Quetzalcoatl?

[Brant Gardner]

I would only advise that if you decide to read it (or any of these things) compare and contrast what it claims against what the scientific world has found. Do they take things out of context? Do they do any quote-mining? . . . .

Those are certainly good things to consider. However, you are also missing about a thousand years of history in the association of Quetzalcoatl with some non-native. In many cases, the LDS authors took their information from the best sources available to them at the time. There has been a massive change in the availability of evidence in the last 30-40 years. You seem to be imputing some kind of error to the LDS authors that really isn't warranted.

I agree that they made mistakes in reading the evidence, but in doing so they read the evidence virtually the same way everyone else (including non-LDS scholars) did at the time. They held some of those ideas a little longer, but your suggestion that they were somehow less than competent scholars is actually a problem with the entire literature at the time, and pretty much anything before 1970.

[Cobalt-70]

It's easy to understand why Mormons will want to bend over backwards to make any connection possible between the Book of Mormon and aboriginal American mythology. But I think it's just an example of our natural human aptitude for pattern recognition. It's what happened when early Romans saw that their god Jupiter was at lot like the Greek god Zeus, and that their god Mercury was like the Greek god Hermes. It's why people think they hear the voices of their departed loved ones in TV static, and why we see faces in the mountains of Mars.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[Bernard Gui]

The Cuna weren't conquered by either the Spanish or the Panamanians. Their ancient culture has survived better than most Native American groups. Their history is told in songs memorized by special leaders. It's worth looking in to.

Ibeorkun, Ibiorgum, Ibeorgun...was a hero who came down to earth on a sundisk. He taught them how to be

moral and how to treat each other and their system of government. The place where the leaders gather is

called the house of Ibeorgun.

Ted Brewerton, when he was mission president in Central America, kept detailed notes of what he learned

from Kuna (Cuna) leaders who had joined the Church or were friendly to the Church. There was a series

of holy men over their history that foretold their future, and there were some things told about the final

prophet that resonated with the Kuna when the LDS elders showed up. Some entire islands joined the

Church on direction of their leaders. Of course, retention and abandoning ancient cultural practices that were not compatible with Church teaching (ie., chicha drinking at feasts) take their toll. I don't know what happened

to his notes, but they would be worth hunting down.

Bernard

I have heard a short recounting of it. There are stories like that all over the New World, almost always in places where the Spanish were the conquerors. While every one deserves to be investigated separately, there are many for which there is insufficient data to really make the comparisons needed to verify or clarify the story. That is where Central Mexico was the best place to unravel Quetzalcoatl--more data exist.

The commonalities in the story strongly suggest a common origin, and based on what I have seen in Central Mexico, I suspect that the common origin is Spanish and not native. The Spaniards found that a returning god theme worked well once, and tried it wherever they could. I don't doubt that there was always some native element that they adapted, but the adaptation always seems to have fallen into a formula.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Storm Rider]

If you want to read of LDS apologists/scholars and their attempts to associate Quetzalcoatl read "New Evidences of Christ in Ancient America"

http://www.amazon.co...a/dp/0929753011

And I *think* ~Dewey Farnsworth~ made the case for Jesus=Quetzalcoatl in his "Americas Before Columbus"

http://www.amazon.co...h/dp/B000ILQHVM

And see this link:

http://www.lightplan...archaelogy.html

And this one:

http://www.ancientam...MBOLISM.htm?n=0

And this one:

http://ancientameric...ELA%205.htm?n=0

Edit -- And let's not leave out Jeff Lyndsay:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml

Edit -- and search LDS.org for 'quetzalcoatl' to see how the Church uses the feathered serpent to enhance the Mormon experience:

http://lds.org/searc...ry=quetzalcoatl

You may need this as well:

http://www.walmart.c...-26-oz/17283321

Based on the data in Yorgason's book I lived for a time believing Jesus=Quetzalcoatl, that the Maya were the Lamanites, that the Toltec were Nephites and that the Olmec were Jaredites. For awhile I thought it was just fine to be a Quetzalcoatl worshipper. Several people at church also thought Jesus was Quetzalcoat, and if there were differences it was because the wicked Lamanites went around carefully destroying as much evidence of Nephites & Christianity as possible...... I was going to go ahead and give you a review but I don't want to be accused of poisoning the well. I would only advise that if you decide to read it (or any of these things) compare and contrast what it claims against what the scientific world has found. Do they take things out of context? Do they do any quote-mining? How large is their harvest of cherries(cherry-picking expedition)? Do they take something specific, move it up a level to less-specific then remold it into a more specific form that makes their argument look better (horse --> quadropedic land mammal --> tapir)? Do they use spurious data or even known fraudulent data for support? Does the premise require you to employ circular reasoning(science looks at the natural world and tries to draw conclusions from the data; religion begins with the conclusion and seeks data to support the conclusion)? What have non-LDS professional archaeologists, linguists, biologists, etc. said regarding these 'evidences'? Assuming you believe in the New Testament Jesus, do the authors/researchers asserting that Jesus=Quetzalcoatl have indications of being wolves-dressed-like-sheep? What tools do you have to be a watchman for your family and friends so that they're not decieved?

Have a nice day!

Boy, I am sure glad you are so concerned about not poisoning the well. The only thing else that I would request is take these exact same standards and apply them to the Bible and see how far you can run with it. Anti-Mormons and critics are only able to work with a schizophrenic mind; they use one standard for everyone else and then they put blinders on for their own beliefs.

If you seek to put your faith in the arm of flesh; use that standard for all things. Ignore everything that does not fit soley within the world of scientific analysis; throw it out. It is a faithless life, but hey, you will please those who sit int he big house in their fine clothing and shout out epithets at those who actually emulate the path of Peter who leaned on faith alone for knowledge of his Master.

[cinepro]

I found this interesting.

Could Joseph have known about the legend of Questzalcoatl and his connection to feathered serpants at the time he was translating the BOM?

(I mean, was this common knowledge, available in any backwoods library in the late 1820's?)

In the story, the serpents aren't Jesus, so I'm not sure how they would be connected to a Quetzlcoatl=Jesus theory.

And I don't know what books Joseph Smith's library had, but since he had a Bible, he didn't need to go very far to find the phrase: (quotes Isaiah 14:29; 30:6)

Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

Isaiah 30:6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

Not to mention that LDS Scholars John Pratt and Ron Millett have suggested a non-feathered possibility for a jumping snake in the region that might have been a factor in the Biblical story.

Edited August 31, 2011 by cinepro

[LeSellers]

In the story, the serpents aren't Jesus, so I'm not sure how they would be connected to a Quetzlcoatl=Jesus theory.

And I don't know what books Joseph Smith's library had, but since he had a Bible, he didn't need to go very far to find the phrase: (quotes Isaiah 14:29; 30:6)

The first appearance of a serpent as a saving device was in Num 21:9. The Book of Mormon gves us much valuable information on the subject.

Lehi

[cinepro]

The first appearance of a serpent as a saving device was in Num 21:9. The Book of Mormon gves us much valuable information on the subject.

Lehi

Forgot about that (until I remembered the article above). Still, not feathered.

[LeSellers]

Forgot about that (until I remembered the article above). Still, not feathered.

We know this, how?

Even if not, it does not mean there is no connection between the two.

Traditions often get altered over the millennia.

Lehi

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I showed Ancient America Speaks many dozens of times to investigators on my mission. I wish apologetics were the same yesterday, today and forever.

Was it the quality of the tape or the content?

[amo]

I just posted this on an other thread, which I believe was not the right 1.

Now that I've found this 1, I'll re post it here.

 

I was shown the following statement by pres, Taylor, regarding Quetzalcoatl. Has any 1 heard of it before ? How reliable is it ?

Thx.

 

 

 

 

AN EXAMINATION INTO AND AN ELUCIDATION OF THE GREAT PRINCIPLE OF THE MEDIATION AND ATONEMENT OF Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
BY PRESIDENT JOHN TAYLOR.
SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH:
Deseret News Publishing Co,, Printers and Pqblishers.
1892.
The story of the life of the Mexican divinity,
Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so
closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion
than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.
But the history of the former has been handed down
to us through an impure Lamanitish source, which has
sadly disfigured and perverted the original incidents and
teachings of the Saviors life and ministry.

[Brant Gardner]

Based on the stories that he had heard, it wasn't an unreasonable statement. However, he had not had exposure to the full range of the material, much of which was very difficult to obtain during his lifetime.

[canard78]

I heard the triple invocation and I come!

I do not believe that there is any connection between Quetzalcoatl and the Book of Mormon at all. The best explanation of my reasons is in my commentary, which isn't as easily accessible as online texts. There is a recording of a paper I gave on the topic at Sunstone (there were two, one in the 70's and a more recent - go with the more recent which is a condensation of what is in the commentary).

This is why I value your opinion of BoM evidences above many others. Your willingness to dismiss things makes the arguments you support far more compelling.