Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 One of the most impressive things I have ever witnessed was when the Church eliminated an “offering”, as it did many years ago…building budget; I believe.Does anyone here know of any Church in the world who has told members not to contribute money? This is a powerful declaration to me, I know of no Pastor or Church Leadership of any Church turning away money. If I am wrong, could someone give me a CFR of any other? The only exception was a recent building project the Church had. Some may see this a minor thing; I do not.
Questing Beast Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I pay attention to this too. The LDS Church's attitude toward money is one of the more impressive things about it. I do not know of its equal anywhere, as you point out....
Doctor Steuss Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) One of the most impressive things I have ever witnessed was when the Church eliminated an “offering”, as it did many years ago…building budget; I believe.Does anyone here know of any Church in the world who has told members not to contribute money? This is a powerful declaration to me, I know of no Pastor or Church Leadership of any Church turning away money. If I am wrong, could someone give me a CFR of any other? The only exception was a recent building project the Church had. Some may see this a minor thing; I do not.Last year, my friend's church not only told its members not to contribute money, it actually gave everyone in the congregation money ($100 to each individual over the age of 18, and IIRC, $10 to each individual between 10-17). Edited September 13, 2011 by Doctor Steuss
BCSpace Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 In order to build a new Stake Center in the 1970's, my parents were asked to contribute an additional $900, twice in as many years. A weighty sum in those days for a growing middle class family with seven kids.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 Last year, my friend's church not only told its members not to contribute money, it actually gave everyone in the congregation money ($100 to each individual over the age of 18, and IIRC, $10 to each individual between 10-17).That is wonderful. Good for them, I hope the well off refused the money.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 In order to build a new Stake Center in the 1970's, my parents were asked to contribute an additional $900, twice in as many years. A weighty sum in those days for a growing middle class family with seven kids.I do understand that before their current financial footing (no building code pun intended) this was the case. I enjoy greatly the nice buildings, Historic sites and air conditioning (above all) that adds to the comfort I enjoy each week. I am willing to pay for it. BTW the Historic Sites have the cleanest pubic bathrooms I have ever seen.
HeatherAnn Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) If our government tried to hide income & expenditures (which it may)... wouldn't it bother you?We regularly vote on many things, including the "church financial reports" during conference... yet we have no idea what we're voting on. lolIMO, The church has a very dysfunctional relationship in dealing with money & members.Tithing is supposed to be an OFFERING from our hearts, not a socially forced OBLIGATION (extortion?).And tithing is supposed to be for GOD's work... in feeding & clothing the poor.. not profiting from malls, businesses or Universities.The greatest of all commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.As we love others, we love God.Considering the poverty world-wide, the tithing that the church collects should be MUCH better applied in this priority.As we do, or don't do for others, we do or don't do for God."Thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow... shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29 Edited September 13, 2011 by HeatherAnn
Ares Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 If our government tried to hide income & expenditures (which it may)... wouldn't it bother you?We regularly vote on many things, including the "church financial reports" during conference... yet we have no idea what we're voting on. lolIMO, The church has a very dysfunctional relationship in dealing with money & members.Tithing is supposed to be an OFFERING from our hearts, not an socially forced OBLIGATION (extortion?).And tithing is supposed to be for GOD's work... in feeding & clothing the poor.. not profiting from malls, businesses or Universities.The greatest of all commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.As we love others, we love God.Considering the poverty world-wide, the tithing that the church collects should be MUCH better applied in this priority.As we do, or don't do for others, we do or don't do for God."Thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow... shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29This thread is about tithes and offerings practices of various churches. Start another if you want to criticize the LDS church and affiliated organizations accounting and purchasing practices.
Zakuska Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) If our government tried to hide income & expenditures (which it may)... wouldn't it bother you?We regularly vote on many things, including the "church financial reports" during conference... yet we have no idea what we're voting on. lolIMO, The church has a very dysfunctional relationship in dealing with money & members.Tithing is supposed to be an OFFERING from our hearts, not a socially forced OBLIGATION (extortion?).And tithing is supposed to be for GOD's work... in feeding & clothing the poor.. not profiting from malls, businesses or Universities.The greatest of all commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.As we love others, we love God.Considering the poverty world-wide, the tithing that the church collects should be MUCH better applied in this priority.As we do, or don't do for others, we do or don't do for God."Thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow... shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29It seems to me that quite a lot of tithing and offerings were spent on building great spacious palaces, universities, shoping malls and public works all around Jerusalem by some pretty great men in the Scriptures.David and Solomon are two notable examples. Edited September 13, 2011 by Zakuska
Doctor Steuss Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Good for them, I hope the well off refused the money.I thought it was pretty amazing. The stipulation was that each person wasn't allowed to spend the money on themselves.A few weeks after they were given the money, my friend and his wife were approached by a woman in a grocery store parking lot who had just been thrown out/locked out of her boyfriend’s house (she had two kids and a baby with her). My friend and his wife were able to buy her groceries, baby food, some clean socks/undies/clothes and give her enough money for gas to get her to SafeNest.I'm sure a lot of people's lives were touched by the pastor redistributing the surplus funds back to the congregation. My friend was fairly new to the congregation and I haven’t talked to him in a while, so I don’t know if this is a yearly thing, or was just a one-time thing. All I know is the two of them were lapsed-Catholics, looking to try to rekindle their Christian light, and this Church's gesture did that for them. Sorry, for the long post/reply. Just sitting here remembering how stoked he was about having found a church for him and his young family, and how happy I was to see him finally find some peace after all the hardships he had faced in his life.Now you got me feeling all nostalgic in general (must be one of those days). Edited September 13, 2011 by Doctor Steuss 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 It seems to me that quite a lot of tithing and offerings were spent on building great spacious palaces, universities, shoping malls and public works all around Jerusalem by some pretty great men in the Scriptures.David and Solomon are two notable examples.Not to mention it is very hard to "hide" those things. BTW HeatherAnn, is is voluntary, unlike Gov't and taxes, they cannot force any to pay, and have eliminated some offerings.
cinepro Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) One of the most impressive things I have ever witnessed was when the Church eliminated an “offering”, as it did many years ago…building budget; I believe.Does anyone here know of any Church in the world who has told members not to contribute money? This is a powerful declaration to me, I know of no Pastor or Church Leadership of any Church turning away money. If I am wrong, could someone give me a CFR of any other? The only exception was a recent building project the Church had. Some may see this a minor thing; I do not.I'm not sure what you're saying here. In addition to the 10% of tithing, we are asked to pay fast offerings, and given the option to contribute to local and general missionary funds, humanitarian aid, Temple construction, the perpetual education fund, and in case they missed something, "other".I suspect there are at least a few other churches with fewer ledger lines on their donation slips. Edited September 13, 2011 by cinepro
HeatherAnn Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) It seems to me that quite a lot of tithing and offerings were spent on building great spacious palaces, universities, shoping malls and public works all around Jerusalem by some pretty great men in the Scriptures.David and Solomon are two notable examples. Yes, Notable.David did not see himself worthy (or was it God claiming that) to build a temple, after all of his war killing etc.Solomon did not build "The Temple of Solomon" himself... but recruited people for forced labor. Edited September 13, 2011 by HeatherAnn
thesometimesaint Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 HeatherAnn:So do we.I'm so old that I remember when individual members did build our houses of worship.
Zakuska Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I suspect there are at least a few other churches with fewer ledger lines on their donation slips.Last time I checked... "plates" had exactly zero ledger lines.
Zakuska Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Yes, Notable.David did not see himself worthy (or was it God claiming that) to build a temple, after all of his war killing etc.Solomon did not build "The Temple of Solomon" himself... but recruited people for forced labor.Thats an oxymoron. You can't "recruit" some one then "force" them to Labor. You either do one or the other.From my reading of the scriputres the Temple as well as the Kings Palace... you know where Solomon lived... with all its fine polished gold plated lumber and silver platers etc. etc. where donated by the people. The people took their gold jewlery and jewels and donated them to beautify the Temple and the kings Palace. Solomon had the metal workers melt them down and make the brazen pillars and the brasin sea on the backs of the twelve oxen.This all Reminds me of the Nauvoo house from the D&C, which critics of Joseph Smith make fun of saying he was walking on the backs of the early Mormon emigrants and making himself rich. Might I add HeatherAnn... an educated well to do population who are free of financial worries themselves are much better equipped to feed the nations, clothe the naked, and fulfill the commandments that are asked of them. Edited September 13, 2011 by Zakuska 1
Calm Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Considering the poverty world-wide, the tithing that the church collects should be MUCH better applied in this priority.As we do, or don't do for others, we do or don't do for God."Thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow... shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29http://lds.org/liaho...query=sufferingIn addressing your question, I want you to understand that the greatest tool for easing suffering is the gospel itself. Conversion to the gospel so speeds the recovery and progress of those who live its precepts that miracles—temporal as well as spiritual—are wrought in the lives of people. It was this truth that led President Spencer W. Kimball to remark in 1974: “I remember as I went through the streets of Calcutta, [india], seeing the great numbers of starving people. … I remember being on the fifth floor of a big hotel in Calcutta and looking down on the back street where these people in their meager clothing were lying on the sidewalks … with no place to go and nothing to eat and no shelter. … I saw the rain come, and I saw these people move back a little farther under a little shelter. I saw the people in Peru suffer, and we were upbraided by one of the press one day for not taking care of all these poor people. ‘Why did we travel the world and do all these things and did not take care of these people,’ he asked. I said, ‘That is something you don’t understand. If these people would accept the gospel of Christ, the program is provided and they could be taken care of, and their sufferings could be alleviated. They could enjoy reasonable conditions in their homes and in their living.’ “And that is true, brethren and sisters. In my feeling, the gospel is the answer to all the problems of the world, if we go deeply enough and all are united in solving them. And that is why we work harder in missionary work, so that we can gradually bring the gospel to all the people, … the gospel of serving the poor, taking care of those less fortunate than ourselves.” (Transcript of Welfare Services Meeting, 5 Oct. 1974, pp. 18–19.) Edited September 13, 2011 by calmoriah
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 I'm not sure what you're saying here. In addition to the 10% of tithing, we are asked to pay fast offerings, and given the option to contribute to local and general missionary funds, humanitarian aid, Temple construction, the perpetual education fund, and in case they missed something, "other".I suspect there are at least a few other churches with fewer ledger lines on their donation slips.Building Budget was taken away in the 80's (I believe) with a letter from the First Presidency, or maybe it was "budget for Utilities". Growing up it was just "passing the plate" so hard to compare.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 Yes, Notable.David did not see himself worthy (or was it God claiming that) to build a temple, after all of his war killing etc.Solomon did not build "The Temple of Solomon" himself... but recruited people for forced labor.Semantics…I am sure David started with donations, or taxes.
cinepro Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Building Budget was taken away in the 80's (I believe) with a letter from the First Presidency, or maybe it was "budget for Utilities". Growing up it was just "passing the plate" so hard to compare.I'm not sure how this might relate to your question, but it should also be remembered that the members of the Church are now asked to donate their time and energy to clean the buildings (a job which used to be performed by paid janitors).
Zakuska Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure how this might relate to your question, but it should also be remembered that the members of the Church are now asked to donate their time and energy to clean the buildings (a job which used to be performed by paid janitors).Also worthy of note. This seems to be taken to the Temples as well. Our stake has a once a year assignment to go at 4am and clean the Jordan River Temple. We've also done the Conference center on occasion.I beleive all of this has Ancient precident as well. The Levites used to attend to the Temple Sanctuary, changing the torches. Keeping the Menorah burning by adding oil. Changing the shewbread. Cleaning up the ashes after the burnt offering etc. etc. etc. Edited September 13, 2011 by Zakuska
Calm Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I'm not sure what you're saying here. In addition to the 10% of tithing, we are asked to pay fast offerings, and given the option to contribute to local and general missionary funds, humanitarian aid, Temple construction, the perpetual education fund, and in case they missed something, "other".I suspect there are at least a few other churches with fewer ledger lines on their donation slips.I've always interpreted the additional options of allowing us more control over where our offerings are to be spent rather than solicitations for more money. 1
cinepro Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Also worthy of note. This seems to be taken to the Temples as well. Our stake has a once a year assignment to go at 4am and clean the Jordan River Temple. We've also done the Conference center on occasion.I beleive all of this has Ancient precident as well. The Levites used to attend to the Temple Sanctuary, changing the torches. Keeping the Menorah burning by adding oil. Changing the shewbread. Cleaning up the ashes after the burnt offering etc. etc. etc.I'm not saying it's not a good idea (I, myself, volunteer when the sign-ups are passed around). I was just pointing out that in the total calculation of members' solicited "donations" to the Church, money isn't the only consideration.
cinepro Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I've always interpreted the additional options of allowing us more control over where our offerings are to be spent rather than solicitations for more money.If the additional donations were inclusive of tithing money, you would be correct.
Calm Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 If the additional donations were inclusive of tithing money, you would be correct.I don't understand how separating out "offerings" into various categories is soliciting more money?
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