Why Choose Outer Darkness

[cdowis]

cdowis posted:

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice. They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon. I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation. One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

So, you're back to saying that people choose where to go in the end, eh? So, answer me this: if people had a choice where to go (as you say they do) why on earth would someone choose to remain in outer darkness for all of eternity? I mean, given the choice between being happy and being tortured for all of eternity, I would think that most people would tend to choose being happy, even if they did choose to reject the ironically called "plan of happiness" in the preexistence and were consigned by God into an eternity of never ending torment. But, maybe Satan and his angels are masochists?

cdowis responds:

It is because God is merciful.

I have made my suggestion and one makes the decision to remain in spiritual ignorance and darkness, or whether one will be enlightened with the spirit. That is the choice each and everyone of us faces here on this earth.

The scriptures explain that we would be most miserable living with a Holy Father when we are filthy, than to abide with those who are in the same condition. True h** is to live with God with the consciousness of our guilt. It is in His mercy that we live where we chose to live. The mental anguish would be too great to bear.

We go to where we are most comfortable, where we "belong", and for some, that is with Satan.

To answer your question, their condition (you call it "torture") is preferable to the alternative. Going to a higher kingdom is greater torture or mental anguish (which is the definition of h***)

Edited July 18, 2011 by cdowis

[Jeff K.]

Pride is a driving force, or ego if you will. When we give into it, there is nothing we won't do to justify ourselves. Even rejecting God.

My monicker below...

You will rise or fall to the kingdom within which you feel the greatest comfort."

Edited July 18, 2011 by Jeff K.

[thesometimesaint]

keith_brian:

Because God will not force us to be, or to become anything we don't want to be. He would cease to be God if he did.

Edited July 18, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[rameumptom]

How do we know that Outer Darkness is an "everlasting torment" for sons of perdition? Perhaps it is the best they are willing to receive, because they fully reject Christ as their Savior.

I see the punishment of individuals being done in the Spirit Prison h***, solely as an effort to get them to repent and be saved from outer darkness. They suffer even as Christ suffered until they repent. Those who refuse to repent will go to outer darkness, as there is no other kingdom available for them.

Outer Darkness is just a kingdom, a place to dwell. It is one without the glory of God, but exists with the light of Christ.

Whether there is escape from one kingdom to another is something I still keep an open mind on. I'm not fully convinced from my reading of the scriptures that a person is forever locked into a specific kingdom. That said, I cannot say it isn't the case, either. These are speculative concepts for both sides. What we do know, and what I do teach is that the safer bet is to believe that we have only one chance for celestial glory and should not risk it by taking a chance that there will be more opportunities to gain it later.

[cdowis]

Conduct a simple experiment:

Go to a Baptist church and spend the Sunday going to the meeting and mingling with the people. Do this for another week.

Now think about this question: would you like to spend eternity with these people? As Peter Frampton said, "Do you want to live forever with these (explicative deleted)?"

How would Hitler feel about living for eternity with his victims.

h*** is a preparation period where we pay the price for our sins -- it is a temporary state where we feel emotional anguish for what we have done. Hitler sees with a perfect vision of the impact of what he did. And then comes the judgement and we go to the kingdom prepared for us.

[LeSellers]

Outer Darkness is just a kingdom, a place to dwell. It is one without the glory of God, but exists with the light of Christ.

I do not accept this. We call it "Outer Darkness" for a reason.

Lehi

[Darth_Bill]

Conduct a simple experiment:

Go to a Baptist church and spend the Sunday going to the meeting and mingling with the people. Do this for another week.

Now think about this question: would you like to spend eternity with these people? As Peter Frampton said, "Do you want to live forever with these (explicative deleted)?"

How would Hitler feel about living for eternity with his victims.

Not sure about the Hitler concept. I wouldn't have liked being in the same eternity as a few of my ex-girlfriends either, but eternity hinges on forgiveness. I'm thinking a different perspective changes things. With the "problem of pain" issue, I'm sometimes not sure about living with G-- either. I think it will require more faith and knowledge than I currently possess.

I'm also not sure the the appropriatness of the "Baptist" comment. I have my questions about the people in my ward and I hope heaven is big enough that I don't have to hang with them. I'm sure some feel the same about me.

[cdowis]

I'm also not sure the the appropriatness of the "Baptist" comment.

And what comment did I make?

I love the Baptist church, and have visited there several times. I encouraged my daughter to attend the one closest to her (since she did not want to go to the LDS church). But there are those who do not share my sentiment and they would be uncomfortable with them.

[Stargazer]

And what comment did I make?

I love the Baptist church, and have visited there several times. I encouraged my daughter to attend the one closest to her (since she did not want to go to the LDS church). But there are those who do not share my sentiment and they would be uncomfortable with them.

Well, in context with the rest of your post (and there wasn't enough alternative context to suggest otherwise), it sounded like you were comparing Hitler in the presence of his victims with someone else in the presence of a Baptist congregation.

I was wondering myself what sins the Baptists had committed to make you express such a comparison, but your clarifying remarks here makes clear that you weren't making yourself clear.

[CV75]

We go to where we are most comfortable, where we "belong", and for some, that is with Satan.

People follow Satan for the same reasons his proposal was so attractive to so many in the pre-existence—getting something of far greater value, such a power and gain, for relatively far less or no effort (the same philosophy underlying the secret combinations).

Another way to look at it is choosing to give one’s agency to Satan rather than to God (giving it to the former for immediate temporal gratification; or to the latter for eternal gratification). When one gives his agency to Satan, he loses it, but when he gives it to God, he finds more of it (Matthew 10:39 and 16:25). Agency is existence (D&C 93:30). Outer darkness would be the complete extinguishing of eternal agency--agency so reduced and degraded that it could support no degree of telestial/terrestrial/celestial glory whatsoever.

[Ahab]

cdowis posted:

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice. They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon. I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation. One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

cdowis responds:

It is because God is merciful.

I have made my suggestion and one makes the decision to remain in spiritual ignorance and darkness, or whether one will be enlightened with the spirit. That is the choice each and everyone of us faces here on this earth.

The scriptures explain that we would be most miserable living with a Holy Father when we are filthy, than to abide with those who are in the same condition. True h** is to live with God with the consciousness of our guilt. It is in His mercy that we live where we chose to live. The mental anguish would be too great to bear.

We go to where we are most comfortable, where we "belong", and for some, that is with Satan.

To answer your question, their condition (you call it "torture") is preferable to the alternative. Going to a higher kingdom is greater torture or mental anguish (which is the definition of h***)

I think it might help if you went into a little more detail to explain exactly how people choose to go to outer darkness, or wherever they go.

Most often than not it's not because people think something like: Yeah, sure, send me to outer darkness, or to a lower order of glory than the Celestial.

More often than not it's simply because people refuse to accept what it would take for them to go to another place in God's kingdom.

[Flyonthewall]

I always tell my kids that they cannot choose their consequences, they can only choose their behavior. And as the hymn goes...Do what is right let the consequence follow...

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Pride is a driving force, or ego if you will. When we give into it, there is nothing we won't do to justify ourselves. Even rejecting God.

Nicely put.

Ego. Arrogance. Pride. The SELF above all.

[keith_brian]

cdowis posted:

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice. They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon. I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation. One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

cdowis responds:

It is because God is merciful.

I have made my suggestion and one makes the decision to remain in spiritual ignorance and darkness, or whether one will be enlightened with the spirit. That is the choice each and everyone of us faces here on this earth.

The scriptures explain that we would be most miserable living with a Holy Father when we are filthy, than to abide with those who are in the same condition. True h** is to live with God with the consciousness of our guilt. It is in His mercy that we live where we chose to live. The mental anguish would be too great to bear.

We go to where we are most comfortable, where we "belong", and for some, that is with Satan.

To answer your question, their condition (you call it "torture") is preferable to the alternative. Going to a higher kingdom is greater torture or mental anguish (which is the definition of h***)

Okay, so I'm still a little fuzzy on this point, which was the whole point of my original question: why would anyone, given a choice, choose to live out existence in eternal torment and, more importantly, why would God choose not to end that suffering? You saying that God is merciful because they could be exposed to even a WORSE form of torture is not one that I find very reassuring. It's like telling a little boy that, "I know that you're suffering with cancer, but it could have been worse. You could have been burned alive."

If God is a god and is good, as LDS people claim, then I don't know why he can't act to end the suffering of these poor creatures. And, from a logical perspective, how does acting to alleviate the suffering of anyone really somehow disqualify God from a continued existence as God? I mean, is it evil to act to end suffering from which there is no possible escape, even when it goes against the will of the creature suffering? From how I understand it, the whole Mormon concept of the "plan of happiness" hinges around the concept of people being allowed to make their own choices in life so that they can learn to eventually make choices that lead them to greater happiness. But, what happens if these people fail? What happens if, for whatever reason, they have chosen a course in life that leads them to a place where they are in a miser that they can never escape? To me, when someone reaches that point, it would be better for God to step in and end the suffering through whatever means necessary, including using his power to directly contradict the will of the person suffering.

Edited July 18, 2011 by keith_brian

[fatherofone]

Okay, so I'm still a little fuzzy on this point, which was the whole point of my original question: why would anyone, given a choice, choose to live out existence in eternal torment and, more importantly, why would God choose not to end that suffering? You saying that God is merciful because they could be exposed to even a WORSE form of torture is not one that I find very reassuring. It's like telling a little boy that, "I know that you're suffering with cancer, but it could have been worse. You could have been burned alive."

If God is a god and is good, as LDS people claim, then I don't know why he can't act to end the suffering of these poor creatures. And, from a logical perspective, how does acting to alleviate the suffering of anyone really somehow disqualify God from a continued existence as God? I mean, is it evil to act to end suffering from which there is no possible escape, even when it goes against the will of the creature suffering? From how I understand it, the whole Mormon concept of the "plan of happiness" hinges around the concept of people being allowed to make their own choices in life so that they can learn to eventually make choices that lead them to greater happiness. But, what happens if these people fail? What happens if, for whatever reason, they have chosen a course in life that leads them to a place where they are in a miser that they can never escape? To me, when someone reaches that point, it would be better for God to step in and end the suffering through whatever means necessary, including using his power to directly contradict the will of the person suffering.

this has always been my question, and the answers usually range from to prove you, to increase your faith, etc.......but I am with you, if god is this loving all powerful parent, then why does he not step in and end suffering

[LeSellers]

Okay, so I'm still a little fuzzy on this point, which was the whole point of my original question: why would anyone, given a choice, choose to live out existence in eternal torment and, more importantly, why would God choose not to end that suffering? You saying that God is merciful because they could be exposed to even a WORSE form of torture is not one that I find very reassuring. It's like telling a little boy that, "I know that you're suffering with cancer, but it could have been worse. You could have been burned alive."

I don't know who told you that their suffering could have been worse, so that makes God merciful. That's not the point.

If God is a god and is good, as LDS people claim, then I don't know why he can't act to end the suffering of these poor creatures.

This is the crux of the problem. They are not suffering in any kingdom. Even those in Outer Darkness are not suffering in the sense you are using the word. They have chosen to be in Outer Darkness because that is the place where they are most "comfortable". They choose to be with Satan rather than with God. The prefer to "reign in hel1 as opposed to serving in heaven. They would be miserable in heaven.

Now, the Lord has told us their fate is not good. It is so bad, in fact, that he does not show it to us for more than a moment because it is misery from our perspective. But, from theirs, they are happy.

And, from a logical perspective, how does acting to alleviate the suffering of anyone really somehow disqualify God from a continued existence as God?

The nature of God is to allow the results of agency to take place. He does not interfere when the person refuses to allow it.

Lehi

Edited July 19, 2011 by LeSellers

[fatherofone]

I don't know who told you that their suffering cold have been worse, so that make God merciful. That's not the poijnt.

This is the crux of the problem. They are not suffering in any kingdom. Even thouse in Outer Darkness are not suffering in the sense you are using the word. They have chosen to be in Outer Darkness because that is the place where they are most "comfortable". They choose to be with Satan rather than with God. The prefer to "reign in hel1 as opposed to serving in heaven. They would be miserable in heaven.

Now, the Lord has told us their fate is not good. It is so bad, in fact, that he does not show it to us for more than a moment because it is misery from our perspective. But, from theirs, they are happy.

The nature of God is to allow the results of agency to take place. He does not interfer when the person refuses to allow it.

Lehi

I think I get what you are saying, but why do scriptures paint hel1 as such a bad and undesirable place then, if it is not bad to those that chose it...scare tactic?

[keith_brian]

I don't know who told you that their suffering cold have been worse, so that make God merciful. That's not the poijnt.

I agree. The point is that God chooses not to end suffering, whatever the degree.

This is the crux of the problem. They are not suffering in any kingdom. Even thouse in Outer Darkness are not suffering in the sense you are using the word. They have chosen to be in Outer Darkness because that is the place where they are most "comfortable". They choose to be with Satan rather than with God. The prefer to "reign in hel1 as opposed to serving in heaven. They would be miserable in heaven.

Now, the Lord has told us their fate is not good. It is so bad, in fact, that he does not show it to us for more than a moment because it is misery from our perspective. But, from theirs, they are happy.

The nature of God is to allow the results of agency to take place. He does not interfer when the person refuses to allow it.

Lehi

Wow.

Did you just say what I think you said?

You're claiming that the people in Outer Darkness are actually HAPPY? Wait, what?! Lol.

I have no idea how you could get that from the LDS scriptures, at least not the ones that I used to read. D&C 76 is about as explicit as one can get about how badly God is going to punish these people, and this view is backed up by all sources of LDS ancient and modern scripture of which I am aware. To claim that the people in Outer Darkness are somehow happy is about the single grossest distortion of LDS doctrine for apologetic reasons that I've ever heard. I just don't know where in all of LDS scriptures you could get the idea that people that God sends to Outer Darkness are going there for any other reason than to be eternally punished by the same god.

Just wow.

[Darth_Bill]

I apologize if I missunderstood your meaning on the Frampton comment when used in the same paragraph as the baptists.

I also stand by my comment about the same situation in an LDS foyer. Why would someone spend eternity with those people either? I'm sure heaven has it's own share of annoying people too, unless it is burned out of them, or forgiven of them. Either way, I'm still not sure what the point is.

I'll have to pass on further conversation, I guess. I'm having my own share of judgemental people issues right now.

[Ahab]

Okay, so I'm still a little fuzzy on this point, which was the whole point of my original question: why would anyone, given a choice, choose to live out existence in eternal torment and, more importantly, why would God choose not to end that suffering?

The choice people make is evident by their beliefs and their behavior which is an outward expression of their beliefs, also including the rejection of certain other beliefs and behaviors.

We can teach you all you need to know about what you need to do to go to the Celestial kingdom, but if you reject certain beliefs and don't conform your own life to proper behaviors then by your actions you will be rejecting what it would take for you to go to the Celestial kingdom, and by your own actions you will have made another choice.

You saying that God is merciful because they could be exposed to even a WORSE form of torture is not one that I find very reassuring. It's like telling a little boy that, "I know that you're suffering with cancer, but it could have been worse. You could have been burned alive."

Well, I'm usually one that likes to look at the bright side of things, myself, so if by your own actions you end up in the Telestial kingdom I'll be looking at your fate while thinking that at least you're going there instead of a place that is even worse.... and who knows, maybe you'll like it there since there would be other people like you there, too.

Your own actions will determine your fate, including how much you will choose to follow Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

If God is a god and is good, as LDS people claim, then I don't know why he can't act to end the suffering of these poor creatures.

He can and he will for all of those who simply follow him and do what it takes to avoid suffering for our own sins.

For example, if we will repent when we know we should, we'll avoid suffering for our sins as Jesus had to suffer. If we don't repent, though, we'll suffer as he did.

It's our own choice.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Ahab

[Ahab]

I agree. The point is that God chooses not to end suffering, whatever the degree.

Wow.

Did you just say what I think you said?

You're claiming that the people in Outer Darkness are actually HAPPY? Wait, what?! Lol.

I have no idea how you could get that from the LDS scriptures, at least not the ones that I used to read. D&C 76 is about as explicit as one can get about how badly God is going to punish these people, and this view is backed up by all sources of LDS ancient and modern scripture of which I am aware. To claim that the people in Outer Darkness are somehow happy is about the single grossest distortion of LDS doctrine for apologetic reasons that I've ever heard. I just don't know where in all of LDS scriptures you could get the idea that people that God sends to Outer Darkness are going there for any other reason than to be eternally punished by the same god.

Just wow.

Misery never was and never will be true happiness, but most people who give in to their "dark" side actually like the "dark" side and they wouldn't be what THEY consider to be "happy" if they had to give up some of their favorite sins.

That's the point he was trying to get across, I think.

Go out and ask people in the world who sin if they would like to give up their sins to be able to go to heaven, and most of them will tell you they either don't think their sins are real sins or that they're so small and petty God would surely forgive them for them even though they are not repenting from them.

Talk about mass delusion. Satan has a lot of people in darkness.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Ahab

[keith_brian]

Misery never was and never will be true happiness, but most people who give in to their "dark" side actually like the "dark" side and they wouldn't be what THEY consider to be "happy" if they had to give up some of their favorite sins.

That's the point he was trying to get across, I think.

Go out and ask people in the world who sin if they would like to give up their sins to be able to go to heaven, and most of them will tell you they either don't think their sins are real sins or that they're so small and petty God would surely forgive them for them even though they are not repenting from them.

Talk about mass delusion. Satan has a lot of people in darkness.

That still avoids the question of whether God has a duty to end ultimate suffering in Outer Darkness. I think that a moral god would be obligated to end this suffering.

[bluebell]

That still avoids the question of whether God has a duty to end ultimate suffering in Outer Darkness. I think that a moral god would be obligated to end this suffering.

If the suffering is moral then can a moral God end it?

[keith_brian]

If the suffering is moral then can a moral God end it?

Is suffering that has an infinite duration moral?

[LeSellers]

The point is that God chooses not to end suffering, whatever the degree.

You keep assuming the people want the "suffering" to end. They do not. "Why?" you (and I) may ask. It's because they prefer it to "serving in heaven".

They are called sons of perdition for a reason. They love their "father": perdition, aka Satan. On the other hand, they hate God.

Were God to change that, He would have to change them, and He would have to do it against their will. That would be against His nature.

Keep in mind that He respects our agency so much that He preferred letting Lucifer and those who followed him go to hel1, in spite of His loving them because they are/were His children rather than intervene. He cannot abrogate our agency or He would cease to be God.

To be in heaven would be, for them, an intolerable punishment, no matter how much more "pleasant" it might be, physically.

Did you just say what I think you said?

I cannot answer that because I do not know what you think I said.

You're claiming that the people in Outer Darkness are actually HAPPY?

They are happy in their own minds. And that's all that matters.

I have no idea how you could get that from the LDS scriptures, at least not the ones that I used to read. D&C 76 is about as explicit as one can get about how badly God is going to punish these people, and this view is backed up by all sources of LDS ancient and modern scripture of which I am aware. To claim that the people in Outer Darkness are somehow happy is about the single grossest distortion of LDS doctrine for apologetic reasons that I've ever heard. I just don't know where in all of LDS scriptures you could get the idea that people that God sends to Outer Darkness are going there for any other reason than to be eternally punished by the same god.

Then you do not understand LDS scriptures very well.

Each of us will receive the eternal reward we do, not solely because we deserve it, but because that reward is what we have prepared ourselves for.

Those who obtain the Celestial kingdom are Celestial people. They became Celestial by doing Celestial things.

Those who receive the Terrestrial are Terrestrial because they do Terrestrial things.

Those who are Telestial will go to the Telestial kingdom.

Those who will have aligned themselves with Satan will have become Satanic. They cannot be happy in any place that has any connection with God—not With Father, not with Christ, not with the Holy Ghost.

You would not be happy there. I would not be. I doubt anyone reading these words could possibly be comfortable in Outer Darkness, but they, by "virtue" of what they have made themselves into (that is, in the image of their god and father), cannot tolerate a kingdom of glory, and, given that total inability, are "happy", if only because anything more would be spiritually agonizing. But it is more than that: they actively want to be where they will be.

Lehi

Edited July 19, 2011 by LeSellers