The Great Divide

[Franktalk]

I have often pondered the early church and how could it get so bad so quickly. Then I realized that the church leadership took a wrong turn very early. The church could be run by the members and could be a tool of the members. Or the church could claim authority and power and have the church rule over the members. I am not talking priesthood authority.

Here is the great divider of the leadership of a church. There are two ways one can go when one forms a church. One path is the path to orthodox faith. Here someone feels in their heart that scripture is true and the witness of Peter is to be believed as one would believe a witness in a court room. It is proof that God exist because we have faith in the witness of Peter. Peter becomes our foundation upon which we build our faith. Then as Peter becomes the leader of the church our faith rest in the leadership of the church. We have placed an intermediary between God and us. Some will use this same logic and place the written Word as the intermediary. The Bible is for many their God because they see the Bible as their witness and proof. What is missing is the direct communication with God. It is my belief that the Holy Ghost will not confirm a structure in which the relationship we are to have with God places an intermediary between God and the seeker. The Holy Ghost is a witness who confirms faith. It is our faith which leads the way. When we believe on God directly the Holy Ghost will confirm that belief. But if we believe the testimony of another then our faith is on a man and not due to a direct relationship with God. The Holy Ghost will be silent on things of the world. So if your faith rest on the world then the Holy Ghost can not witness to that which is not true. Most people attach many details of faith to a belief, if the belief is direct and simple then the Holy Ghost can witness but if someone has the world attached to their belief then the Holy Ghost will be silent. The Holy Ghost leads to all truth and the Holy Ghost will not lead you to the world or verify that the path to the world is correct.

For those who see the Bible as witnesses of men and see the Bible as a legal document in which the witnesses are the proof of the truth of the matter then they are lost. They have taken the wrong path. Anyone who rest their faith on their interpretation of the Word is in error. It is obvious that there is but one truth but man has many interpretations of scripture. It is only the direct communication from Spirit to spirit that has no errors. But these are simple truths.

Any church which rest its authority on Peter is an apostate church. The body of Christ His bride are the people of faith who believe on Him. The church should be a structure to accomplish the goals of the members. But many churches are upside down. The members work for the leadership of the church for the survival of the church. The church has no value at all. The worth in the church is the members. Has Christ at any time said He loved a building? Did He say He loved a stone? He does love His bride.

[3DOP]

Hi Franktalk.

That wasn't very easy to follow. I am left wondering if you think I should go to church, and if so, where?

3DOP

[Avatar4321]

You weren't the only one scratching their head on that one 3DOP. I'm not really sure what his point is.

[Franktalk]

Hi Franktalk.

That wasn't very easy to follow. I am left wondering if you think I should go to church, and if so, where?

3DOP

I am sorry I was not more clear. Let me be blunt. If we establish a spirit to spirit relationship with God we do well. When we place the world in between God and us we don't do well. Most people can see this. But the world has placed itself between man and God in many churches. Each member can of their own free will choose to look to the church for answers or to look for God for answers. Some churches attract people because it so easy to belong to the church. You go to church and follow a couple of rules then you receive the promise of eternal bliss. It sounds great but it is not true. When we die we want to meet our friend and God Jesus. We want Him to recognize us and we want to know Him. We can't do this if a church stands in the way.

Some history. There was a time when man made an idol, it was a statue and the foot of the statue stuck out at the bottom and the idol. The big toe stuck out at just the right height. So when you went to worship the idol you bent down and kissed the toe of your idol. There are churches today that practice this same rite. People bend down and kiss the ring of a church leader. Does this seem right that some people act out what was a pagan rite? Are not the church leaders supposed to wash the feet of the members. If Christ showed us anything we are to be servants and not masters. We have but one master and one Father.

Matthew 23:9

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And just how many churches on the earth require the members to call the leaders father? And what of this command:

1 Timothy 3:2

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Need I point out the churches which ignore this command from scripture.

And of course there are more. But we must ask our self how can it be that a church can ignore a clear commandment from scripture? This thread is my attempt to explain how some churches have declared them self above scripture. Some churches place them self between you and God. They will decide what is from God and what is not. They will decide to change the very Word of God. Let me show the passages which they say give them that authority.

Matthew 16:16-19

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of h*** shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

One interpretation of this passage is that the faith of Peter and his witness of Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter is also symbolic of the church and all authority given Peter is given to the church. So when Peter died the authority passed to the new Bishop of Rome. What is key in this interpretation is that Peter is told that whatsoever he shall bind on earth it will also be bound in heaven, and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So ignoring the rest of scripture one could say that the Bishop of Rome has authority to do anything. If anyone is interested you can look up in the Catholic Encyclopedia vol 12 around page 266 and find the rights of the Pope and the RCC. Now I don't happen to agree with this interpretation of this passage.

Let me restate that it is my belief that the above passage tells us that the foundation of the church is the spirit to spirit communication between man and God. Since I don't believe Peter represented the church then the keys were given him and not passed to the church. And just how do I know that the keys were not passed? I think there is another passage which seems strange to many but if viewed in this light it is revealing.

Acts 5:3-11

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Here it is clear that Peter has some involvement in the killing of these two people. Some say it is not Peter but the Holy Ghost. To those I would say that over the last two thousand years many people have done the same as these two and were not killed. So what ever power Peter had did not pass to the next Bishop of Rome. I am sure that if the Popes over the last two thousand years had this power they would have used it. So the authority of Peter did not pass down. This means that a church which believes it has the power and authority to change scripture is apostate.

So after the death of Peter the church of Rome decides to incorporate some of the aspects of Greek philosophy into its doctrine. They also decide to include some pagan holidays into the church as well. The doctrine of the Trinity came in as well with the Council of Nicea. The church becomes a civil State and makes laws to govern the people lives and their spirits. This continues until Napoleon strips their State authority. Of course Mussolini gave them back their State authority which they still hold today. Vatican City is its own country.

This drifting away from scripture became so bad that the members of the church divided. This was known as the Protestant Reformation. What is sad is the split did not fix the issues with doctrine or structure. The churches that split off did the same things. They changed scripture as well. We have the gap theory which tells us that the long ages of the earth are in gaps in scripture. We have replacement theology which states that the promises to the Jews are now given to the church. We have many people who feel that the theories of science are the ultimate truth and scripture must only deal with those places where man has not defined.

So it should not be surprising that the church had to be re-established on the earth.

[Franktalk]

In the OP I gave my opinion on why some churches drifted towards the world. In post 4 I gave what I think is the history of the apostacy. I think we need to understand why the old church became apostate. If we do not then we may be pulled or pushed to that same path. Yes, the Mormon Church has a prophet but we know that not all members are perfect, in fact none are. So knowledge of history is important for the mind it also allows us to describe why this church and not another. This knowledge also allows us to see the leadership of the apostate church in one light and the members in another. And of course we are not to judge the spirit of either group. But we can see a behavior and know that that behavior is not on a good path.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Franktalk

[Franktalk]

I might as well finish this idea. It is my belief that Peter is typical of many people in the Bible. He was not perfect and we are to find those imperfect areas and recognize them. If we do not then we are led to believe things that are not true. Let me lay this out so you can see my view.

Christ said to Peter

John 21:18

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

I think there is way more going on here than most would admit. I think that this is a warning for us reading scripture to look for areas where Peter is doing his own thing and not following the Holy Spirit. It is my belief that Peter was responsible for the killing of the husband and wife who failed to give the church what they said they would. If the Holy Ghost killed everyone who ever said one thing to God and did another we would all be dead. But this passage is a lesson for us. I think we are to see Peter in a critical light. Just as we see David in a critical light when he kills a man to gain access to his wife. Now David shed innocent blood whereas Peter did not.

Now Peter is viewed by some as representing the church. The killing of the two people by Peter is justification for the future church to kill in order to promote or protect the church. It is obvious that Christ never taught to kill but to be an example and preach the good word. It is my opinion that Peter was chosen by Christ because he was a hot head. Peter did things on his own that we should examine in light of the rest of scripture. Are we to use the killing of the husband and wife as the standard and modify the rest of scripture or are we to look at the killings with a critical eye? In my mind the killings are not in line with the rest of scripture. So why are they there? I believe that they are there as a stumbling block. The early church saw these verses as a way to obtain power and justification to use the ways of the world to obtain wealth and power. Where in scripture does it say to obtain size in the church by using the ways of the world?

So was Christ warning us in John 21:18 that Peter would do things that were not God's will but his own? I think He was warning us.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I might as well finish this idea. It is my belief that Peter is typical of many people in the Bible. He was not perfect and we are to find those imperfect areas and recognize them. If we do not then we are led to believe things that are not true. Let me lay this out so you can see my view.

Christ said to Peter

John 21:18

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

I think there is way more going on here than most would admit. I think that this is a warning for us reading scripture to look for areas where Peter is doing his own thing and not following the Holy Spirit. It is my belief that Peter was responsible for the killing of the husband and wife who failed to give the church what they said they would. If the Holy Ghost killed everyone who ever said one thing to God and did another we would all be dead. But this passage is a lesson for us. I think we are to see Peter in a critical light. Just as we see David in a critical light when he kills a man to gain access to his wife. Now David shed innocent blood whereas Peter did not.

Now Peter is viewed by some as representing the church. The killing of the two people by Peter is justification for the future church to kill in order to promote or protect the church. It is obvious that Christ never taught to kill but to be an example and preach the good word. It is my opinion that Peter was chosen by Christ because he was a hot head. Peter did things on his own that we should examine in light of the rest of scripture. Are we to use the killing of the husband and wife as the standard and modify the rest of scripture or are we to look at the killings with a critical eye? In my mind the killings are not in line with the rest of scripture. So why are they there? I believe that they are there as a stumbling block. The early church saw these verses as a way to obtain power and justification to use the ways of the world to obtain wealth and power. Where in scripture does it say to obtain size in the church by using the ways of the world?

So was Christ warning us in John 21:18 that Peter would do things that were not God's will but his own? I think He was warning us.

Isaiah 5:21

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Alma 45:24

24 But they grew proud, being lifted up in their hearts, because of their exceedingly great riches; therefore they grew rich in their own eyes, and would not give heed to their words, to walk uprightly before God.

PRIDE is our worst enemy, and the enemy is US.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle

[Storm Rider]

I have often pondered the early church and how could it get so bad so quickly. Then I realized that the church leadership took a wrong turn very early. The church could be run by the members and could be a tool of the members. Or the church could claim authority and power and have the church rule over the members. I am not talking priesthood authority.

Here is the great divider of the leadership of a church. There are two ways one can go when one forms a church. One path is the path to orthodox faith. Here someone feels in their heart that scripture is true and the witness of Peter is to be believed as one would believe a witness in a court room. It is proof that God exist because we have faith in the witness of Peter. Peter becomes our foundation upon which we build our faith. Then as Peter becomes the leader of the church our faith rest in the leadership of the church. We have placed an intermediary between God and us. Some will use this same logic and place the written Word as the intermediary. The Bible is for many their God because they see the Bible as their witness and proof. What is missing is the direct communication with God. It is my belief that the Holy Ghost will not confirm a structure in which the relationship we are to have with God places an intermediary between God and the seeker. The Holy Ghost is a witness who confirms faith. It is our faith which leads the way. When we believe on God directly the Holy Ghost will confirm that belief. But if we believe the testimony of another then our faith is on a man and not due to a direct relationship with God. The Holy Ghost will be silent on things of the world. So if your faith rest on the world then the Holy Ghost can not witness to that which is not true. Most people attach many details of faith to a belief, if the belief is direct and simple then the Holy Ghost can witness but if someone has the world attached to their belief then the Holy Ghost will be silent. The Holy Ghost leads to all truth and the Holy Ghost will not lead you to the world or verify that the path to the world is correct.

For those who see the Bible as witnesses of men and see the Bible as a legal document in which the witnesses are the proof of the truth of the matter then they are lost. They have taken the wrong path. Anyone who rest their faith on their interpretation of the Word is in error. It is obvious that there is but one truth but man has many interpretations of scripture. It is only the direct communication from Spirit to spirit that has no errors. But these are simple truths.

Any church which rest its authority on Peter is an apostate church. The body of Christ His bride are the people of faith who believe on Him. The church should be a structure to accomplish the goals of the members. But many churches are upside down. The members work for the leadership of the church for the survival of the church. The church has no value at all. The worth in the church is the members. Has Christ at any time said He loved a building? Did He say He loved a stone? He does love His bride.

What God has said about other churches is that their Creeds are an abomination. Given my age and the years that I have studied religion, I have come to an understanding that all those that follow Christ are part of him, regardless of which church they belong. They fulfill God's will by their striving to follow the teachings of Christ. The Orthodox churches, Catholic and EO, have histories that are filled with examples of true saints, holy men and women, and we would do well to learn from. I would again counsel meekness on this topic; when we point one finger in accusation at another there are always three fingers pointing back at ourlselves. Process is important and Catholics and LDS often committ the same types of sins when it comes to talking about our respective churches and leaders. The church should NOT be a structure to accomplish the goals of the members. The Church is the structure through which God shares eternal life with those who follow him.

[Franktalk]

What God has said about other churches is that their Creeds are an abomination. Given my age and the years that I have studied religion, I have come to an understanding that all those that follow Christ are part of him, regardless of which church they belong. They fulfill God's will by their striving to follow the teachings of Christ. The Orthodox churches, Catholic and EO, have histories that are filled with examples of true saints, holy men and women, and we would do well to learn from. I would again counsel meekness on this topic; when we point one finger in accusation at another there are always three fingers pointing back at ourlselves. Process is important and Catholics and LDS often committ the same types of sins when it comes to talking about our respective churches and leaders. The church should NOT be a structure to accomplish the goals of the members. The Church is the structure through which God shares eternal life with those who follow him.

I agree but we are not to ignore truth no matter where it comes from. I am not judging the people in the early church or any church. But I am trying to point out the logic and sequence that led the early church to where it went. If indeed the people who made these decisions thought they were doing God's work then they will be judged by God and not me on what they believed. All churches are made up of people and as such are weak like the flesh. Only with knowledge and spiritual strength can we endure and stay the course.

It is my belief that many are saved who do not even call them self Christian. The largest group are the Jews but I believe many more groups as well. For me I believe with all my heart that God's will is to save as many as He can. And knowing God I trust that He will accomplish His goals. Who am I to stand and object? It appears to me that the only ones not saved will be those who know God but reject Him.

John 21:15-18

15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Notice that Jesus did not say kill my sheep. Was Christ making a point? Of course He was. The message is to love the sheep as thyself and to love thy God. How do we show our love of God? By loving His sheep. By feeding His sheep. By visiting His sheep in prison.

It is not my goal to bring down Peter. My goal is to understand some history and make sure I do not make similar mistakes. We can receive a judgment if we do not read scripture correctly. The Jews were told in the prophecy of Daniel to the day that they should expect the Messiah to come to Jerusalem. This is the 69 week prophecy. Because they missed "their day" they received a judgment from God and mercy as well. The mercy came from blindness to the gospel and Christ so they would not be held accountable for the killing of Christ because they knew not who He was. The judgment was the destruction of Jerusalem in 38 years because they missed their day. They were judged on an accurate reading of scripture. The book of Revelation is our book to get right. How many of us study it? How many churches even talk about it in their service? Are we not setting our self up just as the Jews did? Where they lost a city we may lose a world's population.

[BCSpace]

For those who see the Bible as witnesses of men and see the Bible as a legal document in which the witnesses are the proof of the truth of the matter then they are lost. They have taken the wrong path. Anyone who rest their faith on their interpretation of the Word is in error. It is obvious that there is but one truth but man has many interpretations of scripture. It is only the direct communication from Spirit to spirit that has no errors. But these are simple truths.

According to Ephesians 4:11-14, doctrine comes from the Church organization. The LDS Church is the only Church that seems to match that organization and also to be in Biblical harmony.

Edited July 25, 2011 by BCSpace

[ldsfaqs]

Hello Franktalk.......

There is no doubt that salvation and exaltation is an "individual" affair, nothing changes that, no matter if there is or isn't a Church or a belief in anything religious.

While the Bible does teach this "personal" relationship you speak of, the Bible and Christ also teaches that there IS an authority, a structure, a system in which "Gods Truths", rather than mans truths, such as the ones YOU are trying to tell us, is given.

Ignore the Old Testament if you wish, but the New Testament is full of examples the Authority of Christ and the Apostles which NONE other had.

The LDS Church is the only Church which in full follows what the New Testament teaches. The Catholic and Orthodox Church's, while there being many results due to Apostasy, most certainly demonstrate much of what the original Church Christ and the Apostles established. They system, the authority, etc. was much retained. Those who try to deny this, for a simple Holy Ghost Church, deny both the Bible and history. The other problem, is that this Holy Ghost Church you speak of, belongs to anyone and everyone. Anyone and everyone has access to the Holy Ghost, and thereby create their own religions, their own ideology's, etc., mixing the doctrines of God with the doctrines of men. Without TRUE authority from God, True Prophets, there IS NO TRUTH, only relative to the man truth. Because humans are flawed, they can NEVER know of themselves what is fully God's Truths, without the Lords anointed on the earth. Sure, some can come close, but most are so far away, and end up tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

All the Church's get their authority from the Scriptures to various degrees of truth and accuracy. The question then is, is the Lords true and living Church again on the earth, in these clearly last days as prophesied? It most certainly is. Everything we are and do is found in the scriptures, even the Bible alone. I first new the Bible for myself from reading it, and being in many religions, and seeing that NONE followed in full and accurately what the Bible actually said. It wasn't until I came upon mormonism did a religion actually fit the book, the pattern of what makes a true church on the earth, revelation, witnesses, scripture, matching doctrine and practices, etc.

Read Mark/Luke 9. These chapters touch not only on the evils of being "anti" other Faiths, but also shows that the Apostles knew very well that they had a special authority NOT given to all who believe on Christ. In this instance, they mistakenly tried to be anti, trying to destroy the faith of others, but Christ warned them not to, for they also where his children and shouldn't be harmed. The ultimate premise of the Apostles was still accurate, that they had something, not just any believer had, and that was God's literal authority on the earth. There are other examples of this, such as related to baptism, and giving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, in which all required the proper authority, which some had, and some didn't have. Everyone has access to the Holy Ghost, access to the spirit, hence why it was okay to Christ for other believers, even though they be children, and not with the Church, to do miracles in His Name. But, those are Gifts..... They are not the power and authority of God to lead and dictate His Word. This is what the Apostles and all so anointed have, which no one else has, no matter how "spiritual" they feel, or believing they are. The scriptures are clear, NONE can lead and proclaim the word, save they be called of God as was Aaron. And how was Aaron called, by revelation AND by anointing by one in authority, i.e. Moses.

The Apostasy isn't due to "religion" as you claim, but is due entirely because of what you claim, that is men claiming authority and truth unto themselves, when it simply never was given.

It more or less began with the Bishop of Rome, claiming Peters authority, creating a non-existent office of "Pope", claiming an authority he never was given. If he had been given it, he would have been an Apostle, just as Paul became an Apostle, by revelation, and then by ordination of one in authority. Of course, they already knew the Church was going into apostasy, so the authority didn't continue. Anyway, some thoughts.

[Jeff K.]

It is my belief that many are saved who do not even call them self Christian. The largest group are the Jews but I believe many more groups as well. For me I believe with all my heart that God's will is to save as many as He can. And knowing God I trust that He will accomplish His goals. Who am I to stand and object? It appears to me that the only ones not saved will be those who know God but reject Him.

While all will be resurrected, exhaltation is only for those who take upon themselves the name of Christ. The particulars of where and when may be up for debate, but in the end one will indeed become Christian. Otherwise there is no need for priesthood, and the atonement was of little consequence since God's will is to save as many as He can.

I also think God's love is to save as many as will come unto Him, and God can only save those who choose to be saved. So it is not necessarily God's will to save us, but our will to accept salvation. It is the price we pay for the agency we have.

[Franktalk]

According to Ephesians 4:11-14, doctrine comes from the Church organization. The LDS Church is the only Church that seems to match that organization and also to be in Biblical harmony.

I agree that the LDS Church is the only one structured correctly and I have no problem with our prophet. Yet I see scripture being opened in the last year. I have talked to some who feel the same. Why is it that the Church is not talking about this? Am I wrong and scripture is not opening up? If indeed we are at the end times should we not be talking about a plan? It is almost as if the Church leadership is afraid to rock the boat. Or maybe our role is limited to the ordinances. It sure would be good to know.

The point in this thread is to show how a church and membership can make huge mistakes. I think it is healthy to ask questions of our own Church.

[Franktalk]

While all will be resurrected, exhaltation is only for those who take upon themselves the name of Christ. The particulars of where and when may be up for debate, but in the end one will indeed become Christian. Otherwise there is no need for priesthood, and the atonement was of little consequence since God's will is to save as many as He can.

I also think God's love is to save as many as will come unto Him, and God can only save those who choose to be saved. So it is not necessarily God's will to save us, but our will to accept salvation. It is the price we pay for the agency we have.

I once thought the same way. But then I read Romans 10 and 11 a few dozen times and have concluded that God has special cases. The blindness of the Jews to the gospel changes their path to being saved. I think we are to know this and act in their interest. I will post some comments about Romans.

A Commentary on Romans 10 and 11

One of the ways some people view scripture is to take the promises given to the Jews and give them to the Christian Church. This is called Replacement Theology. This commentary opposes this view of scripture.

This Commentary is my opinion and each of us can follow our own heart and follow our own interpretation. Now I believe that what Paul wrote was inspired by God, every word of it. So when I say Paul wrote I actually mean the Spirit of God wrote through Paul. I do not believe that these words need to be looked at through some ancient word filter. I think the Words are timeless just like God. The book of Romans was written for; Rom 1:7 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:” So for our purposes he is writing this for the believing Christian.

Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Here Paul is describing his desire to have his fellow Jews come to the knowledge of Christ so they may worship God in the fullness of Christ and the Holy Ghost. The Jews still have a zeal for God but Paul wishes them to obtain the mercy and love of Christ that Paul knows. Notice that Israel refers to Jews and no one else. Notice that the word saved is separate from a zeal for God. So one can believe in God yet not be “saved”. Saved is a formal term that applies to knowledge of Christ and accepting Him by faith. The Jews can still believe in Christ but they know Him by Yahweh. They are righteous in their knowledge of Yahweh but not righteous by their knowledge of Christ. Yet they are still righteous and still faithful to God. In their own knowledge and own belief.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Here Paul is saying that the law of righteousness is now ended for all those who believe in Christ. Notice he does not say the law is ended.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here we see a difference between faith and the law. Moses taught the law and the Jews were to live by the law. But with the knowledge of Christ then faith leads to being saved. Notice it does not say that the Jews following the law are damned. It does indicate that the Jews who follow the law will be ashamed at some time for missing the message. And of course it states that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And what are the names of the Lord? Yahweh, Redeemer (Job 19:25), Seed of the Woman (Gen 3:15), Messiah (Dan 9:25), He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks (Rev 2:1), The Creator (Ecc 12 :1), and of course many others. Faith in God and knowledge of Jesus are two different things. Faith and knowledge of Jesus leads to confession and then being saved. Faith in God alone is righteousness.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

People will be called to preach the Gospel. And they will put on the armor of God which includes the feet which are shod with the Gospel of peace (Eph 6:15). This is great but it implies a question. What is to happen to those who do not hear the Gospel? They may have faith but no knowledge, does their faith keep them from being grouped with nonbelievers? I think it does. Knowledge or the lack of knowledge does not save. It is faith that saves. To call upon the Creator is to call Christ. When Paul said that the Greeks worshipped Christ as the unknown God was he lying to them or did he in fact declare the faith of the Greeks valid? I think he was in support of their quest to know God. So did the Greeks worship Christ without knowledge?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias (Isaiah) saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Here Paul is saying that some will receive the report (knowledge) and some will not. Some will take the knowledge of Christ and believe, then confess and then be saved. But others will not see the knowledge as truth so they will stay with their zeal for the God of Abraham. They will remain in the law of Moses. They will reject the knowledge even after being told by Moses they would suffer jealousy from a foolish nation. It was the lack of faith that made God angry. It was idol worship that made God angry. Yet in the time of Christ it was the religious Jews who rejected the knowledge of Christ. So did God harden their hearts so they would not see the truth of the knowledge of Christ? Was this a judgment on earth due to their fathers who worshipped idols? I can not say but the words of Moses seem like a judgment. (Deu 32:21) But the Jews were punished because they were not ready for the Messiah when He came. This seems to me to indicate that the Jews were not hardened by God but made them self hardened with self righteousness.

Romans 11 (King James Version)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here Paul is setting the stage for what follows. He is describing a time in which Israel was worshipping idols and killing its prophets. So faith in the true God fell to the side and the world for that moment held Israel. But God had a remnant of seven thousand which would be the seed for the future. The OT is full of times in which Israel followed God and other times in which they did not. But God always had a plan to save Israel. I believe this is true today and was true when Paul was writing the Book of Romans. The first sentence in this section tells us that God has not cast away Israel. These verses that follow in Romans are the details of that plan to save the Jews (Israel).

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This does not say that works were ended for Israel. I think what it is saying is that some Jews came to Christ and through grace were saved and no longer lived in works. But those who were not elected were blinded and remain under works. They were blinded to the Gospel so they would not be held accountable. Those that through faith believed in the God of Abraham were and are still part of the olive tree. This tree of faith that has its roots with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The olive tree is the faithful Jews.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Here it continues with the theme that the Jews have been blocked from understanding. In verse 11 it asks the question. “Have they stumbled that they should fall?” And the answer is “God forbid” Then it continues describing the fall of the Jews and how that opens up an avenue for the Gentiles. So the Gospel was given to the Gentiles with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But verse 12 ends by saying that the Jews obtained a fulness because of the opportunity given to the Gentiles. A fulness is not being broken off the tree.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Obviously Paul would prefer to have the Jews come to Christ and not be blinded; in verse 14 I think this is clear. Now in verse 15 it asks a question, it does not say the Jews are cast away from the tree of faith but cast away in the sense that they would not accept the Gospel. This nonbelief in the Gospel is what allowed the “reconciling of the world”. The second part of verse 15 asks what will be the result if they are brought back, the obvious answer that they are saved from spiritual death. But how can this be done? By their blindness. They are brought back to the tree of faith by their faith in God not the Gospel. When this tree is viewed as a tree of faith then the root, first fruits, the lump, and branches are Holy. Some by the Gospel and some by faith in the God of Abraham. Remember that the root was there before Christ came to the earth as man.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This is a warning by God not to get to full of ourselves. We (Gentiles) are only here because God allowed us to be grafted in. Remember we are not a new tree. The root is still the faithful Fathers. It is the Jewish tree of faith that we are attached to. The fallen branches are those who do not believe in God or they worship idols. But God says that if they turn that around they will be reattached. We are not to boast against the natural branches. But replacement theology is the ultimate boast, it replaces Israel. It takes away the tree, the root, the history and makes the olive tree the Church.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now Paul is announcing in clear terms that a mystery is being revealed so pay attention. He also tells us who will not get the message. Those who consider themselves wise and are full of conceits. The message is that the blindness on Israel will stay until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So in verse 7 and again here in verse 25 the blindness is highlighted. I would suspect that this is important. Now when is the fullness of the Gentiles over? See Luke 21:24, it is over when Gentiles no longer walk around Jerusalem. This obviously means that the blindness continues to this day. Notice that the term Israel is being used for the blinded Jews (in part). So the term Israel is for the elect and the blinded Jews.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

All Israel will be saved is a bold statement. I have to assume it has to do with the prior verses and the blindness cast on them. If they did not know better then they could be saved is the message. Obviously taking away their sins, which is Christ choice clears the way for all of them to be saved. This is not the Church, the reference to Jacob is clear and Israel is Israel. But how can the Deliverer save them if they are blind to the Deliverer? That mystery is revealed.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So the blindness of the Gospel makes the Jews (they) disagree with “your” Church. But they are to be loved because of the special relationship He has with them. To make sure that there is no misunderstanding Paul says that the promises (gifts) and the “calling” will not be taken away.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

We obtained mercy because the Jews rejected the Gospel. This defines the unbelief as rejection of the Gospel. Scripture tells us that we obtain mercy when we give it to others. It is not too much to ask that we give mercy to blind Jews concerning the Gospel. It seems that the act somehow in God’s mind allows the Jews to obtain mercy. The Church acts as a conduit to the Deliverer so that they can be saved, they can have their sins taken away. This allows the Jews to have their sins taken away even though they don’t have a Temple and are not sacrificing animals. But we read that the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices will resume. I suspect that when the Church is raptured the Temple will be standing. Without the Church the conduit is removed so the Jews will have to follow their historical rites. This view explains the restarting of the sacrifices.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The blindness to the Gospel causes unbelief in the Gospel. But through the Church asking for mercy for the Jews they obtain mercy and have their sins taken away by Christ the Deliverer. The Bible has a few examples of a third party acting as a bridge of faith to another. A good one is Dan 9.

Verse 33 tells us that we will not know the depth of God’s wisdom concerning this matter. So I just accept it that all Jews will receive mercy. At least the ones still on the olive tree that do not have belief in the Gospel but a belief in God.

[Franktalk]

LDSfaqs,

I see the elect obtaining faith by some method. Then knowledge based on scripture. Then a witness from the Holy Ghost. Then they are to seek the authority in the Church for the ordinances.

[Deborah]

You weren't the only one scratching their head on that one 3DOP. I'm not really sure what his point is.

Having read through this I'm not sure what the point is either.

Franktalk, can you summarize in a couple of sentences what point you are making?

[Franktalk]

Having read through this I'm not sure what the point is either.

Franktalk, can you summarize in a couple of sentences what point you are making?

I would be happy to. There are huge consequences to misinterpreting scripture. Or ignoring scripture. In the case of the Jews in 32 AD they did not take Daniel seriously. They should have all been at the gate of Jerusalem when Christ arrived. Then shortly after the Apostles died the early church misinterpreted Peter as the church. This leads to the need to re-establish the church. But these are historical. We can and should learn from them. But have we? Another major event that is clearly described in scripture is on our doorstep. Are we going to make the same kinds of mistakes?

If we can't talk about the fall of the church because we may hurt some feelings then we are done. We have lost before we start. How many times are we told to check scripture? The patterns of epic failures in reading scripture should tell us something. The fall of Jerusalem was 1.5 million dead. The apostate church 10's of millions. The 70th week of Daniel maybe billions.

The LDS church is right on with its teaching that each person needs to develop a relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit. But I want to know just what percentage of the church is that in tune with the Holy Ghost? My guess 50%. And of those how many know how to test a spirit? Or even that we are supposed to. Let us say for argument sake that 50% of the church is weak spiritually. And their faith rest in knowledge or tradition. Is there some knowledge that we can share with these people to help them. I know that the end will come and Satan will do many things. My concern is are we doing all we can to help those who need knowledge? Will knowledge help the spiritually weak? I don't know. If the Church were to be turned upside down but we saved one person from taking the mark of the beast it would be worth it.

I have taken on end time prophecy as a study. One of the things I know is that Christ is not allowed to return until a number is reached in end time martyrs. What if we find out after the fact that we could have influenced that number (by rate) if we had really pushed the knowledge of end times events. What if we find out that millions took the mark that would not have if we had just been more active in passing along end times knowledge. I know that I preach to the choir on these boards. But maybe the choir needs to sing a tune of end time knowledge.

[Deborah]

My concern is are we doing all we can to help those who need knowledge?

So what is it you propose "we" do. We really have no authority to teach except in our callings. The best thing we can do is be examples of living the gospel. No doubt the leaders of the church are aware of what is needed, but I don't think it's knowledge of the scripture so much as living by the Spirit. Scripture study yes, but what you seem to be suggesting is a scholarly study by every lay member. I know many who don't have a great knowledge of scriptures but are very in tune with what they should be doing and many who have a great knowledge but lack the spirit.

When Pres. Hinckley admonished the saints a few years ago to read the BOM cover to cover by year's end, he wasn't asking for an in depth study but to read it like a regular book just to feel the spirit and bring a unity of the members. I think many can testify that happened.

[Franktalk]

Deborah,

There was a boy at one time that grew up in ancient Israel. His job was to tend the sheep and protect them. One day he was called on to protect the sheep from a lion. He did not run for help. He used the tools available to slay the lion and protect the sheep. It was his job. Now I ask, did someone tell him that he was to slay lions? Or did they say protect the sheep? It is my opinion that this young man knew his responsibilities. Later in life he came to a camp where the men were all afraid of a warrior that had attacked them. The young man knew that God had chosen the Jews and looked over Israel. So with righteous determination he set out to destroy the warrior that so upset the ranks of soldiers. He faced an enemy much larger than himself. He slew the warrior. He later became King of Israel.

Are we to have righteous determination or are we to wait for a calling of Church leaders? If we have a talent of gold are we to bury it? I think scripture is filled with examples of people who did not wait. Moses saw a distant light and set out for it. The righteous determination of Saul set him on the road to Damascus.

I talk about the end times with anyone who will listen.

[Ahab]

Any church which rest its authority on Peter is an apostate church.

The true Church of Christ doesn't believe the authority rests upon Peter. The true Church believes God gave the authority to Jesus who in turn gave some of it to Peter through the keys he was given to regulate the kingdom of God on this Earth. That (priesthood) authority is actual power from God, and it is actually good for something.

The body of Christ His bride are the people of faith who believe on Him.

Believing is not enough. The beliefs must be based on the truth and those beliefs must motivate a person into action... like being baptized properly by someone with the authority to baptize... otherwise the beliefs are dead and good for nothing.

The church should be a structure to accomplish the goals of the members.

No, to accomplish the goals of God. God wants us all to be saved but to be saved we must believe correctly and follow up those correct beliefs with correct actions, like baptism, and repentance, and allowing someone to lay their hands upon your head with faith they have been given authority from God to do what they are doing.

If you say No to baptism into our Lord's church by those who are authorized to bring you into it, then you're saying No to the gate whereby you become a member of our Lord's kingdom on this Earth.

Again... you not only have to believe correctly, but you also have to follow up those correct beliefs with correct actions.

But many churches are upside down. The members work for the leadership of the church for the survival of the church.

It all depends upon who the leadership of the Church really is. If the leadership includes God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, which they do in the true Church of Christ, then there's nothing at all wrong with working for them and for the survival of the church... as well as the spread of that church as more people come unto it.

If the leadership of a church doesn't include them, however, then you're just joining a social club with some structure while believing it is something more than it is.

The church has no value at all.

The true church does, and the ones that aren't the true church still have some value in the form of the people who are members of those churches.

The worth in the church is the members.

Yep, and Satan wants members in his churches as much as Jesus wants members in his... although for different reasons.

Has Christ at any time said He loved a building?

A church is an organization of people. It's not the building you go to for your meetings.

Did He say He loved a stone?

The stone Peter received was revelation from God, and Yes Jesus does love the word of God.

He does love His bride.

His church is his bride, and his church consists of people.

[Franktalk]

The true Church of Christ doesn't believe the authority rests upon Peter. The true Church believes God gave the authority to Jesus who in turn gave some of it to Peter through the keys he was given to regulate the kingdom of God on this Earth. That (priesthood) authority is actual power from God, and it is actually good for something.

Once a group of men thought that a man could stand between you and God then all was lost. The early church assumed that they could change scripture if in their eyes it made the church grow. They shifted the priorities from a direct relationship with God to one in which the church was the focus.

Believing is not enough. The beliefs must be based on the truth and those beliefs must motivate a person into action... like being baptized properly by someone with the authority to baptize... otherwise the beliefs are dead and good for nothing.

Believing in God is enough. Not for everything but it is enough. Faith is key. Let me ask you, who baptized Abraham? I have faith that what ever was needed was done for each person down through history. I trust God.

No, to accomplish the goals of God. God wants us all to be saved but to be saved we must believe correctly and follow up those correct beliefs with correct actions, like baptism, and repentance, and allowing someone to lay their hands upon your head with faith they have been given authority from God to do what they are doing.

If you say No to baptism into our Lord's church by those who are authorized to bring you into it, then you're saying No to the gate whereby you become a member of our Lord's kingdom on this Earth.

Again... you not only have to believe correctly, but you also have to follow up those correct beliefs with correct actions.

You are correct. I should have said that the goals of the members as directed by the Holy Spirit. But the actions are somewhat dependent on when you live.

It all depends upon who the leadership of the Church really is. If the leadership includes God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, which they do in the true Church of Christ, then there's nothing at all wrong with working for them and for the survival of the church... as well as the spread of that church as more people come unto it.

If the leadership of a church doesn't include them, however, then you're just joining a social club with some structure while believing it is something more than it is.

No man can lead God's Church. But the Holy Ghost can lead a man to do the right things as a leader in the Church. And of course the members can confirm his words as correct by the Holy Ghost as well. Our only blind acceptance is from God.

A church is an organization of people. It's not the building you go to for your meetings.

His church is his bride, and his church consists of people.

I agree.