mbh26 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 God will recompence any and all that die. So in the eternal sense they lost nothing. We are under Gods command to do as he asks. Today and for the forseeable future we are commanded not to kill(murder) our fellow man.What recompense can He give them that He would not have given them had they lived out their lives?
Nathair/|\ Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 For a different perspective...http://lds.org/liaho...query=educationThank you for sharing that.
Calm Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 What recompense can He give them that He would not have given them had they lived out their lives?The recompense of filling any gaps in their progress created by their early deaths.
Nathair/|\ Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 What recompense can He give them that He would not have given them had they lived out their lives?An early end to suffering and temptation, less time developing bad habits.
mbh26 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 An early end to suffering and temptation, less time developing bad habits. That's a fair point. Even Socrates called death the greatest of human blessings. Death isn't always a bad thing even if it's tough for us to imagine otherwise. But even if not for themselves. These men were probably fathers and husbands. I think that's why many people would choose to live on.
Maidservant Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) I know that in our current culture, most children expect that their parents love them equally. But do parents have to do this, or are they free to give or withhold love as they chose? The Old Testament is pretty frank in acknowledging that Jacob loved Joseph the most because he was Rachel's son. He loved his other sons, but he loved Joseph more. Would it be fair to expect that while God loves us all, he loves some more than others. I've heard ideas that God loves us unconditionally whether we choose to be sinners or saints. This seems like a paradoxical and nebulous statement that I'm really not looking to hash out exactly. I'm talking about simply loving one child more than the other as in the Old Testament because of which wife that child came from, nothing really to do with the child's actions but rather who he was. I guess it would be fair. Your my child and I love you, but he's also my child and I love him more. Just because I love another more than you doesn't mean I love you any less.I think we take God's breath away, he loves us so much. I think he is endlessly, infinitely, joyously, irrevocably loving and in love with us. The reason I know this is because I have learned to do this in some small measure . . . every time I look at or connect with human being . . . and see and empathize with their suffering and witness their courage . . . even those who are in Satan's traps . . . anyway, every time I know a human being, it takes MY breath away. So I multiply that by . . . hundreds, thousands, millions, to get to God's love, and I know that it could not even occur to him to stop loving us. We are his drug .Is Satan still God's child?Does God love all of His creations infinitely? Does he love animals as much as He loves people?Yes. God is a person, Satan is a person. We are all just people. God loves Satan and Satan is still God's child.I would tend to think that God loves animals and all creations in that same infinite way, so I don't think there is "more" to have. It is all one. And in fact, innocent creations are more like newborns and children to him, so he would feel especially tender.But He treats them very differently, correct? What exactly is love?In the English language, maybe in other languages, too, I really think we need some more vocabulary to cover all the definitions, uses, nuances and experiences of love. However, our Church teaches of what is called charity or Christ's love (or God's love). There are even different ways we could phrase of what charity is and does and how it exists and comes about. But for me, I like to say that God's love is that which gives life. This could be anything . . . a force, an act, a living person . . . anything that gives life to any other being.the people slaughtered wholesale when Joshua entered CanaanTricky, yes. However, start here. Apparently these kinds of things also troubled Nephi and his brothers. Nephi found some understanding. May not provide a whole answer. 1 Nephi 17.The people who lived in Canaan were also covenant people of God, but had violated those covenants. They were descendents of Shem and had the same gospel that Abraham sought for and transmitted through the generations until the day of Joshua. There is still some "trickiness" on this, but this ought to be understood at minimum (that the people of Canaan were covenant people).God can't help but love us all unconditionally. It's like the moon - it just shines without asking Edited September 13, 2011 by Maidservant 1
Deborah Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I love my children equally, but enjoy being around some of them more than others. I could say my favorite is my oldest daughter but that doesn't mean I love the others any less. It's just that this daughter and I are so close.
HeatherAnn Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) As mentioned before, how we define God, we define ourselves & others.If we think God loves conditionally, then we do. And the scriptures could be interpreted to mean that God is our ultimate punisher, to be feared & ashamed before.Or, scriptures could be interpreted to mean that GOD IS LOVE... & that perfect love casteth out fear.God is progress... toward what is best in the long run, not temporary gratification.The carnal side of us loves conditionally... if we get along with someone, if they meet our expectations, if we get something out of it... if if if.The spiritual side of us, when experiencing the spirit/kingdom of God within... loves based on what's best in the long run, despite what we want superficially, for the moment."Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you... For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye, for sinners also love those that love them... But love ye your enemies, & do good, & lend, hoping for nothing again; & your reward shall be great, & ye shall be the children of the Highest; for he is kind unto the unthankful & to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful...Condemn not, & ye shall not be condemned..." -Luke 6 Edited September 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn
altersteve Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 That's kind of the reason I included the statement that unconditional love was doing what is best for someone regardless of what the relationship has become. In the end God will "take care" of Satan in a way that is the best thing for him. Does that mean anihilation? Is that "love"? Possibly............I can't answer either of those questions authoritatively. I know God loves his children. Is Satan still one of His "children" or is he, at this point in his existence, one of his "creations"?Satan is neither God's child nor His creation. Lucifer (who Satan used to be) was, but Satan is not. God did not create evil.
HeatherAnn Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Satan is neither God's child nor His creation. Lucifer (who Satan used to be) was, but Satan is not. God did not create evil. So, I believed for most of my life... until I read & thought a little deeper..."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, & that are in earth, visible & invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, & for him: And he is before all things, & by him all things consist." - Colossians 1:16-17God created all things... including evil..."For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things." -2Neph 2:11Evil is not like Darth Vadar... & not some person named Satan. Evil is part of all of us... because we regularly fall short of our ideals, & more importantly, of God's ideals.IMO, we are mostly good, but that bad has a way of overriding good, especially if it becomes tradition or habit.IMO, God is that which is GoOD... actually, what is best of all possibilities. God sees the big picture. He knows that while sin isn't the end goal, it is part of the process of reaching the end goal, because we tend to learn by trial & error... ACTIVE (not passive) faith. 1
Maidservant Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Good and evil are not created at all except by the act of a being. When a being acts, he brings into existence either the good or the evil of that act. Good and evil cannot be separated from being, from action, and good and evil can only be understood in terms of our relationships with other beings, otherwise there is no good or evil, not as invisible essence. There is evil when we violate each other. There is good when we give life to each other.Satan was born to our Father in heaven by whatever means we all were born to him (mechanics unknown at this time), and since that was an event in time/eternity in the past, it really can't be undone.Someone talked about disowning and the scriptures do talk about being cast out; and also about becoming sons of God by covenant. So obviously Satan is party to the former process and has barred himself from the latter process.
mbh26 Posted September 14, 2011 Author Posted September 14, 2011 Evil is not like Darth Vadar... & not some person named Satan. Evil is part of all of us... because we regularly fall short of our ideals, & more importantly, of God's ideals.Isn't that truth. Thank you for elucidating that point. Far too often we try to call things black and white when the truth is that there is good and bad in everyone to different degrees.
HeatherAnn Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) Thanks, Mbh. Yeah, good & evil are often circumstancial... as Maidservant alluded to. Good and evil are not created at all except by the act of a being. When a being acts, he brings into existence either the good or the evil of that act. Good and evil cannot be separated from being, from action, and good and evil can only be understood in terms of our relationships with other beings, otherwise there is no good or evil, not as invisible essence. There is evil when we violate each other. There is good when we give life to each other... Good & evil are only such in comparison with the circumstances... what is promoting life & what is hindering life (& not just life or death - but health/liveliness - physically, mentally & spiritually).When I play a C on the piano, there's nothing wrong or right with it - it just is.But when I play it when it's supposed to be a sharp, or in the wrong timing, or hitting it too hard, I can hear that it isn't right - in relation to the rest of the music piece.Usually, killing is not right... yet if someone were attacking me or my children, I'd defend us however I needed to.Usually lying is not right... yet sometimes, brutal honesty is more cruel.As you mentioned, good & evil can only be understood in terms of our relationship with other beings, or with circumstances. God sees the big picture - we often don't... Yet, through both intellect & intuition, we have a better chance of getting close to what's best in any given circumstance. Edited September 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn
Deborah Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 We need to distinguish between true evil and simply doing something bad. I would consider Hitler evil. I would not necessarily consider a person who embezzles because they are desperate necessarily evil even though he broke the law. Doing bad things doesn't necessarily make one evil; one may be like the Lamanites and simply ignorant. But there are people who have evil agendas and knowingly commit evil acts. I think it is a mistake to say that there are not people who are evil, but evil is only what one does. Satan can present himself as an angel of light, yet his purpose is to deceive and destroy. The fact that he may appear to be good doesn't change the fact that he is evil in all his intents and purposes.
english gent Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Heavenly Father loves us all - as His children - equally.His desire is to 'bring to pass the... eternal life of man' (Moses 1:39). This is only possible for us to achieve if we are obedient to Him, to what He asks us to do (we have to obey Celestial Law in order to inherit the Celestial Kingdom).Therefore, He is displeased with those who are not obedient (although He still loves them and always will love them) and more pleased, and subsequently is able to bless, those of His children who choose to be more obedient.He doesn't LOVE some of His children more (or less) than others; that would be unfair - and He is perfect.Rather, like any good parent, He loves all of his children equally and simply desires obedience.In the Bible, Jacob's feelings/dealings with his children (in the sense that he 'loved Joseph more than all his children' Genesis 37:3) are not typical of our Heavenly Father.
Calm Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) His love knows no bounds, it is infinite. To me to talk of equalities in such a situation is rather meaningless as his love can't be measured and equality implies measurement. Edited October 14, 2011 by calmoriah
CV75 Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Just because I love another more than you doesn't mean I love you any less.There are many facets of love. Some are intrinsic (God still loves Satan because "God is love") and some are shared (God loves those in Zion because they are of one heart and mind with Him). We can choose to enjoy all or only some of the facets of God's love for us.
thesometimesaint Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 God loves all of us equally. What we do not so much.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 I know that in our current culture, most children expect that their parents love them equally. But do parents have to do this, or are they free to give or withhold love as they chose? The Old Testament is pretty frank in acknowledging that Jacob loved Joseph the most because he was Rachel's son. He loved his other sons, but he loved Joseph more. Would it be fair to expect that while God loves us all, he loves some more than others. I've heard ideas that God loves us unconditionally whether we choose to be sinners or saints. This seems like a paradoxical and nebulous statement that I'm really not looking to hash out exactly. I'm talking about simply loving one child more than the other as in the Old Testament because of which wife that child came from, nothing really to do with the child's actions but rather who he was. I guess it would be fair. Your my child and I love you, but he's also my child and I love him more. Just because I love another more than you doesn't mean I love you any less.Are you a parent? That should answer that question.
Damien the Leper Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 I hope He does. Otherwise, I'm screwed. I'm a big fan of Rob Bell's book Love Wins. Evangelicals hate it. LOL
mercyngrace Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Haven't read the whole thread so pardon me for jumping in with an answer that may be redundant...In terms of love (n.), my experiences compel me to believe that God feels an infinite and eternal love for all His children. This love is likely equal in quantity insofar as two infinite loves can be compared, however, this love is different qualitatively in the sense that we are each quite unique and likely inspire individualized emotional responses. I am reminded of a storybook I've read to my children too many times to count, I love you the purplest.When it comes to love (v.) however, God's expressions of His innermost longings for each of His children are manifest in wildly unequal ways based upon our needs, our behaviors, and eternal laws. That love, whether it's demonstrated through miracles, chastening, or anything in between, is always motivated by His love (n.).
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