“Will A Man Rob God…In Tithes And Offerings”.

[HeatherAnn]

Thats an oxymoron. You can't "recruit" some one then "force" them to Labor. You either do one or the other.

From my reading of the scriputres the Temple as well as the Kings Palace... you know where Solomon lived... with all its fine polished gold plated lumber and silver platers etc. etc. where donated by the people. The people took their gold jewlery and jewels and donated them to beautify the Temple and the kings Palace. Solomon had the metal workers melt them down and make the brazen pillars and the brasin sea on the backs of the twelve oxen.

This all Reminds me of the Nauvoo house from the D&C, which critics of Joseph Smith make fun of saying he was walking on the backs of the early Mormon emigrants and making himself rich.

Might I add HeatherAnn... an educated well to do population who are free of financial worries themselves are much better equipped to feed the nations, clothe the naked, and fulfill the commandments that are asked of them.

Dear Zakuska,

Let me quote some scriptures for you.

"And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel: and the levy was THIRTY THOUSAND men... And Solomon had THREESCORE AND TEN THOUSAND that bare burdens, and FOURSCORE THOUSAND hewers in the mountains" -1Kings 5:13,15

"And this is the reason of the levy which king Solomon raised; for to build the house of the Lord, & his own house, & Millo, & the wall of Jerusalem, & Hazor, & Megiddo, & Gezer." -1Kings 9:15

(Sound familiar?)

After Solomon died, his son, Rehoboam reigned in his stead & was beseeched by the congregation of Israel, who pleaded, "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, & his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, & we will serve thee." -1Kings 12:4

Yes, notable, alright.

Edited September 13, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Zakuska]

I'm not saying it's not a good idea (I, myself, volunteer when the sign-ups are passed around). I was just pointing out that in the total calculation of members' solicited "donations" to the Church, money isn't the only consideration.

No I know you weren't doing that cinepro. I was just trying to get certian people to think a little. Edited September 13, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Dear Zakuska,

Let me quote some scriptures for you.

"And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel: and the levy was THIRTY THOUSAND men... And Solomon had THREESCORE AND TEN THOUSAND that bare burdens, and FOURSCORE THOUSAND hewers in the mountains" -1Kings 5:13,15

"And this is the reason of the levy which king Solomon raised; for to build the house of the Lord, & his own house, & Millo, & the wall of Jerusalem, & Hazor, & Megiddo, & Gezer." -1Kings 9:15

(Sound familiar?)

After Solomon died, his son, Rehoboam reigned in his stead & was beseeched by the congregation of Israel, who pleaded, "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, & his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, & we will serve thee." -1Kings 12:4

Yes, notable, alright.

None of that implies they were indentured slaves?

It sounds more like they were fed up with the taxes and they told their new Governor to lower them or they would refuse to support him. Also notice that all the money didn't just go to temple building. It went to build a house for the king.

Like I said... JS and the Nauvoo house pales in comparison to that.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Zakuska

[keith_brian]

I've always interpreted the additional options of allowing us more control over where our offerings are to be spent rather than solicitations for more money.

Unfortunately, members of the church aren't sure where any of this money gets spent because the church doesn't make its financial records public.

On another note, I am fairly certain that there are other churches out there (especially if one considers the Wiccan and other non-traditional churches) that require much less than 10% of the gross income of their members as a baseline for full access to the spiritual offerings of the church. I have a friend that used to be very active in Wiccan circles, and most of their church services consisted of communing with nature through various magical ceremonies -- something that probably requires a lot less upkeep than meeting houses and temples.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm not sure how this might relate to your question, but it should also be remembered that the members of the Church are now asked to donate their time and energy to clean the buildings (a job which used to be performed by paid janitors).

As I remember that came later...I used to do payroll for the Janitors. The budget I refer to was to keep the lights, gas and A/C on, not to clean the building.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Might I add HeatherAnn... an educated well to do population who are free of financial worries themselves are much better equipped to feed the nations, clothe the naked, and fulfill the commandments that are asked of them.

And we do as a Nation and as a Church.

[Sevenbak]

And tithing is supposed to be for GOD's work... in feeding & clothing the poor.. not profiting from malls, businesses or Universities.

You do know that the "mall" is being funded through the business arms of the church, and not through tithing funds, right?

[Storm Rider]

What other world wide church presents to its members or the entire world an accounting of how all their funds are spent annually. Does the Catholic Church? How about the Episcopal? Name me the worldwide church that does, please!!! This criticism is leveled at the church as if it is unique; that all other similar world wide organizations report everything to the world.

When I hear LDS get concerned about it, I invite each of them just stop paying tithing. No one forces you; granted there are blessings that go along with paying tithing, but hey, if know how each dollar in tithing is paid is more important, just stop. I am sure the Church will be just fine without it.

It is as if people do not understand how strictly tithes are used and for what purposes. The tiths are not mixed with the commerical side of the Church's holdings. They are completely separate.

As far as feeding the world's poor being a better task; who exactly is going to build the world's temples? Which is more important? Do you think the Lord might not understand how the funds should be spent. Why do you think the Lord said it is acceptable to rub his feet with expensive oils rather than selling it and feed the poor? You do remember who asked the question about it? That's right, it was Judas Iscariot.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You do know that the "mall" is being funded through the business arms of the church, and not through tithing funds, right?

That does not fit the anti-model. Don't confuse her with the facts. Even if it came from Tithing, the Church is just being good stewards and increasing their(our) talents, as Christ's parable endorses.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What other world wide church presents to its members or the entire world an accounting of how all their funds are spent annually. Does the Catholic Church? How about the Episcopal? Name me the worldwide church that does, please!!! This criticism is leveled at the church as if it is unique; that all other similar world wide organizations report everything to the world.

When I hear LDS get concerned about it, I invite each of them just stop paying tithing. No one forces you; granted there are blessings that go along with paying tithing, but hey, if know how each dollar in tithing is paid is more important, just stop. I am sure the Church will be just fine without it.

It is as if people do not understand how strictly tithes are used and for what purposes. The tiths are not mixed with the commerical side of the Church's holdings. They are completely separate.

As far as feeding the world's poor being a better task; who exactly is going to build the world's temples? Which is more important? Do you think the Lord might not understand how the funds should be spent. Why do you think the Lord said it is acceptable to rub his feet with expensive oils rather than selling it and feed the poor? You do remember who asked the question about it? That's right, it was Judas Iscariot.

Good points indeed.

[LeSellers]

You do know that the "mall" is being funded through the business arms of the church, and not through tithing funds, right?

That does not fit the anti-model. Don't confuse her with the facts. Even if it came from Tithing, the Church is just being good stewards and increasing their(our) talents, as Christ's parable endorses.

We tend to forget that the principle reason for building the mall was not for monetary gain at all, but, rather, to keep the area around Temple Square from becoming another blighted scab on the face of USmerica, as so many downtown ("inner city") areas have decayed into. When Auerbach's died a couple of decades ago (really bad management decision to ignore the attraction of malls), it would have been the death knell of Salt Lake City. Already, that whole northwestern section of town is festering. The Brethren had to act in a decisive way to keep the area vibrant and condusive to the calling of the Temple site.

Temple Square is the biggest tourist attraction in Utah. More importantly, it is a powerful missionary tool in addition to its being a colossal benefit to the Saints—providing a place to wed, to be saviors on Mount Zion, and to perform their own salvific ordinances. To allow the neighborhood to become another skid row would be a serious dereliction of stewardship.

Even if Tithing funds had been used (and none were), the goal was spiritual, not economic.

Lehi

[KevinG]

Think of the prophetic inspiration that brought a major construction and infrastucture project to downtown Salt Lake City while the rest of the nation suffers high unemployment in the construction trades. How many of those gainfully employed people are now tithing instead of receiving unemployment and support from the Bishops storehouse?

Ain't consecration great!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Think of the prophetic inspiration that brought a major construction and infrastucture project to downtown Salt Lake City while the rest of the nation suffers high unemployment in the construction trades. How many of those gainfully employed people are now tithing instead of receiving unemployment and support from the Bishops storehouse?

Ain't consecration great!

Yes; see if any of the construction workers who have a job are angry. I am sure they would rather be working than on Church welfare, costing the Church from a different pot.

[cinepro]

What other world wide church presents to its members or the entire world an accounting of how all their funds are spent annually. Does the Catholic Church? How about the Episcopal? Name me the worldwide church that does, please!!! This criticism is leveled at the church as if it is unique; that all other similar world wide organizations report everything to the world.

Personally, I think it would be great if we were at least as open as the Seventh-Day Adventists.

They don't talk about how the money is spent either, but they're way ahead of us on openness about how much is coming in.

Edited September 14, 2011 by cinepro

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Personally, I think it would be great if we were at least as open as the Seventh-Day Adventists.

They don't talk about how the money is spent either, but they're way ahead of us on openness about how much is coming in.

It would seem the two should be linked or useless information.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I thought it was pretty amazing. The stipulation was that each person wasn't allowed to spend the money on themselves.

Even more impressed

[mbh26]

I'm not sure how this might relate to your question, but it should also be remembered that the members of the Church are now asked to donate their time and energy to clean the buildings (a job which used to be performed by paid janitors).

With as many people who get Church welfare, you'd think they could work something out with cleaning the buildings. I've wondered since I was five years old at why we need immigrants to pick our apples but have more welfare than any other state in the union where I'm from.

[KevinG]

With as many people who get Church welfare, you'd think they could work something out with cleaning the buildings.

We do. People out of work and receiving assistance also work at the Bishops storehouse and other service opportunities. Requests for this kind of help are done quietly through the Bishop just like the assistance is given quietly through the Bishop. This saves money and dignity.