Why Choose Outer Darkness

[Montgomery Price]

In my own consideration, why someone would choose the clearly inferior option remains an unsatisfied question with an elusive final answer.

The intermediate answer that one chooses where they feel they are most comfortable transfers focus to the following questions:

What determines what makes us comfortable?

If we have control in the matter, then why could it not be possible for every intelligence to be comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom?

If there is some element beyond our control which determines what makes us comfortable, then why don't we have control?

The ultimate question may be what makes an intelligence unique?

Edited July 19, 2011 by Montgomery Price

[LeSellers]

I think I get what you are saying, but why do scriptures paint hel1 as such a bad and undesirable place then, if it is not bad to those that chose it...scare tactic?

"Hel1", from an absolute perspective, is "bad and undesirable". (I'm talking about Outer Darkness here, not "he1l" as meant by Hebrew Sheol or the tomb or Greek Hades. It's not even "Gehenna". It's not "Spirit Prison".)

The point I'd make, if I were any good at conveying my thought, is that those who go there are not simple sinners. They have gone, in Dumbledore's words, beyond "the usual evil".

They wholly hate God. They completely reject Him and His will, despise Him and all that He is; they want evil to prevail, and they love Satan—they are truly sons of perdition, their father.

Lehi

[bluebell]

Is suffering that has an infinite duration moral?

As a mortal with limited knowledge on the subject, i don't have enough information or abilities to know the answer to that question.

Being purely philosophical about it though, i suppose i could ask in return, is happiness that has an infinite duration moral? And if it is, how can misery that has an infinite duration not be?

[bluebell]

In my own consideration, why someone would choose the clearly inferior option remains an unsatisfied question with an elusive final answer.

In a sense, we see people do this all the time. There's got to be a reason that the relapse numbers for people getting out of prison and going back in is so high, even though prison is clearly inferior to freedom in almost every way. It doesn't make sense to me, but it must make sense, in some way, to the people who keep ending up there.

There's obviously someting in our natures that cause us to sometimes knowingly choose the easier option, even when we know it's the inferior option. I'm guessing that part of our nature stays with some of us even after death.

[cdowis]

Those who will have aligned themselves with Satan will have become Satanic. They cannot be happy in any place that has any connection with God—not With Father, not with Christ, not with the Holy Ghost.

You would not be happy there. I would not be. I doubt anyone reading these words could possibly be comfortable in Outer Darkness, but they, by "virtue" of what they have made themselves into (that is, in the image of their god and father), cannot tolerate a kingdom of glory, and, given that total inability, are "happy", if only because anything more would be spiritually agonizing. But it is more than that: they actively want to be where they will be.

"Wickedness never was happiness.

These were offered the gift of salvation and exaltation. They not only rejected it, but trampled it under their feet and fought against the Holy One offering the gift. As you say, they cannot tolerate a kingdom where resides the Father, the Son, or even the Holy Ghost. They can only reside in misery in a special place prepared for them.

They have lost the ability to repent or to find happiness.

Even the Lord Himself cannot turn Satan into a Michael. That is impossible, violating the fundamental laws of the universe by which He Himself exists.

[keith_brian]

You keep assuming the people want the "suffering" to end. They do not. "Why?" you (and I) may ask. It's because they prefer it to "serving in heaven".

They are called sons of perdition for a reason. They love their "father": perdition, aka Satan. On the other hand, they hate God.

Were God to change that, He would have to change them, and He would have to do it against their will. That would be against His nature.

Keep in mind that He respects our agency so much that He preferred letting Lucifer and those who followed him go to hel1, in spite of His loving them because they are/were His children rather than intervene. He cannot abrogate our agency or He would cease to be God.

To be in heaven would be, for them, an intolerable punishment, no matter how much more "pleasant" it might be, physically.

I cannot answer that because I do not know what you think I said.

They are happy in their own minds. And that's all that matters.

Then you do not understand LDS scriptures very well.

Each of us will receive the eternal reward we do, not solely because we deserve it, but because that reward is what we have prepared ourselves for.

Those who obtain the Celestial kingdom are Celestial people. They became Celestial by doing Celestial things.

Those who receive the Terrestrial are Terrestrial because they do Terrestrial things.

Those who are Telestial will go to the Telestial kingdom.

Those who will have aligned themselves with Satan will have become Satanic. They cannot be happy in any place that has any connection with God—not With Father, not with Christ, not with the Holy Ghost.

You would not be happy there. I would not be. I doubt anyone reading these words could possibly be comfortable in Outer Darkness, but they, by "virtue" of what they have made themselves into (that is, in the image of their god and father), cannot tolerate a kingdom of glory, and, given that total inability, are "happy", if only because anything more would be spiritually agonizing. But it is more than that: they actively want to be where they will be.

Lehi

I think one of us certainly doesn't understand LDS doctrine ...

First, CRF for one GA or one verse of scripture that, taken in context, supports the idea that OD is anything other than a place to be punished without end (i.e. that people can actually be happy or want to be in OD). When you produce it, I will listen to the rest of your argument. If you need help, section 76 of the D & C talks a lot about OD. You should start there.

Second, if OD is a place of eternal suffering with no end possible, is it not the duty of a merciful and just God to somehow end this suffering, even at the apparent risk of his Godhood? If the only reason he hold back from ending suffering is because he will lose his Godhood, is this not a selfish reason on the part of God?

[rameumptom]

I never said Sons of Perdition would be happy. Or at least did not mean it that way. I said they would prefer (even insist on) a kingdom with no glory. In examining D&C 76 regarding the sons of perdition, it does say they will suffer. But it is because they are not redeemed by Christ, for they have refused salvation. They are miserable, because they are miserable. And given they will no longer have any power over the children of God, they will only have themselves to commiserate in misery.

From D&C 76 we read:

30And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

43Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

48Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

Their suffering they bring upon themselves, because they refuse the atonement of Christ. When it notes "everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment" it is regarding Everlasting and Endless and Eternal as names of God (see D&C 19). This punishment is that the light of God is withheld from them, so all they can do is view their own filth.

Note that we are never told that they will remain there forever and ever. Instead it notes that "no man knows". IT may be that there IS an end for them. Perhaps they can pay for their own sins, or perhaps dwelling through enough eternities of self-inflicted torment, they eventually come to the point of repenting and being saved in Christ. We just do not know, as God does not reveal it to us. However, to assume the Protestant idea that they literally burn in eternal fire and brimstone is not LDS belief. They suffer their own self-imposed torment by rejecting the atonement and refusing to be saved.

Edited July 19, 2011 by rameumptom

[keith_brian]

I never said Sons of Perdition would be happy. Or at least did not mean it that way. I said they would prefer (even insist on) a kingdom with no glory. In examining D&C 76 regarding the sons of perdition, it does say they will suffer. But it is because they are not redeemed by Christ, for they have refused salvation. They are miserable, because they are miserable. And given they will no longer have any power over the children of God, they will only have themselves to commiserate in misery.

From D&C 76 we read:

Their suffering they bring upon themselves, because they refuse the atonement of Christ. When it notes "everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment" it is regarding Everlasting and Endless and Eternal as names of God (see D&C 19). This punishment is that the light of God is withheld from them, so all they can do is view their own filth.

Note that we are never told that they will remain there forever and ever. Instead it notes that "no man knows". IT may be that there IS an end for them. Perhaps they can pay for their own sins, or perhaps dwelling through enough eternities of self-inflicted torment, they eventually come to the point of repenting and being saved in Christ. We just do not know, as God does not reveal it to us. However, to assume the Protestant idea that they literally burn in eternal fire and brimstone is not LDS belief. They suffer their own self-imposed torment by rejecting the atonement and refusing to be saved.

I am glad to see that you conceded my first point, that OD is a place of punishment and can't be construed as anything but that in Mormon theology.

On the topic of whether the suffering in OD will have an end or not, I think that D&C 76 is pretty clear that it won't (at least to my reading). With that in mind, the question still remains of whether god has a moral obligation to halt this suffering eventually, through whatever means. In my mind, he does. In the mind of others, not so much.

I think that this was probably one of the theological considerations behind the sentiment of JS when he was writing D&C 19. The question of whether it is in fact just to allow people to suffer forever is one of the problems with the traditional theology of Protestantism that doesn't sit will with a lot of adherents to Christianity. Even though believers in the Mormon flavor of Christianity claim that the idea of 3 kingdoms of glory removes that theological difficulty, a careful analysis just shows that it really deflects it to only apply to the devil and his angels and a few select historical figures instead of large chunks of the human race. Ostensibly, this makes the idea of suffering with no end much more palatable to the masses: they don't have to worry about their beloved non-Christian grandpa getting ripped apart by demons in the afterlife, only about some unknown followers of Lucifer being shut out in the cold. However, the reality of permanent suffering is still present in Mormon theology, which still begs the question of whether such suffering should be allowed by an all powerful God that presumably has the power to end it, if he chooses to do so.

[why me]

cdowis posted:

For example, a person who goes to the telestial kingdom goes there by their own choice. They can no more go to the celestial kingdom than an fish could build a rocket and fly to the moon. I realize that doctrine is incomprehensible to one who rejects the LDS concept of God and the Plan of Salvation. One who selects outer darkness has selected to remain in the presence of Satan for eternity preferring that to the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is your choice.

cdowis responds:

It is because God is merciful.

I have made my suggestion and one makes the decision to remain in spiritual ignorance and darkness, or whether one will be enlightened with the spirit. That is the choice each and everyone of us faces here on this earth.

The scriptures explain that we would be most miserable living with a Holy Father when we are filthy, than to abide with those who are in the same condition. True h** is to live with God with the consciousness of our guilt. It is in His mercy that we live where we chose to live. The mental anguish would be too great to bear.

We go to where we are most comfortable, where we "belong", and for some, that is with Satan.

To answer your question, their condition (you call it "torture") is preferable to the alternative. Going to a higher kingdom is greater torture or mental anguish (which is the definition of h***)

I know that I have made my choice to live a terrestial life, however, it is not always the case with other people. Some live such a life without a choice because no choice has been given to them. On the other hand, who knows just what kingdom we are heading to. Maybe my terrestial life is only in my mind and I will be in the celestial kingdom, likewise for someone who believes that they are living a celestial life. Maybe not. Very few I believe will be with satan. If that were the case, our god would not be a loving god. What makes mormonism stand out is the three kingdoms. Most churches have a heaven and a h*** and that is it.

People usually bring up hitler (as they did on this thread) as a man possessed by a demon or a psychopath. However, when we look into his life, his childhood with an abusive father and his sojourn in Vienna as a young man and what influences were around at that time, we see a young man who was lost in his own interpretations. Then, we have his service in WWI and the reperations that the germans were subject to and the misery that this caused and how this influenced him and who he blamed. Was he completely responsible for his behavior? I don't know. But god does.

We need to remember that a certain percentage of people are born sociopaths. Whose fault is that? Did they have a choice? My point: difficult to judge just what people are doing and why they are doing what they are doing. But it is in our nature to abhore deep injustice.

[LeSellers]

I think one of us certainly doesn't understand LDS doctrine ...

I agree. But I believe we differ on who that would be.

Since I am still "staunchly LDS for 60 + years", and you are not, I suggest your view is the one that's off base.

First, CRF for one GA or one verse of scripture that, taken in context, supports the idea that OD is anything other than a place to be punished without end (i.e. that people can actually be happy or want to be in OD). When you produce it, I will listen to the rest of your argument. If you need help, section 76 of the D & C talks a lot about OD. You should start there.

Indeed, I am familiar with section 76. I read it frequently.

I haven't said that Outer Darkness is not a place of punishment. I have said that those who go there prefer it to any place else they could be, and that, in their minds, it is the best place to be. It may be (and is) "punishment", but in comparison to living with God (irrespective of which kingdom of glory it would be), it is vastly preferable.

Second, if OD is a place of eternal suffering with no end possible, is it not the duty of a merciful and just God to somehow end this suffering, even at the apparent risk of his Godhood?

The assumption behind this question is absurd. Were He to abandon His godhood, all His creation would vanish. He loves us too much to do that. And all the more because those for whom He would ostensibly do it would dispise Him for it anyway. They don't want it. They have created themselves into beings who cannot want it.

If the only reason he hold back from ending suffering is because he will lose his Godhood, is this not a selfish reason on the part of God?

You keep avoiding the fact that it is the denizens of Outer Darkness who have chosen to go there, and who prefer it to being anywhere else. They do not want to be "saved".

Of course, for those who are more intelligent than God, it is all very easy: Just do away with reality, along with agency.

Please read rameumptom's response, three or four messages preceding this one. I'd also suggest you read Milton. We don't call him "Milton the Mormon" for nothing.

Lehi

Edited July 19, 2011 by LeSellers

[why me]

In a sense, we see people do this all the time. There's got to be a reason that the relapse numbers for people getting out of prison and going back in is so high, even though prison is clearly inferior to freedom in almost every way. It doesn't make sense to me, but it must make sense, in some way, to the people who keep ending up there.

There's obviously someting in our natures that cause us to sometimes knowingly choose the easier option, even when we know it's the inferior option. I'm guessing that part of our nature stays with some of us even after death.

Prison in America is no cakewalk. It is tough and hard and it is not about rehabilitation at all but it is about punishment. Tough not to fall back into crime. I can't judge these men and women because I am not capable of it. Much has to do with our social surroundings or environment. Many of the prisoners are poor with no education or prospects and they were born poor in bad social environments.

Edited July 19, 2011 by why me

[why me]

I haven't said that Outer Darkness is not a place of punishment. I have said that those who go there prefer it to any place else they could be, and that, in their minds, it is the best place to be. It may be (and is) "punishment", but in comparison to living with God (irrespective of which kingdom of glory it would be), it is vastly preferable.

Lehi

Maybe but maybe not. It would depend on their own knowledge. I don't think outer darkness is a highly populated place. But I do believe that the more knowledge one has of the gospel, the worse it is if one offends god. But for vast majority of human beings, such understandings would not hold. The point is: it is not our business to judge other human beings. God will sort it all out in the end. I have never been to a funeral when the dead person was decidedly going to h*** by the people attending the wake. Strange.

[cdowis]

First, CRF for one GA or one verse of scripture that, taken in context, supports the idea that OD is anything other than a place to be punished without end (i.e. that people can actually be happy or want to be in OD). When you produce it, I will listen to the rest of your argument. If you need help, section 76 of the D & C talks a lot about OD. You should start there.

Those in OD are miserable.

Second, if OD is a place of eternal suffering with no end possible, is it not the duty of a merciful and just God to somehow end this suffering, even at the apparent risk of his Godhood? If the only reason he hold back from ending suffering is because he will lose his Godhood, is this not a selfish reason on the part of God?

Read my post above.

The Lord is very specific that we do not know the details of OD, but let's look at one possibility -- you exist in a place with no light, living eternally with Satan with nothing to do. Eternal darkness, eternal boredom, eternal companionship with individuals full of evil beyond anything that you knew on earth.

They were warned, they were given ample opportunity to go elsewhere.

Edited July 19, 2011 by cdowis

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Two things…

People choose to live in darkness in this world, despite having others as an example who live in the light. Most because of life choices do not even see the light, they cannot discern it.

For the wicked to dwell with the righteous, would be (to them) and unspeakable h***.

[cdowis]

I think this thread has run its course. We are repeating ourselves, but I will let it go a little longer to see if anything happens.

[Ahab]

I think this thread has run its course. We are repeating ourselves, but I will let it go a little longer to see if anything happens.

I think some of us are repeating ourselves to try to help people who think a loving God would not leave someone in outer darkness or send them there in the first place.

You have noticed how some people seem to need repetition to be able to understand a point, haven't you?

Here's another shot from me, just in case it may help:

The people who will "suffer" in Outer Darkness will be people who have chosen to NOT repent from doing something which causes anyone who does that to suffer.

Now, most normal people would think that if a person is doing something which will cause them to suffer they would simply stop doing that thing which will cause them to suffer, but that won't be the case for those who will be sent into Outer Darkness. Rather than repent, or no longer doing the thing which will cause them to suffer, they would rather God condone that behavior and allow them to go somewhere else other than into Outer Darkness. In other words, instead of changing their ways to conform to God's laws, they would rather God change his laws and the punishments/consequences affixed to those laws if they have any negative impact.

For example, some people really like to hurt other people, in some way, and instead of God causing them to suffer for hurting other people they would rather God simply allow them to cause other people to suffer even while they are causing other people to suffer. That isn't the way God handles that kind of person who behaves that way, though. Instead of allowing others to suffer, God will cause the people who cause others to suffer to suffer, themselves, if they don't stop causing other people to suffer.

And that's all I have to say about that, for now.

[cdowis]

I was making the point that this "suffering" is not the burning of hellfire (eternal torture), but probably eternal darkness, misery and abject boredom, and living with very evil people like themselves.

Keith, are you still fuzzy on this. You may not agree, but have we clarified the doctrine for you?

Edited July 19, 2011 by cdowis

[Luigi]

In a sense, we see people do this all the time. There's got to be a reason that the relapse numbers for people getting out of prison and going back in is so high, even though prison is clearly inferior to freedom in almost every way. It doesn't make sense to me, but it must make sense, in some way, to the people who keep ending up there.

Crime is a relatively poor comparison. One, because the punishment is temporary and two because the enforcement mechanism is not perfect. People commit crimes with the intent of not getting caught. Religion claims the punishment is eternal and the enforcement 100% effective.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Luigi

[bluebell]

Crime is a relatively poor comparison. One, because the punishment is temporary and two because the enforcement mechanism is not perfect. People commit crimes with the intent of not getting caught. Religion claims the punishment is eternal and the enforcement 100% effective.

I think that we need to look deeper at why people commit crimes though. They don't just do stuff to see if they can get away with it, i don't think that's a common motivation. Most criminals seem to commit crimes because it's easier for them to get what they want that way than to work for it and they seem to feel that the ease of the way is worth the risk.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's a personality trait that follows us through eternity and that it might explain why some people would rather not worship God or live a Celestial lifestyle, even knowing what they would lose by not doing so.

[Ahab]

I think that we need to look deeper at why people commit crimes though. They don't just do stuff to see if they can get away with it, i don't think that's a common motivation. Most criminals seem to commit crimes because it's easier for them to get what they want that way than to work for it and they seem to feel that the ease of the way is worth the risk.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's a personality trait that follows us through eternity and that it might explain why some people would rather not worship God or live a Celestial lifestyle, even knowing what they would lose by not doing so.

One of the blessings given through the atonement of Jesus Christ is the ability to change how we are.

It's a blessing we have to work for, though, and we have to really want it.

I'm thankful for many changes in myself that Jesus has helped me to make.

[Luigi]

I think that we need to look deeper at why people commit crimes though. They don't just do stuff to see if they can get away with it, i don't think that's a common motivation. Most criminals seem to commit crimes because it's easier for them to get what they want that way than to work for it and they seem to feel that the ease of the way is worth the risk.

Exactly, there is a risk to reward ratio that they evaluate differently but the risk is not 100% certain (ie the chance of getting caught is not 100%) and the punishment is not infinite. No temporary reward is worth a punishment that is 100% certain and that never ends. To make such a valuation the person would have to be crazy or be confident the punishment is imaginary-in either case the person is not 'choosing' eternal punishment.

[bluebell]

Exactly, there is a risk to reward ratio that they evaluate differently but the risk is not 100% certain (ie the chance of getting caught is not 100%) and the punishment is not infinite. No temporary reward is worth a punishment that is 100% certain and that never ends. To make such a valuation the person would have to be crazy or be confident the punishment is imaginary-in either case the person is not 'choosing' eternal punishment.

But if you don't want to do what you need to do to get the 'reward' then what other option is there but to suffer the punishment?

I don't know anyone that wants to be overweight but i know a few extremely overweight people who eat horribly despite knowing 100% that it's making them gain weight.

Because they don't want to choose the behavior that leads to being thin, they choose the consequences of being overweight by default.

I'm not saying that this prove anything about outer darkness. I'm just saying that people choose bad consequences all the time in our world because they don't want to do what it takes NOT to get them. People seem to be inherently illogical when it comes to such things.

[jo1952]

I never said Sons of Perdition would be happy. Or at least did not mean it that way. I said they would prefer (even insist on) a kingdom with no glory. In examining D&C 76 regarding the sons of perdition, it does say they will suffer. But it is because they are not redeemed by Christ, for they have refused salvation. They are miserable, because they are miserable. And given they will no longer have any power over the children of God, they will only have themselves to commiserate in misery.

From D&C 76 we read:

Their suffering they bring upon themselves, because they refuse the atonement of Christ. When it notes "everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment" it is regarding Everlasting and Endless and Eternal as names of God (see D&C 19). This punishment is that the light of God is withheld from them, so all they can do is view their own filth.

Note that we are never told that they will remain there forever and ever. Instead it notes that "no man knows". IT may be that there IS an end for them. Perhaps they can pay for their own sins, or perhaps dwelling through enough eternities of self-inflicted torment, they eventually come to the point of repenting and being saved in Christ. We just do not know, as God does not reveal it to us. However, to assume the Protestant idea that they literally burn in eternal fire and brimstone is not LDS belief. They suffer their own self-imposed torment by rejecting the atonement and refusing to be saved.

I agree with you. I have always found the following a very interesting verse:

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

"Shall have their part" appears to be an arbitrary amount of "time", rather than the automatic conclusion that most have, in that they believe once you are sent to OD, that is where you will stay throughout the eternities.

Regards,

jo

[Luigi]

But if you don't want to do what you need to do to get the 'reward' then what other option is there but to suffer the punishment?

I don't know anyone that wants to be overweight but i know a few extremely overweight people who eat horribly despite knowing 100% that it's making them gain weight.

Because they don't want to choose the behavior that leads to being thin, they choose the consequences of being overweight by default.

I'm not saying that this prove anything about outer darkness. I'm just saying that people choose bad consequences all the time in our world because they don't want to do what it takes NOT to get them. People seem to be inherently illogical when it comes to such things.

Well being overweight doesn't seem illogical necessary. If the benefit of eating delicious food and not exercising outweighs (no pun intended) the benefit of being skinny then why not enjoy the food? However, even there the benefits of being skinny is at best temporary-nobody lives forever-and if food gives you more satisfaction than being skinny and the extra years of life you might gain will just be miserable without the satsifaction of food then why eat less?

I agree though that if people are, as the religious claim, choosing eternal punishments for temporary pleasure they are illogical. The question then would be if they 'choose' to be illogical or if they are illogical by nature-in which case it hardly seems fair to condemn them for eternity for it.