?).

Oh and going down the "Will god speak to you checklist":

1) I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything

2) I don't consume caffeine (except chocolate... very occasionally)

3) I have read my scriptures

4) I only am intimate with my legally wedded wife

5) I have read the scriptures.

In all seriousness, you guys say "ask god" like its so easy. Sure it's easy to ask, but not easy to get an answer, and even if you DO get some vague life experience or something, who is to say that's an answer from god?

If it was easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile. It takes work. Sometimes for me, it takes multiple times of asking, especially when I don't understand something well. It is like getting on your knees and asking for an answer. We are all beggars, and we have to be that humble, and prepared, to receive an answer. He won't give it to us if we aren't ready, or if it is not the right time. Sometimes he won't give it to us even if we aren't willing to consider all the things in his answer. Willingness is huge... and though I can't tell why you don't get answers... that is something that you and God need to work out. Make sure you are in the right mood, before talking to him... and listen. That is all I can say from the mistakes I have made =).

Furthermore, when something like Evolution came around, and Joseph F Smith became consumed in his writings against it, do you NOT THINK that he was praying about it every night? Do you really not think that he was inspired by God to write a book that is filled end to end with just bad reasoning? Where was god there (and in similar instances)?

This is why I said it is pointless to worry about the revelations of others. The revelations were not meant for you; so you should not worry about it.

Seeing as how the thought of evolution has effected things today (despite in some good ways, in bad ways also), I think I can justify Joseph F Smith, in any case. He had a point - it would effect things. I haven't read his book of course, so I can't affirm how it is; but in any case, evolution has changed many viewpoints in the world, imo.

In short, I think "asking god" is just a lazy answer, that really won't answer the question. Because the bottom line is this: I am asking questions that really apply to a religion as a whole. Even if I were to pray, and tell you that Jesus came down and told me that Mormonism was wrong- you guys would obviously object to this, and maybe even call me schizophrenic. However, when someone much younger than I am does it, and it's in the 1800's, and poorly documented.... you worship him as a prophet.

Nah... it's not a lazy answer. It is a truthful answer. The verse in Alma says to pray in your closets, and your fields, and your secret places. And to have your heart always drawn out in prayer unto him. To pray always; that you may not faint. This is the right answer, Edlwynn. You must pray for your answer, you must seek the answer yourself, or otherwise, you will have no reason to believe it. Others say conflicting things, but only the answer you receive from God can be confirmed. Even if you can't show it is from God to others, it is the best you have. That is why the spirit is so important - because it is the only way we can determine what is the truth, from what is not. But, at the same time, we cannot force our truth on others; they must feel it for themselves. The prophets and apostles, are those who have the capability to receive revelation for the church, but not us, we cannot use it to tell the church to do things.

Best Wishes, and I hope you get your answers.

-TAO

[Eldwynn]

Are you of the impression that God answers at your beck and call and in your time frame? God often speaks to us when we are at our lowest in worthiness; worthiness aids in the accompaniment of the Holy Spriit, but does not rush God to answer your prayer. Did you think otherwise?

God is not like rubbing a genie bottle and he pops out to do your bidding. God is the author and finisher of all salvation for each of us. He seeks to mold us into being a reflection of his likeness in all things. What do you think is required of us as God is going about this in our lives?

If god exists, no I wouldn't expect to be on his time frame. However, sometime in the first 20 years of my life would be nice. The fundamental question of this all, is how long should I stay in the church, without having an answer? Given that the church could be FALSE (and thus, the scriptures people are quoting are rather irrelevant), then it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue to participate (including financially) if I haven't received an answer as Moroni promised.

If God wants to wait another 20 years, then by all means, he can wait. However, I think its a safer bet to not participate until he does (I started another thread on this topic).

[Deborah]

I am reminded of what we read in Enos:

2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins....4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

I wonder how many people have that kind of sincerity and desire. I think the point of Enos isn't necessarily that we must wrestle day and night without ceasing, but that it was a process that required work and that isn't done in one easy step. Many of my prayers haven't been answered at the time but have come as I have studied and pondered scriptures, and occasionally, through the words of someone else whether in church or from a complete stranger in the laundromat. But when the answers come I know as clear as day that they are an answer to the very prayer I had and that person is speaking directly to me. Angels come in all sorts of disguises.

One can't pray for an answer and then go about doing that which is not in accordance with the commandments. Attending church, daily prayer and scripture study, giving service are all a part of how we receive answers, which often come in the most unexpected moments.

[Storm Rider]

If god exists, no I wouldn't expect to be on his time frame. However, sometime in the first 20 years of my life would be nice. The fundamental question of this all, is how long should I stay in the church, without having an answer? Given that the church could be FALSE (and thus, the scriptures people are quoting are rather irrelevant), then it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue to participate (including financially) if I haven't received an answer as Moroni promised.

If God wants to wait another 20 years, then by all means, he can wait. However, I think its a safer bet to not participate until he does (I started another thread on this topic).

I try to live my life in faith; trying and failing to be a man of God. However, for the sake of discussion, let us assume the Church of Jesus Christ is false. Can you explain to me how you would be harmed by being a member? Do you know of another church that is true?

Your premise is that you would be harmed in some way; if you are not, then there is no position to take in your argument.

I have found in the lives of many LDS that those who grow up in the Church did not have a conversion event. Instead they learned line upon line, slowing gaining a testimony. Then sometime in their late teens to early twenties they wake up yearning for the burning bush, the great spiritual event that they feel they lost or were denied. When I was a young man I felt the same as you express now. I was determined to have the spiritual manifestation. One long weekend I left for the woods. I began to fast, read the Book of Mormon, play a guitar, and contemplate about spiritual matters. After three days I received my answer. It went something like this, could you be any more stupid, Michael? How many times of you felt the Spirit? How many times have you felt my Spirit? Quit pestering me over things you already know are true.

Needless to say I felt sheepishly because I know the truth of it. I had known the Book of Mormon was true for years; the testimony was built slowly and surely and was not found in a single, spiritual manifestation. Many converts experience that caliber of conversion while others learn it slowly. Is one better than the other? Does one guarantee that we will maintain faith and endure to the end? I think not.

You know your own life; you know the times when the Lord has spoken to you. If you are looking for your burning bush you may be looking for a long time. When you do find it I suspect you will find that you knew the truth of it all along.

[elguanteloko]

If it was easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile.

Oh, so now it has to not be easy to be worthwhile, right?

LOL jk, friend.

[TAO]

Oh, so now it has to not be easy to be worthwhile, right?

LOL jk, friend.

Nah, that's a good point. There is some easy worthwhile things. They just tend to be nowhere near as worthwhile as the hard ones XD.

[Ahab]

I think the number one answer is "Just ask god". Well last night I tried it, and didn't hear anything. I guess I should just keep trying right? I did have a dream that Stephen Hawking was talking about black holes, and then all the sudden the earth was swallowed BY a black hole (I think it's because I was reading "The Universe in a Nutshell" before bed, but maybe its a call for repentance?).

Oh and going down the "Will god speak to you checklist":

1) I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything

2) I don't consume caffeine (except chocolate... very occasionally)

3) I have read my scriptures

4) I only am intimate with my legally wedded wife

5) I have read the scriptures.

In all seriousness, you guys say "ask god" like its so easy. Sure it's easy to ask, but not easy to get an answer, and even if you DO get some vague life experience or something, who is to say that's an answer from god?

Furthermore, when something like Evolution came around, and Joseph F Smith became consumed in his writings against it, do you NOT THINK that he was praying about it every night? Do you really not think that he was inspired by God to write a book that is filled end to end with just bad reasoning? Where was god there (and in similar instances)?

In short, I think "asking god" is just a lazy answer, that really won't answer the question. Because the bottom line is this: I am asking questions that really apply to a religion as a whole. Even if I were to pray, and tell you that Jesus came down and told me that Mormonism was wrong- you guys would obviously object to this, and maybe even call me schizophrenic. However, when someone much younger than I am does it, and it's in the 1800's, and poorly documented.... you worship him as a prophet.

Go figure.

The basic idea we're trying to get across to you, I think, is that you should rely on what God tells YOU over and above what anyone else will tell you.

Even if you were to say God told you something which all of us would not agree with, you should be saying God told you something only when you know or feel sure it was God who told you that, and therefore you should rely on what God told you over and above what anyone else told you, or will tell you.

This "test" is not a popularity contest. This test is a real life experience of who you would and will rely on if put on a planet to do whatever you want to do while thinking whatever you want to think.

I say go with God, rather than any other of the available choices, because in the end what will matter is how you lived your life and what caused you to live it that way.

[keith_brian]

No. Be satisfied, and live by the answer you got. Are you missing anything still? If not, be at peace.

waaaaay awesome!! ha ha

Then what more do you need?

Well, I think both "sides" have the trouble of "dumbing down" the other person's answer experiences. As you say, the fact is, as human beings and seekers of truth, we all have a legitimate struggle, whatever the results.

Ha ha. Cute. And touche'. But, see, the difference, um, might be . . . please DO tell me when that happens. You can't tell me that yet, because it hasn't happened. Joseph Smith told us something as soon as it happened. Wasn't hypothetical. Everyone else who brings up an analogy like that is talking hypothetical. When it really happens, tell me.

Then I'll evaluate your claim.

Zeus and Apollo appeared to me last night and told me that I should join none of the churches on the earth because they were all wrong. Will you follow the council of Zeus on this matter?

[Nathair/|\]

Zeus and Apollo appeared to me last night and told me that I should join none of the churches on the earth because they were all wrong. Will you follow the council of Zeus on this matter?

Nah, Zeus and his kin are jerks. An Dagda Mòr and Odin got my back.

[Ares]

Zeus and Apollo appeared to me last night and told me that I should join none of the churches on the earth because they were all wrong. Will you follow the council of Zeus on this matter?

Do something besides mocking others beliefs. You are excused from this thread.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I'll offer another problem:

Prayer won't work to answer which doctrines are of God and which ones are not, either. God's revelations to you as an individual (who is not a GA) can NOT confirm that the words of the prophets are correct since to do so would be to receive revelation that is for the whole Church which (if we believe you only receive revelation to those under your authority) is against the commonly stated 'rules'.

Wrong.

[Maidservant]

Zeus and Apollo appeared to me last night and told me that I should join none of the churches on the earth because they were all wrong. Will you follow the council of Zeus on this matter?

I see you got excused, so I guess you can PM me if this is that important. But is this the truth? Will you tell me it is the truth? Did that happen?

[seriously honestly]

My friend, I cannot tell what he felt, so I can only go on what I felt. Likewise, he cannot feel what I have felt, so my answer would not be effective.

Nonetheless, I have been told it is not the way it is meant to be, which is a good enough answer for me. So yes, I would say it is wrong. But I am not sure he would listen for the same reason I would not listen to him; because we don't know each others' feelings.

That is why the spirit is the base of it all. From that, you build to the priesthood; to trusting the prophets and apostles. For that reason, you will be utterly responsible for your actions, which means you have to be careful. Mistakes can be deadly. Unfortunately, because we can't feel what others feel, we often trust our own feelings over what they say theirs are.

So despite what God has said on the matter, as long as he has prayed and his feelings tell him it's ok to be with another man, you would be ok with his choice and not try to refute it (because you feel your answer would "not be effective)?

[Avatar4321]

Yes they do. Anyone can speak for God if they recieve the Spirit. The problem is many people don't even try.