1921 Book Of Mormon Geography Hearings

Pahoran · July 21, 2011

Earlier in this "discussion" it was mentioned Signature Books would be publishing Elder Talmage's diary, by 2015. It's too bad none us will ever see it, because the proponents of a Guatemala/Mexico geography for theBook of Mormon believe the world will end in 2012 as noted by this article: An Apparent Maya Prophecy for Our Day.

Do they?

Here is the entirety of the relevant section. Please note the highlighted portion:

Those who have read “Prophecy among the Maya” in a previous FARMS publication1 are aware that native Mesoamericans at the time of the Spanish Conquest had prophets.
Documents written by descendants of the Maya during the century after the conquest have furnished us with sketchy details of how and what they prophesied.
Prophecy was a feature also of inscriptions on certain Maya monuments of the Classic era (approximately AD 300—800), although almost all of the inscriptions exclusively refer to impersonal events that are safely predictable, such as future completions of a given calendrical period.2 Recently, however, a prophecy of a more specific event has been identified on a Maya monument that was erected around A.D. 670. It points to a definite future event. At the site now called Tortuguero, about 35 miles west-northwest of Palenque in southernmost Mexico, Monument 6 bears an enigmatic inscription.3 An event is mentioned that was expected to take place on the Maya date 13.0.0.0.0 4 Ahaw 3 K'anki'in; following the generally accepted correlation of their calendar with ours, that would fall on Sunday, 23 December 2012. (Some modern interpreters have spoken of this date as “the end of the world,” although there is no explicit basis for that idea in Maya lore.)4 At that time the god Bolon Yokte K'u was prophesied to “descend,” presumably from a heavenly realm to earth (erosion damage of a key glyph makes the reading of the verb somewhat uncertain).
This monument allows us to be confident that the practice of prophesying future happenings was going on within a few centuries after the end of the Book of Mormon period, and since the custom of recording prophecies continued for at least a thousand years into Spanish colonial times, probably Monument 6 is not the earliest manifestation of the pattern that will be found. Such prophesying thus could have been going on from before Mormon's day.

The last paragraph explains the relevance: it is not the case that the writer of the article believes the world will end in 2012; much less that such is the position of "the proponents of a Guatemala/Mexico geography for the Book of Mormon," as if such a diverse group could seriously be expected to have a single opinion on such a subject. (If there is such a single opinion, it is most likely that they do not expect "the end of the world" next year.) Rather, it is simply that the Mayans had a "prophetic tradition" and that that tradition continued after the Nephites disappeared.

Regards,

Pahoran

SAVELLI · July 21, 2011

1. CFR
2. Which way does his river Sidon flow?

Dear Sir.

I don't know what is CFR means.

In this very Forum I already presented some Maps, including a general map, providing information about the Sidon = CIDon River = EL cid (God Cid could be a name...) accross USA and Canada. I explained, as an environmental professor, what I learned from Univ. of California, Berkeley, about LENTHIC and Lothic rivers, that applies to SIDON River, which is SID + on, which translated is on+cid, the "great CID" in nephitic (sabellic).

I explained that Sidon river is so very peculiar River, as its head allows (allowed) an Indian to travel from the discharge of River Saint Lawrence into Atlantic North (in Canada) to the town of Chicago (one head of Sidon River toward North) and then, through the Illinois River flow to the Gulf of Mexico ((other head ofSidon River toward West). For sure it depends of how full is Lake Michigan and good also is the flow at the very complex of small creeks that are part of the "head of Sidon River". But there are accounts that Chicago region was very important because it allowed Indians navigate, by boats, from Great Lakes, to Illinois River (thus toward Gulf of Mexico, Mississipi River, Missouri River, Rocky Mountain, etc.).

You should learn that sometimes a river is not "visible" (lothic), but lenthic condition. It appears that who wrote the Book of Mormon were very smart and learned people, as true scientist and not being too "salty and biased" to conclude that any "SEA" means SALTY WATER, as so many people searching and studying the Geography of Book of Mormon went in the search of SALTY SEA PLACES, as SLC, as candidate for the SEA PLACES mentioned in Book of Mormon. Biased scientists, because in Bible Jesus stayed around and over a SEA that was not a SALTY ONE... Also the SEA of BRASS, used to purificy PRIESTS in old Temples, had none SALTY WATER and SALTY LAKE was not yet discovered.

The main pathway of the most mentioned SIDON RIVER = CID ON River in Book of Mormon is from CHICAGO Metropolitan Area (Head of Sidon River, lothic condition) then through the Michigan Lake (Sidon River, lenthic condition, flowing at the deepest pathway, the political boundary between countyes and States and Nations), and then Huron Lade (at its deepest place it is the Sidon River lenthic flowing) and then it comes some stretch of a lothic river, then the Lake Saint Clair (at its deepest is the Sidon River lenthic, the border between USA and Canada) then it becomes visible as DETROIT River = Sidon River lothic condition passing through the most narrow neck at the fort wayne, then it becomes Lake Erie = West SEA (Sidon River lenthic at its deepest it is the border between the USA and Canada) and it reaches BUFFALO TOWN where it arises and becomes NIAGARA River = Sidon River lothic, etc. etc.

With best personal regards, sincerely yours, SAVELLI

Calm · July 21, 2011

Dear Sir.
I don't know what is CFR means.

CFR means "call for references".

Nenahnezad · July 21, 2011

Do they?
Here is the entirety of the relevant section. Please note the highlighted portion:
The last paragraph explains the relevance: it is not the case that the writer of the article believes the world will end in 2012; much less that such is the position of "the proponents of a Guatemala/Mexico geography for the Book of Mormon," as if such a diverse group could seriously be expected to have a single opinion on such a subject. (If there is such a single opinion, it is most likely that they do not expect "the end of the world" next year.) Rather, it is simply that the Mayans had a "prophetic tradition" and that that tradition continued after the Nephites disappeared.
Regards,
Pahoran

With all due respect, Pahoran, the Maxwell Institute appears to have more excuses for the Zelph account than for "Maya prophecies." Thus my tongue in cheek about 2015 never arriving.

One wonders why the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith are diminshed at BYU when used to define an area for Book of Mormon geography.

"With respect to points relative to Book of Mormon geography, Richards wrote that "Zelph was a white Lamanite, a man of God who was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus who was known from the [hill Cumorah is crossed out in the manuscript] eastern Sea, to the Rocky Mountains. He was killed in battle, by the arrow found among his ribs, during a [last crossed out] great struggle with the Lamanites" [and Nephites crossed out]."

(see http://maxwellinstit...=8&num=2&id=571) (It has a great search engine, by the way!)

Why is this? Because the Institute believes:

"The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map."

(see http://maxwellinstit...101&chapid=1139)

Svaelli, in Brazil, arrived at this same conclusion independent of mine, if you read his recent posts in this discussion, that Church History, or the Zelph statement, is ignored by the proponents of a Guatemala/Mexico geography.

It's interesting too the excuses for the directions of the east-west Isthmus of Tehuantepec for being north-south. But no excuses for the direction of the northerly flow of the River Sidon in that east-west Isthmus, and still argued by "Mesoamerica theorists," as being either the Río Usamacinta, or the Río Grijalva. You can't have it both ways: an actual east-west Isthmus is actually north-south. But an actual north-flowing river(s) in that Isthmus is ok -?

This before anyone complains about Savelli's proposed River Sidon.

Pahoran: "Rather, it is simply that the Mayans had a "prophetic tradition" and that that tradition continued after the Nephites disappeared."

Also, there is no archeological evidence of Nephites living among the Maya. That's a theory, no matter how many scholarly articles written about it. Ask Michael Coe of Yale University:

"How do they cope with this? I'll be the first to admit I don't know; I really don't. I don't really know how my friends that are Mormon archaeologists cope with this non-evidence, the fact that the evidence really hasn't shown up -- how they make the jump from the data to faith or from faith back to the data, because the data and the faith are two different worlds. There's simply no way to bring them together." (see http://www.pbs.org/m...rviews/coe.html)

Respectfully and with king regards, Nenahnezad

(I apologize if I'm not using the quote feature correctly, making my comments hard to read)

SAVELLI · July 21, 2011

With all due respect, Pahoran, the Maxwell Institute appears to have more excuses for the Zelph account than for "Maya prophecies." Thus my tongue in cheek about 2015 never arriving.
For very long I published articles about the END OF THE DAYS. They are mainly like JEWISH MADE AND WRITTEN STYLE (written from right to left) and for sure LDS people will make great cries to read it. But I heard none CRY as from SUD-Latino or Jewish people, who are much more humble peole. None end of the wold by these next few years if I am prophet and even being GUARANY = GUARA NI, humble RED SKIN INDIAN, not foolished silly people as LDS Salty ones, as by Mayan false prophets, even very long after they death.
One wonders why the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith are diminshed at BYU when used to define an area for Book of Mormon geography.
"With respect to points relative to Book of Mormon geography, Richards wrote that "Zelph was a white Lamanite, a man of God who was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus (some JEWS of N.Y. knew very well about the ONAN's DAGUS "much before" Joseph Smith get into scene... into history, as with Book of Mormon translation). See Savelli.
Why is this? Because the Institute believes:
Sometimes my wife and I stayed almost one week in N.Y. and we stayed in the house with a Jewish family of a scientist, famous of a NY Univ. Handled as faithful Jews, even knowing we were not Jews, but as if we were their lost children. For us see what of good was in the Jewiness of N.Y. including about the Black Jews that there were lost for over two thousand years and now were gathered again in the Jewish community... That they were also people as us, Good people, good scientist.

Some of such Jews, mainly those more "scientists" and unconventional "orthodox ones", also tryed with "american Indians ONON's DAGUS (I should not provide more details...) what they did with us, quite like hybrids of SOUTH AMERICAN INDIANS (my wife decend from the ferocios GOYAZ' indians of Goias...) and European people. To gather as House of Israel in some ZION. For LDS it was much more difficult because of the RACISM against INDIANS and BLACK PEOPLE. For us is quite easy for a Brazilian people marry an Indian or Black or Asiatic (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc.) and for a typical White LDS that yet is somewhat difficult. Because of cultural reasons. Because our blood is already full of mixtures...

It was PROHIBITED the Jews go ahead and make (implemented) what many of them wanted at the bottom of their heart, as from the town of New York and nearby region, as in the Isthmus of Niagara Falls, Cumorah region, Buffalo, etc. That was quite like before Joseph Smith's days. For sure they faced "opposition". Nothing is said about. Only the "silence".

THINK ABOUT.

Newark Holy Stones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Holy_Stones - Em cache SimilaresThey can be viewed at the Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum in Coshocton, Ohio. The site where the objects were found is known as The Newark Earthworks, one of the biggest collections from an ancient American Indian culture known as ... This rock was carved with post-Exilic square Hebrew letters on all sides translated ...
List of museums in Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_museums_in_Ohio - Em cache SimilaresWikimedia Commons has media related to: Museums in Ohio ...
Exibir mais resultados de wikipedia.org
The UnMuseum: The Decalogue Stones - Museum of Unnatural Mystery
www.unmuseum.org/decalog.htm - Em cache SimilaresAround the man and then along the sides and back of the object were carved what ... had been excavating an ancient Indian mound near Newark, Ohio, USA. ... It is inscribed in Hebrew using the Old Hebrew alphabet and some Greek letters. ...
Foothills Farm
www.foothillsfarm.com/visitors/attractions.html - Em cache Similares19 Jan 2009 – Flint Ridge museum is located on a ridge southeast of Newark Oh in which the ... Ohio Indian Arts Museum & Great Circle Earthworks .... A 136 foot diorama of the National Road plus many objects illustrate this theme. ...
The Newark Holy Stones - Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum
www.jhmuseum.org/holy_stone_about.htm - Em cache SimilaresThe Newark Holy Stones is comprised of four objects: the Keystone, the Decalogue ... The context suggested a link with the Hopewell Indian culture, which thrived ... Charles Whittlesey, one of Ohio's noteworthy early archaeologists, ... with Hebraic letters that convey an abbreviated form of the Ten Commandments. ...

OBJECT, named KEYSTONE, found in a cemetery burial place, for very ancient INDIANS, written in HEBREW.

Near the place named KIRTLAND, Ohio. Thus Indians in fact were able to write in Hebrew, as it is mentioned in Book of Mormon, but were not doing so, because the "characters" for Hebrew requiring more space (in the plates, for example) and taking more time and effort to write.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Keystone_Holy_Stones.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Decalogue_Holy_Stones.gif

This stone was carved with a human figure of a priest with the mantle over the shoulder, and was inside a sarcophag, with a religious message;

JEWS (of NY) translated the Sabelli's-Nephitic old Indian characters, as if they were some exotic type of Hebrew (mixed with Phoenician - Joel 3:6)

cdowis · July 21, 2011

I apologize for a comment I made here. It was unwarranted and inappropriate and it certainly was not funny.

Sorry.

mfbukowski · July 21, 2011

JEWS (of NY) translated the Sabelli's-Nephitic old Indian characters, as if they were some exotic type of Hebrew (mixed with Phoenician - Joel 3:6)

I just have two questions for you. They are simple and direct.

1- Please show (or repeat) your evidence for the similarity between what "Nephite" characters and "Sabelli script" or alphabet.

I understand that "Sabelli script" is supposed to be "unknown".

2- How did Lehi and the Nephites learn to write in "Sabelli script" and why did they use that instead of Hebrew or "Reformed Egyptian" in your theory?

Your posts are a bit difficult to understand because of the translation problem, and I would like you to just give a simple, short explanation of these two points if you can.

Anijen · July 22, 2011

THINK ABOUT.

Newark Holy Stones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Holy_Stones - Em cache SimilaresThey can be viewed at the Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum in Coshocton, Ohio. The site where the objects were found is known as The Newark Earthworks, one of the biggest collections from an ancient American Indian culture known as ... This rock was carved with post-Exilic square Hebrew letters on all sides translated ...

List of museums in Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_museums_in_Ohio - Em cache SimilaresWikimedia Commons has media related to: Museums in Ohio ...
Exibir mais resultados de wikipedia.org

The UnMuseum: The Decalogue Stones - Museum of Unnatural Mystery
www.unmuseum.org/decalog.htm - Em cache SimilaresAround the man and then along the sides and back of the object were carved what ... had been excavating an ancient Indian mound near Newark, Ohio, USA. ... It is inscribed in Hebrew using the Old Hebrew alphabet and some Greek letters. ...

Foothills Farm
www.foothillsfarm.com/visitors/attractions.html - Em cache Similares19 Jan 2009 – Flint Ridge museum is located on a ridge southeast of Newark Oh in which the ... Ohio Indian Arts Museum & Great Circle Earthworks .... A 136 foot diorama of the National Road plus many objects illustrate this theme. ...

The Newark Holy Stones - Johnson-Humrickhouse Museum
www.jhmuseum.org/holy_stone_about.htm - Em cache SimilaresThe Newark Holy Stones is comprised of four objects: the Keystone, the Decalogue ... The context suggested a link with the Hopewell Indian culture, which thrived ... Charles Whittlesey, one of Ohio's noteworthy early archaeologists, ... with Hebraic letters that convey an abbreviated form of the Ten Commandments. ...
OBJECT, named KEYSTONE, found in a cemetery burial place, for very ancient INDIANS, written in HEBREW.
Near the place named KIRTLAND, Ohio. Thus Indians in fact were able to write in Hebrew, as it is mentioned in Book of Mormon, but were not doing so, because the "characters" for Hebrew requiring more space (in the plates, for example) and taking more time and effort to write.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Keystone_Holy_Stones.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Decalogue_Holy_Stones.gif
This stone was carved with a human figure of a priest with the mantle over the shoulder, and was inside a sarcophag, with a religious message;
JEWS (of NY) translated the Sabelli's-Nephitic old Indian characters, as if they were some exotic type of Hebrew (mixed with Phoenician - Joel 3:6)

Savelli,

First off welcome to the MD&D board. I hold to the opinion that these stones are fakes and were produced for one of the following reasons;

Money. Money seems to be the main reason people make forgeries.

Honor. To get famous or prestige, the love of man.

POV. artifact is made to prove a theological or scientific point of view.

There are other reasons of course but those are the main ones. I find it difficult to support or subscribe to theories that use such frauds to bolster ones ideas.

SAVELLI · August 9, 2011

Honestly, from what little I was able to read (some of the forums allowed less 'clutter' in their posts, it seems more like free association/stream of thought ideas or possibly rampant 'parallelism' than a scientific thought process, but perhaps I missed something.

It is quite well known in the history of USA that so many good persons lived from digging Indian cemeteries that were not from recent days in the early 1800's but were from so many centuries earlier. There are plenty literatures about the religious meaning of them: more than one thousand such important Indian Mounds were located and classified. Some survived virgin to our days. Some quite like are noticeable HILLS that attracted attention of persons like Joseph Smith. They were part of burial religious practice.

Some Indian Mounds were rich in "objects", of all types, including ceramics and carved/sculptured stones, precious stones and metals, as copper, silver and even gold. Even it is reported that some objects had inscriptions on them, that Europeans were not able to read. Such objects were sold to rich people (quite like Jews) of New York and other important towns of USA and of Europe.

Thus they yet are available for those who collect them as for private investment and even for display in some private (Jewish) and public museums. Some are used quite like for esoteric reasons: the same reason and purpose provided for objects with inscriptions unearthed in Italy in 1840 in SABELLIC, exactly identical to the language and characters of NEPHITIC (Anthon’s caractors) of before Christ. Such Italian objects and even walls, with Nephitic inscriptions,have been found in "tombs" dated before Christ in Italy. Thus of similar Joseph Smith’s time and days tombs being digging (even by Joseph) on Indian Mounds in USA with the purpose of trying to find such similar valuable objects:both in Italy and USA: gold, silver, etc. It is reported such valuable objects were found in USA,excavated from the Indian Mounds. They can be viewed in some collections in New York and elsewhere, both originated from Italy and from USA, and buried from the same time in Italy and in USA…. Both with Nephitic like characters…

Such wealth was retrieved from the ground, from the Indians Mounds, by digging, by people like Joseph Smith. They did it in the attempt of becoming rich by finding very important Indian burial remains,as objects made in silver and gold. And other exotic and valuable Indian objects, very valuable by Jews of New York and other important and rich communities, as from Europe... Maybe to be put side by side to those they were collecting from burial sites, from very old Sabelli's tombs in Italy, just being discovered and digged out of ground since 1840, showing over 2,500 years of hidden past and of Nephitic's characters and words in Italy. Exactly the same and equal to those that were being found in USA.Could it be Fraud?

Thereis a huge and very well detailed literature, available in web, about one "fantastic cave" plenty of Nephitic like material. It was found inthe State of Illinois, in which it was found written material exactly being the BROTHER MATERIAL to that found in ITALIAN TOMBS of 2,500 years ago, in ITALY:written with the same characters. Both with same type of text literature as found in ITALY and in the huge cave Burrows in ILLINOIS (here they say it is written in Etruscan is other name for Sabellian or Nephitic). It is a special case in which Nephitic inscriptions (text) was not found in Indian MOUND. Other case was in LOS LUNAS-NM. Both were not found in an INDIAN MOUND, but in one case, FANTASTIC, it was found in an INDIAN CAVE.

For sure nobody could believe on such finding as the huge CAVE. The same took placein ITALY,also at first, when it was found the HIDDEN TOMBS in 1840 (the similar to the INDIAN MOUNDS): buried tombs for under 2,500 years. Who would be making FORGERIES and FALSIFIED material against the LDS in 1840? Quite like to make confusion with the Book of Mormon being released, in that very year oif 1840, in the other side of Atlantic?

.Nobody believes in things like Book of Mormon and its Gold Plates, an "Indian treasury" that remained hidden so long: quite like in a "small cave" (quite like Illinois’ Burrows Cave…): Joseph Smith found a tiny cave, a short small version of Burrow's cave...

It's almost impossible to believe that those who believe in their religion came from hidden ground information believe in none more possibility that something else could come out of ground. Mainly in USA and that more information may come from CAVES or MOUNDS or from Indians caves. Jews believedFIRST of anybody on Indians. They believed first that the ONANDONGAS were their true brothers, from House of Judah’s descendance and living around the region of New York town. And their FAITH of being true brothers was not based on MORMON religion and teaching or Book of Mormon... Joseph Smith first talked about the ONANDONGAS when he explained about the ZELPH, the last warrior WhiteLamanite…LDS don't notice.

· Freedomand Reason: Joseph Smith was a Treasure Hunt

wwsword.blogspot.com/.../joseph-smith-was-treasure-hunter...

16Dec 2007 – Joseph Smith wasa Treasure Hunter. After knocking around Indian mounds, Joseph Smith discovered thegreatest treasure

· Joseph Smith Biography

www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml -

Whowas Joseph Smith?Find out in this online biography. ... but also treasure whichhad been buried by Indians many years before. ... While hunting forthe treasure, Joseph and his father lived at a farm in Pennsylvania, where the ...

TheBurrows Cave Enigma

www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_sociopol_underground...

11Feb 2005 – ... a quick look at a controversial site in Illinois called Burrows Cave. ... artifacts of the American Indians and there are many of their sites in my .... Mixed in amongst the Etruscan script there is also the added ...

TheSaga of Burrows Cave http://chapmanresear...4idE1riPO3bHEkA

of copper nuggets from the copper minesof Michigan to Illinois, where they were

prepared for ...... Then we find that the artifacts appearEgyptian, Etruscan,

Greek, ..... The owner of that area c.1840 had found a goldbreastplate in a

surface ..... a silver menorah was removed from the cave by Burrows. ...

1. Sagaof Burrows Cave: Egyptian Artifacts in America? (WOVOCA.com ...

4 Apr 2001 ... Saga of Burrows Cave:Egyptian Artifacts in America?... A bizarre collection [

of artifacts] was found in a remote cave system in the American Stateof

Illinois.... with accompanying hieroglyphs, embossed on a gold plate. ...or

dimly remembered copies of ancient Greek and Mesopotamiansources. ...

http://www.nativeamericanprophecy.com/controversies-burrows-cave.htm

1. • View topic - egyptians and aztecs

Menes is the Greek translation of Aha. ...The history of the Jaredites was

recorded on twenty-four gold plates ... occasionally carrycharacters that we

recognize in Etruscan, ... found in the Burrows Cavetablets, the Kinderhook

Plates, .... of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. ...

http://www.ancientlo...m/viewtopic.php

SEE à http://www.ancientlo....php?f=54&t=556and in see the end:

Chapter 10: The Kinderhook Plates

More on the Kinderhook Plates while we're at it... (sorry, the imageswould not come through but they are found in the article itself which is here: http://www.cumorah.c...id=66&cat_id=10

Chapter 10: The Kinderhook Plates

Introduction

The Kinderhookplates were found on April 23, 1843, in Pike County, Illinois, on the breast of alarge skeleton. Parley P. Pratt recorded:

Six plates having the appearance of brasshave lately been dug out of a mound by a gentleman in Pike Co. Illinois. Theyare small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain thegenealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah. Hisbones were found in the same vase (made of Cement). Part of the bones were 15 ft. underground. ... Alarge number of citizens have seen them and compared the characters with thoseon the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this city. (Parley P. Pratt letter toVan Cott, LDS Church Archives)

Criticisms of the Kinderhook Plates

After subsequent material analysis, the plates werewidely declared to be frauds by leading church scholars, including Dr. StanleyB. Kimball of BYU (Stanley B. Kimball, "Kinderhook Plates Brought toJoseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax," Ensign, Aug. 1981). Argumentsthat the plates were forgeries were based primarily on the material analysis ofthe plates. Kimball's primary reasons for rejecting the plates weremetallurgical. Specifically:

Edited August 9, 2011 by SAVELLI

SAVELLI · August 10, 2011

It is quite well known in the history of USA that so many good persons lived from digging Indian cemeteries that were not from recent days in the early 1800's but were from so many centuries earlier.

NOTICE: images were suppressed because it is not allowed to use image extension on this board:

"You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board.”

Please just CLICK ON the URL provided in the text to see the image from the web provider of such images.

WHAT TO SAY ABOUT THE NOT NEPHITES or LAMANITES or JAREDITES living in AMERICA CONTINENT, NOT MENTIONED IN BOOK OF MORMON?

IT APPEARS THE BOOK OF MORMON, for AMERICA, IS THE ACCOUNT=HISTORY OF PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN NORTH AMERICA CONTINENT. EXCLUDING MEXICAN KINGDOMS and thus Central and South America.

In fact I suggested (speculated) that people like from Mexican kingdoms were like "Wild African Bees" inhabiting the South Coast and they spread from Mexico kingdoms, through the coast, to the Gulf of Mexico, and then to Florida and then up North to New York region. There the Lamanites had been kept backwards by the Nephites, to not invade the lands around Cumorah, thus toward the EAST LAKE which is the name for ONTARIUM LAKE, from ONT + A + R + IUM that in Nephitic = Sabellian is read from right to left, thus it is as if IUM=IO="the place" + R (a verb, an "order to do something, to MINE silver ore, in the isthmus of Niagara, the narrow neck of land between EAST and WEST SEA, Lake Ontario and Lake Erie) + A (gender female, thus not "finished silver, but silver ore") + ONT("silver")...

http://mormonthink.com/zelph.htm Zelph, ancient Mormon Warrior mormonthink.com/zelph.htm The white Lamanite warrior discovered by Joseph Smith on the Zion's Camp March. ... stating that Zelf he was a white Lamanite who fought with the people of ... from the hill Cumorah on East sea = LAKE ONTARIUM to the Rocky Mountains," thus implying...

http://www.ancientam...RIC%20MOUND.htm

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/4qimqkix/JOSEPH%20SMITH%20AND%20THE%20PREHISTORIC%20MOUND.htm

JOSEPH SMITH AND THE PREHISTORIC MOUND-BUILDERS OF EASTERN & NORTH

www.ancientamerica.org/.../... “In this presentation of the prehistory of Eastern North America there are no vanished .... who was known from the eastern sea (LAKE ONTaRium = ONTARIO) to the Rocky Mountains. ..... The last man buried was Zelf or Telf he was a white lamanite who fought with ...

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg

Click on above URL to see VERY ENLARGED the map of North America. It provided great emphasis on USA and on historical places of the CHURCH as it was moving along the NEPHITIC LANDS that are the USA LANDS (and some of CANADA, with the JAREDITES being on NORTH LANDS, as in relation to DETROIT = MANTI and Isthmus of Niagara).

You can see that very great emphasis is given (put on) CUMORAH being at the side of LAKE ONTARIO=ONTARIUM, which is the EASTERN SEA. Why such name EASTERN? Because it is placed EASTERN of Isthmus of Niagara, of the land with the shortest length of neck of land between the two sea (1 and a half day walking distance), the EAST SEA =ONTARIUM and the WEST SEA = ERIE SEA. They are as "SEA" (fresh water SEA) as the SEA of GALILEA in Israel. Thus SEA was well known as being FRESH WATER reservoirs, as the BRASS tanks at the entrance of Temple, with the 12 bulls... (oxen). Thus one SEA was "toward" EAST(ern) and other "toward" WEST(ern)...

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b4g.jpg

When the "Mexicans Wild BEES' like invaders" had contact with the relatively peaceful White Lamanites, the result was the brutal breeding of a mixed "red skin darkened civilization of Lamanites (quite like Indians GUARAny= humble Red Skin Indians =natives of Paraguay"), quite like Bees half African and half European Bees, that became furious in their attacks against the Nephites, to exterminate them or to "assimilate" them. Thus the hybrid became even much bloodiest and violent than the original "Mexican like intruders coming through the coast" and boasting Laminates breeding. Quite like some invasions of barbarians (Huns? Mongols?) against Europe and China... It caused so greatest destruction and disintegration of civilization advancements.

It is possible to accuse some discoveries of being HOAX. But what about the case in which I MYSELF am one person that was linked to some important discovery? For some 13 years or more I learned/heard about a great and important discovery that was made in some remote part of our huge farms in the Amazon Forest of Brazil, nearby the largest Brazilian Hydroelectric and of the World, named TUCURUI POWER PLANT, that was built over one mine farm that was partly flooded... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucuru%C3%AD_Dam Now also a big town (60,000 persons) and a big industry of metallic silicon is on such former farm.

I have had farms there since 1973, as one gift of marriage (40 years ago...). And in 1981 I had a "very special dream" about the existence, in time, of a very advanced civilization in my farm. They were more advanced than us... I organized an expedition to find remains of such civilization. In vain. Only very dense forest... Thus I wrote a patent of invention, deposited in March 1982, at Brazilian Patent office of Inventions, related to such people in my farm and their so marvelous science and technology... Much was published in science and technology sites of USA. They were very normal people and I had none information about the LDS people or Book of Mormon being something real. They were scientists providing teaching and practical experiments. I had other dreams. Thus other patents were made and deposited...

Some 13 years ago I heard it was discovered evidences of constructions from other civilization, not from whites or Indians, in our farms, in remote place, covered by dense forest. And they provided me some pictures of the 3 dams, made from basalt cut big rocks. The place was used for fishing and swimming. Some 3 years ago we decided to build a long expensive road to that place and to start converting the forest into grass pasture to "see" what was there. Thus in 1979 I could, finally, travel to thereby a pickup (in a dry season) to inspect the place. In fact it was not the result of our modern civilization or from standard Brazilian Indians. Inspecting the place, it was evident that it was a place for "gathering" and reasoning about, it was concluded that the very center of some” ceremony" would be some very spot.

And making the excavation, it was found that "such place" was very correct by less than one cm of location error... And a big stone was unearthed, in very stiff hard basalt, all cut as if by machinery used to finish metal to geometric surfaces, in very geometric complex and variable shapes. Maybe it was some type of "altar" or “ceremonial table". And it had a very big clear carved (some 1 cm deep) inscription on its vertical plane side, in CHINESE INSCRIPTION, that I could read without difficulty. As I had been in ASIA (as in Hong Kong) providing Technical Consulting some years before. That, on rock, was a very simple IDEOGRAM. I already had published in web how to understand the Chinese ideograms knowing their historic evolution and thus how we could understand, step by step, the result of "adding something" to an original ideogram... Thus it was not difficult to search for some ancient Chinese sites, just to be sure it was (what was evident while doing the excavation, in farm) that the FIRST and main one CHINESE IDEOGRAM for MAN, MANKIND, for the ideogram when China became united and Chinese ideograms started.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/f733353d0bc087db29e4946a85082348c59e1f2b0e909d3abfa907bf2a5bfd706g.jpg

Large image of the next small sized image of the excavation when yet going on (there are pictures of the original site and of the rock dams, that collapsed by floods, but the dam shoulders remained, made in big and cut stones blocks: not made by usual Indians… ).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/6b12f6d53f089adf85c9f707020c64e04c7401e44f094d4a80a0b61267efe01e6g.jpg

CLICK ON ABOVE URL and you can see a well and deeply carved ideogram (like Chinese) in the right down corner and you can see quite well fainted figure (ideogram) in the left down corner of the big basaltic stone "monument, altar=?", that was cut in complex geometric shapes, as if from the geometry of one sail ship external surface (in 1/4th of it). A thick decay crust from basalt sound rock, that was cut to make the "monument", is like a cement mortar covering the sound rock, thus covering any drawings and scratches. There are other pictures taken from other viewpoints and from other sun-light/shadowing,

http://img7.mediafire.com/6b12f6d53f089adf85c9f707020c64e04c7401e44f094d4a80a0b61267efe01e4g.jpg

See the picture of the BIG STONE washed and cleaned. Notice that it is like a boat cut in 4 parts at longitudinal axis of symmetry and half of the boat

http://img9.mediafire.com/897ef59febc5da82f73d521d56b29d40ded881210c39e5d13183a69cd45a91994g.jpg

There are also other funny or strange looking stones around. Maybe the long straight stone wall my wife saw in the forest...

http://img7.mediafire.com/617fd35ad6d359a4173ba50838c1e1de4a90a2e0196099f31c5e3efaeb2d10aa4g.jpg

What could explain why the "big stone, ceremonial table, or altar" could have something like the shape of a "ship" (sail ship?), carved in pure basalt rock and that was built at some 20 km(?) far from a river that could allow any sail ship to navigate in it? And being in like the top of a small mountain range... Not far (less than 50 km in straight line) from nowadays so huge Brazilian largest TUCURUI hydroelectric Plant. Many pictures were published in web about the place and about the digging taking place and about the unveiling of the CHINESE IDEOGRAMS... All are in Internet for 2 years, but were considered "HOAX"... It goes against the STANDARD SCIENCE.

Looking at the Ideogram we can speculate that the way it was evolved the script, writing, of language in Guatemala, for example, is just an EVOLUTION of such very primitive Chinese like ideograms, but their evolution didn't follow the same pathway as in China, but followed other pathway based on same root. It is possible that the relatively not so violent and not so bloodiest civilizations in Mexico to Central America, when they were "invaded" (as if by "Huns/Mongols"): the now "virulent and ferocious Lamanites", with the collapse of the Nephites Kingdom (holding back such Lamanites to have domain over North Lands/Sea and Heads of Sidon RiverS...). Such Meso-American's civilizations (Middle America's) turned into a very virulent stage-turmoil. But some "progress" in their language and hieroglyphs ("ideograms like", my conclusions) and religion may took place with Nephitic influence and sacrifices. With best personal regards, sincerely yours, Savelli

Edited August 11, 2011 by SAVELLI

SAVELLI · August 11, 2011

NOTICE: images were suppressed because it is not allowed to use image extension on this board:

"You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board.”

Please just CLICK ON the URL provided in the text to see the image from the web provider of such images.

What are the BASICS and FUNDAMENTAL "principal" CORNERSTONES of the GEOGRAPHY linked to the BOOK OF MORMON?

As related to the NEPHITIC-LAMANITIC-MULEKITES and JAREDITES people living in "AMERICA", in "SOMEWHERE" geographic places?

In south America? In Central America? In Mexico? In the USA? In somewhere Canada? Partly in USA and partly in Canada? In the whole North America continent? In all over the America continent? In just some Island of Sea (as Cuba?)?

What is the relationship of Geography for Nephitic-Lamanitic-Mulekitic events in relation to the Jareditic events?

How can we know that one geographic event, described and located by some toponimic identification (as one name and feature) is the same of some similar in the other culture?

I guess there is just one case in which there is one "explicit" link of one Jaredict place for both cultures, in Book of Mormon, when Jaredite's records were being translated into Nephitic's.

It is like you have the old map of Roman Empire, made as good as possible. Then you get another and modern map of Italy . And you try to identify the place of a plane crash event on both maps and how to go to such place.

Probably some things are in common in both maps, as the rivers e peak of mountains, for example... Some towns and roads disappeared...

As in the case of Book of Mormon, some towns probably were burned, as they were made basically of WOOD, the ideal material for very cold places, as NORTH LANDS and thus the "devastation = DESOLATION, DE - FORESTATION"... And the bad environmental impacts as lack of animal wild life...

Think about the Japanese and "guess" if their "dream" (like those described in Book of Mormon) is to live in a house made of STONES or of BLOCKS OF CEMENT... No!

Their "dream" is to have houses made of WOOD, even if it comes from far away, in huge Hagoth's cargo sailships. Because of CONFORT, as thermal one. Also it is safer if you are subject to earthquakes: I lived in Berkeley (S.F.Bay Area).

For hot climates, it makes no difference in living in a brick house or without wood thermal insulation on floor and walls.

Where did start the KINGDOM OF NEPHITES?

WHERE IS THE VERY BASIC MAP of the GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF MORMON?

JOSEPH SMITH declared it very plainly... In very plain words, during the event of ZELPH's skeleton discovery next to River Illinois: point "10" in the enclosed MAPS.

As I am (was) a professional topograph and Technical Director of a good and quite large Precision Map Making Company of Brazil, I used such CLUE from the GREATEST and New prophet, instead of using so many bad clues from people who are just "curious"... Whithout powers of God's revelation, just providing BALAAM's revelation as to fornicate Jews with Arab's girls. And saying that Nephit's kingdom was in Mexico or Guatemala or "both" or there but with Cumorah's last battle being as isolated point in USA, with enemy Armies marching side-by-side thousand of miles just to face the final battle so far away...

For sure I used so many other and abundant "technical, topographic" CLUES in the Book of Mormon itself and from other first hand LDS pioners/leaders, not yet contaminated by such BALAAM's "wises of Zion". They were of "good heart", like Aaron, Moses' brother, trying to make it easier to worship God and to provide an easier and more reliable religion, full of idols to touch and make tourism trips. Quite like going to Israel and see the "Holly Land" and their touristic religious events.

In fact it is much easier to worship a Gold calf or Cow, that everybody can "see" (the pyramids in Mexico and Guatemala, and distort their true bloodiest history as being Nephist's), than to believe in some History that is kept very HIDDEN, as it was to believe in GOLD PLATES that nobody could SEE or TOUCH or examine. It was as if MOSES' God before Israel: they wanted IDOLS, tourism. They had to make choices. Believe in Moses' God, in Moses' word and disclosure (revelations) and keep marching in the desert during 40 years. Or, ... for sure, they had the option to return to the Egypt and return to the life of slavery. And being slaves of Gold Idols of Egypt, also liars.

Or could return to believe in idols and pyramids of Mexico/Guatemala as being what is the true Geography from Book of Mormon events and IDOLS being added... Free!

Thus, let see the very FUNDAMENTAL CORE of the GEOGRAPHY of the BOOK OF MORMON

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23fdc8033ffcb901516eb7eeb84e8e4681db09f84b912de47d6b4ef692369f06g.jpg

It is prohibited, by some reason, to reproduce directly such figures in this FORUM.

This figure is part of a broader figure that already was posted and reproduced (shown) in this FORUM (click and see):

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg

You should have in mind that "1" is the region of New York, the LAND of LIBERTY.

There is even a STATUE on LIBERTY to remember arriving immigrants by ships that they were arriving at the LIBERTY LAND, as foretold in BOOK OF MORMON.

Thus the prophecy was being fulfilled before them and the statue was a clear evidence on that.

According the Jews I had contact, they were sure (at least one stream among them) that the ONAN indians (the ONANdongas) were the true genetic descendants from JUDAH, from ONAN, living in New York (in AMERICA) region, before America was discovered, thus before Joseph Smith coming with Book of Mormon... And some of the Jews tried to convert the ONAN Indians to Judaism and to gather them to live in a land that is the ISTHMUS of NIAGARA, that links USA and CANADA. That religious movement was not welcome by USA and either not by England, because of political implications, and it was forced to abort.

It is very interesting that Joseph Smith mentioned about the Indians ONANdongas in the speech and explanations Joseph Smith provided about ZELPH the White Lamanite Warrior whoose skeleton was found in the margin of Illinois River. My suggestion is that ZELF was a ONANdonga warrior, probably from N.York. And that he was used to travel from NY to Rocky Mountains, and thus he was very well KNOWN from one to the other limit of NEPHITIC EMPIRE.

It was what Joseph Smith was saying. Thus ZELPH was a descendent of JUDAH, a Jew. Thus a Mulekite...

Notice that Joseph Smith clearly placed CUMORAH HILL as next to the EAST "SEA", the ONTARIO LAKE=SEA, never as SALT SEA as ALL TOPOGRAPHS from SALTY LAKE PEOPLE "reasoned" (it is never stated or implicit in Book of Mormon that such SEA was of SALTY WATERS).

In fact I visited twice SLC and it is quite like as salty as the deadly ultra salty DEAD SEA. Strange is that DEAD SEA is not called SALTIEST "LAKE", because it is quite "small" to be named "SEA". But the explanation we can get in SEA GALILEA, that in fact is also only a "POND, LAKE". But it is just a matter of language, because for Jews and their small kingdom that "POND, LAKE" was big enough to be named "SEA", be it salty or FRESH WATER. Salt Lake and Dead Sea are quite similar very saline and very "deadly" waters for normal ocean life live there.

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

Celso Savelli Gomes

SAVELLI · August 11, 2011

We are to make comments on the FORUM tittled "TAKEN at FACE VALUE... Is the Book of Mormon True,
or must it be nuanced to make it so?
HERE WE ARE TO MAKE SOME CRITICISM/EVALUATION to such type of EVALUATION, considering what is being presented in the FORUM:
1921 BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAFPHY HEARINGS
A thread started by Craig Paxton and started with a question that is very much related to the Book of Mormon GEOGRAPHY and that was raised by FARMS creator:
Former head of the organizatin that evenutally became F.A.R.M.S., Thomas Stuart Ferguson, was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.
In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in response to papers written by Mormon apologists John Sorenson and Garth Norman. It was entitled, "Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers." In this response, Mr. Ferguson wrote: 'With all of these great efforts, it cannot be established factually that anyone, from Joseph Smith to the present day, has put his finger on a single point of terrain that was a Book-of-Mormon geographical place. And the hemisphere has been pretty well checked out by competent people. Thousands of sites have been excavated."
Ferguson pointed out in his paper that the text of the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that certain items should be found in archaeological excavations and that these items are not present in the sites proposed. He noted, for instance, that "Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon..." He concluded by saying: "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong."
To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:
Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test
Plant-Life Test
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants in regions proposed as Nephite-Lamanite country:
BARLEY ---> MAYBE WE HAVE SOME "CULTURAL PROBLEMS" WITH THE TRANSLATION FROM SABELLIAN (well before Latin) = NEPHITIC to ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
Mosiah 7:22 One half of our corn, and our barley
................................Acts in the Chapter 10: An angel ministers to CORNelius. 10:1 There was a certain man in Cesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band.
Look at the name of this SABELLIAN person, a son from ITA - LIAH, ITA = "descendent of" LIAH= JACOB's wife = ISRAEL's wife. Thus such centurion was an ISRAELITE or ISRAELITA in LATIN languages or in SABELLIAN language (which is prior to LATIN) or in NEPHITIC language which is the same as SABELLIAN language. ITA LIAH's centurionb is ITA ISRAEL's = ISRAELITA = ISRAELite.
Look at the personal name of such centurion. It is not his FIRST NAME, but it is his FAMILY NAME (and I am known by my surname SAVELLI, as NEPHI is the FAMILY name thus you have NEPHI 1st, NEPHI 2nd, NEPHI 3rd and the "I" is to mean you are of "male gender" or would be NEPHA if of "female gender"...)
Look again. CORNellius is CORN + eli + us, and it is NEPHITIC surname = SABELLIC surname. Thus you read it as Hebrew: from right to left, even if you are using a blend of Greek and Phoenician characters, but with Hebrew grammar. You read: ELI + CORN. Thus ELI = MY GOD (as Jesus made such exclamation at the death in crossing)
......... CORN is not necessarily WHEAT but can be the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE grains and flour as basic main INDIAN FOOD. That was to be discovered in AMERICA in Colombus' days. "CORN" was main "FOOD" in, Christ's days, in SABELLIAN = NEPHITIC's language mainly from grains like wheat. Corn could/can be all FOOD as from starchy looking appearance bread: probably from generic grains and mixtures. In America we could include cassava (manioc) and similar starchy tubercles for generating "bread". It is possible the translation for WHEAT in fact was the translation for the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE... just a cultural problem, as with SHAZER x correct CHASER.
FIGS
GRAPES
WHEAT x CORN (SEE ABOVE DISCUSSION)
Mosiah 9:9 With seed of corn, and of wheat (SEE THE DISTINCTION "of CORN" and "of WHEAT"). What "CORN"?
3 Ne. 18:18 To have you: that he may sift you as wheat
Evidence to support the existence of these forms of plant life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:
NOTICE: BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY is not linked to MEXICO to GUATEMALA, but to N.Y. to DETROIT to CHICAGO... AFTER THE END OF NEPHITIC EMPIRE, the LAMANITES LIKE HUNS and MONGOLS INVADED MEXICO TO GUATEMALA KINGDOMS, bringuinging their riots and destruction.
Barley: None
Figs: None
Grapes: None
Wheat: None
This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.
WRONG PLACE! Based on WRONG CLUES. JOSEPH SMITH PROVIDED VERY CORRECT CLUES. BUT THEY "REASONED" HE WAS THE FALSE and ignorant PROPHET.
Animal-Life Test
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following animals in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite country:
***
1 Ne. 18:25 The ox and the *** and the horse
ASSES
BULL
CALF
CALVES
CATTLE
COW
COWS
BUTTER
MILK
FATLING
FATLINGS
FIRSTLINGS
FLOCKS
His Flocks—
Our Flocks—
Their Flocks—
Flocks—
GOAT
GOATS
HERDS
HORSE
HORSES
OX
OXEN (MAYBE THE NAME GIVEN TO SOME WILD NATIVE ANIMAL? Thus a problem with translation?)
SHEEP
My Sheep—
Sheep—
SHEARER
Mosiah 15:6 As a sheep before the shearer is dumb
SOW (Swine)
3 Ne. 7:8 Or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire
SWINE - In SOUTH AMERICA THERE ARE WILD SWINES: are them "native"?. As our "dogs" GUARA=redish?
3 Ne. 14:6 Neither cast ye your pearls before swine
Ether 9:18 Cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of
ELEPHANTS
Ether 9:19 And there were elephants and cureloms
Ether 9:19 More especially the elephants, and cureloms
Evidence supporting the existence of these forms of animal life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:
***: None
Bull: None
Calf: None
Cattle: None
Cow: None
Goat: None
Horse: None
Ox: None
Sheep: None
Sow: None
Elephants: None (contemporary with Book of Mormon)
Evidence of the foregoing animals has not appeared in any form (OHIO STATE FINDINGS?)—ceramic representations, bone or skeletal remains, mural art, sculptured art, or any other form. However, in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson, evidence has been found in several forms of the presence in Book-of-Mormon times of other animals—deer, jaguars, dogs, turkeys, etc. The zero score presents a problem that will not go away with the ignoring of it. Non-LDS scholars of first magnitude—some who want to be our friends—think we have real trouble here. That evidence of the ancient existence of these animals is not elusive is found in the fact that proof of their existence in the ancient Old World is abundant. The absence of such evidence in the area proposed for our consideration in this symposium is distressing and significant, in my view.
Metallurgy Test
BELLOWS
BRASS
Plates of Brass—
Brass—
BREAST-PLATES --> found in OHIO, in many cases. Even in Gold and in Brass.
CHAINS
COPPER
GOLD
IRON
Rod of Iron—
Iron—
METALS ---> Region along the Hudson River (even in NY) was plenty of all type of metals, including of copper, iron, gold, etc. for minning and metal production.
MOULTEN
ORE
ORES
PLOW
PLOW-SHARES
STEEL
SILVER ONTARIO = ONTARIUM means ONT A R IUM = the place for minning SILVER ore (in the neck of ISTHMUS of NIAGARA)
SWORDS
Our Swords—
Their Swords—
By the Sword—
With the Sword—
His Sword—
By the Sword—
Swords—
HILT
HILTS
TOOL
TOOLS
ENGRAVE
ENGRAVED
ENGRAVEN
Engraven—
ENGRAVING
ENGRAVINGS
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of some or all of the following scripts in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite country: Cuneiform (only script used in Tower of Babel times and land—oldest and first script in the world—only one in use in Tigris-Euphrates Valley from its invention about 3500 B.C. down to 600 B.C.) for the Jaredites; Hebrew = FALSE, NEPHITES used NEPHITIC=SABELLI's CHARACTERS and LANGUAGE and (NOT) Egyptian for the Nephites (DIDN'T USE HEBREW OR EGYPT LANGUAGE or SCRIPTING).
EGYPTIAN—Reformed is first PHOENICIAN. From it came the GREEK. NEPHITIC is a "blend" of GREEK] + PHOENICIAN (reformed Egyptians) + Hebrew languages.
The name given to the style of characters in use in the days of Mormon in which the records were engraven on the sacred plates. These characters were greatly modified from those used by Nephi and the other earlier recorders (Anthon's CARACTORS show the VARIETY of NEPHITIC characters, of several styles and their modifications).
Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p.258
Morm. 9:32 Which are called among us the reformed Egyptian
EGYPTIANS—The people of Egypt.
1 Ne. 1:2 Learning of the Jews, and the language of the Egyptians: because Nephites lived in Egypt before arriving to live in Israel=Judah's kingdom.
1 Ne. 4:3 And to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians
HEBREW—The language of the people of Israel
Morm. 9:33 We should have written in Hebrew --> Hebrew text was FOUND IN OHIO PLACES (nearby CUMORAH and EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE)
WRITING
1 Ne. 6:1 Upon these plates which I am writing
WRITINGS
WRITE
Cannot Write—
Not Write—
Be Written—
Been Written—
I Have Written—
Have Written—
Is Written—
Not Written—
Which Were Written—
Were Written—
Written—
WROTE
....
Hebrew: For very exciting, but meager, script data just now (March 6, 1975) received, see the letter . . . from Professor George F. Carter, formerly of Johns Hopkins University and now of Texas A&M University. A seal found at Tlatilco (suburb of Mexico City) bears the Hebrew name, Hiram, apparently in Egyptian script! Carter's reference to other Old World scripts— Iberic, Carthaginian = PHOENICIAN, and Libyan—found on the Atlantic coast of North America—are exciting. However, they don't help the Book of Mormon script test, which deals exclusively with Cuneiform, Hebrew, and Egyptian, to be found in the Norman-Sorenson designated territory. Proof of a voyage from Libya doesn't prove the Lehi voyage from Arabia—but it could relate to or even be the Mulek voyage! A cylinder seal found at Tlatilco, Mexico, bearing a Hebrew name, Hiram! Wow!
.... In my opinion, they lend more support to Sorenson and Norman than all of the configuration-dimension-direction-topography ...
GLASS
Ether 3:1 White and clear, even as transparent glass. FOUND IN OHIO BURROW's CAVE as the huge transparent glass HAND.
The ceramic toys constitute the only evidence of the wheel in ancient times for the areas designated by the proponents. The great murals of Bonampak and of Teotihuacan contain no picture of carts or chariots. The innumerable stone sculptured monuments, portraying much of the ancient way of life—including sedan chairs—give us no representation of carts or chariots. None have been found portrayed in ceramics. A visit to the Cairo Museum, to the University of Pennsylvania Museum, to the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, [and] to the Field Museum in Chicago reveals to visitors undisputed and powerful evidence supporting the existence of wheels (utilitarian), carts, chariot, and works in glass (great numbers of glass vases and dishes survive, for example from ancient Egypt) from areas referenced in the Bible. Complete chariots of wood and iron have turned up in tombs at various points in the ancient Middle East.
To my knowledge no pre-Columbian glass has been found in the regions pointed to by Norman and Sorenson. The wheeled toys and the three glyphs from Chiapa de Corzo don't give our friends much of a total score for their geographical selections.
Conclusion
The evidence supporting the geographical views of Norman and Sorenson, under the exacting tests laid down by the text of the Book of Mormon, is indeed very meager. We have the cylinder seal from Chiapa de Corzo, the cylinder seal from Tlatilco and the toys with wheels. That's about all. This paucity of specific support presents, at least to me, a dilemma. One way out of the dilemma is to say that everything was scrambled and lost because of the upheavals described in 3 Nephi for the time of the crucifixion. In my personal opinion, this is not a satisfactory escape hatch. Virtually all of the data in the Book of Mormon must be credited to Mormon and his abridgment of the "larger plates." He and Moroni, writing in the fourth century (over 300 years after the crucifixion), were responsible for the last 400 pages of the text. And it is in those 400 pages that most of the geographical data appear. Mormon doesn't say that his references to geography are useless and hopeless.
Further, innumerable excavations made in the area we are dealing with, and in the time span (3000 B.C.—400 A.D.) with which we are involved, reveal great undisturbed architectural structures, extensive relatively undisturbed ancient strata, etc., etc.—right through the time of the crucifixion.
I don't have the answer to the dilemma. I just call it up.
I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong.
Respectfully submitted,
[signed] Thomas Stuart Ferguson
Thomas Stuart Ferguson
2 March 1975

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

SAVELLI · August 11, 2011

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,
SAVELLI

If you take the WRONG BUS toward the WRONG DIRECTION, you are not to REACH the desired DESTINATION: beneficial use of GEOGRAPHY of Book of MORMON...
That was the case of the ARCHEOLOGY OF BOOK OF MORMON because it took the WRONG BUS: the wrong TOPOGRAPHY or GEOGRAPHY of the Book of MORMON.
[\quote]
They say they trust in their FIRST and MAIN prophet, JOSEPH SMITH, and Brigham Yound, Woodroof, etc. Parley Pratt. But in the practice, they believe they were ignorant men in subjects of Science, like topography and GEOGRAPHY. Thus they believed that in subjects that are like ACADEMIC, as TOPOGRAPHY, ARCHEOLOGY, GEOGRAPHY, etc. they are the "WISES OF ZION", as if Aaron: expert in making "god" for people believe in them, as if scientific gold idol (intellectual one). Thus the advises and teachings from Joseph Smith and others first ones, related to such expertise fields of human knowledge, are not to be linked to "religion" even if sponsored, somehow, by the LDS people, as they sponsored Aaron's gold calf. It is like if Moses had died in the Mountain and religion was to be based on Aaron's scientific guidance on how to scientifically build a gold calf for people be able to "touch" on something "tangible" of their religion, as Egyptians. Instead on staying just believing on some accounts (tales? fables?) of some gold plates that nobody can touch. At least they now touch the remains of a nephitic civilization, quite like they could grasp on the feets of the gold calf.
It appears that Joseph Smith and other first leaders was very clear that NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION spread from somewhere having as extreme limits the New York town region (the ONANdongas Indians region, Cumorah Hill, EAST SEA = ONTARIO LAKE) to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS.
The most clear disclosure about that was in the event of the discovery of the skeleton of ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, next to the Illinois River. In such occasion Joseph Smith disclosed about who such ZELPH lamanite was as so important to be known from Cumorah Hill and of the ONANdongas Indians (they are from N.Y., and acording NY Jews, are descendents from Judah, from ONAN) and told such person was known (personally...) up to the Rocky Mountains (as New Mexico... we can guess...). There is vast literature on that, including in Church records. But Smart "Zion's scientist, Wises" convinced that the first leaders were "ignorants" in science subjects: removed them.
We can see such VAST NEPHITIC EMPIRE in the following map. Just click on the next URL and you will see the MAIN BROAD GEOGRAPHIC AREA of NEPHITIC LANDS.
http://img12.mediafire.com/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg
You can see that the NEPHITIC LAND is composed of relatively COLD WEATHER LANDS, not WARM and HOT as the MEXICAN to CENTRAL AMERICA (GUATEMALA) lands that are the "MODELS" for the IMAGINARY LANDS ("tropical ones") used for the CHURCH, for the LDS as FARMS and etc. It is evident that ANIMALS and VEGETALS from cold weather places, the extreme majority of them as mentioned in Book of Mormon, are not to live in such "tropical hot places". What an imagination! Dare!
You can see that all lands for NEPHITIC PEOPLE LIVE are quite temperated to quite cold lands, as numbered from 1 (New York town region with their OnanDongas Indians), 2 (Cumorah hill region, Ontario Lake), 3 (Erie Lake, Niagara Falls, Kirtland-Oh), 4 (Independence, Missouri), 5 (Nauvoo, Illinois), 6 (Winter Quarters), 8 (Los Lunas in Rocky Mountains = Sierra Nevada in New Mexico), 10 (where ZELF was found next to Illinois River).
That is basically the GEOGRAPHY of BOOK of MORMON in its CORE: a quite COLD WEATHER-CLIMATE CONDITION, ideal for all cultures of all plantations, trees and animals as mentioned in Book of Mormon. For sure they are nothing ideal for the CLIMATE and WEATHER of MEXICO and Central America: appears to be a joke say that.
You can see the MOST VERY IMPORTANT AND START OF THE CORE OF THE NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION, AT ITS START IN U.S.A., around NEW YORK STATE and N.Y. town:
http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23fdc8033ffcb901516eb7eeb84e8e4681db09f84b912de47d6b4ef692369f06g.jpg
JUST CLICK ON ABOVE URL and you will see from the place where the NEPHITES unboarded the SAIL-SHIP ("CARAVEL TYPE", small but very fast), next to Liberty Statue (to be made) in LAND OF LIBERTY. They moved toward HUDSON RIVER and arrived in CUMORAH HILL and in LAKE ONTARIUM = ONTARIO = "ONT" A R IUM, the LAKE (EAST SEA) of SILVER, as it was mined in the "neck" most narrow of Isthmus of Niagara, where we have the Niagara Falls (Sidon River Falls). You can see that the WEST SEA (ERIE LAKE) in fact is sited at the WEST (or western) of the ONTARIO LAKE = EAST SEA... Can you see?
For sure the CLIMATE (and WHEATER) of such above shown region, around SEA WEST (LAKE ERIE) and SEA EAST (LAKE ONTARIO) and CUMORAH HILL and to HUDSON RIVER to N.Y. TOWN, are region with COLD CLIMATE and VERY SEVERE COLD WEATHER. I had been in such region some times. Such is the IDEAL region for growing vegetation as described in BOOK OF MORMON, not doing something absurd as having the silly idea of growing them in MEXICO to GUATEMALA and most absurd is the archeological idea of trying to find some grains and seed of that very cold climate in so hot tropical climate places. Crazy ideas.... nonsense... Hear the prophets!
<H3 class=r>Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior
www.utlm.org/onlineresources/zelph.htm - Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior. by Sandra Tanner ... prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea (EASTern SEA) to the Rocky Mountains (NEW MEXICO???). ...
<H3 class=r>Zelph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph - Zelph is a minor figure in Mormon history. In May and June 1834 Joseph ... were from Zelph, a "white Lamanite" general who was a righteous man. .... Woodruff also states that Zelph "that was known from the hill Cumorah on East sea to ... (EAST SEA --> ONTARIO SEA=LAKE is the "SEA" next to CUMORAH HILL that is "ON" the LAKE, "ON its MARGIN" in Good English)
</H3></H3>
To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:
Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test
Plant-Life Test
The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants (FOR COLD/TEMPERATED CLIMATE) in regions proposed ("TROPICAL, EQUATORIAL, VERY HOT") as Nephite-Lamanite country of people that don't trust on their first and main prophets... for them Nephitic empire was USA...:
FIGS
3 Ne. 14:16 Gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles
GRAPES
2 Ne. 15:2 He looked that it should bring forth grapes
2 Ne. 15:2 And it brought forth wild grapes
2 Ne. 15:4 I looked that it should bring forth grapes
2 Ne. 15:4 It brought forth wild grapes
3 Ne. 14:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of
Barley: None
Figs: None
Grapes: None -------> YIOU CAN SEE NEXT (BELOW) HOW FALSE IS THIS CONCLUSION. IT IS FOR TROPICAL-EQUATORIAL CLIMATE (MEXICO, GUATEMALA)
Wheat: None
This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.
WRONG PLACE. WRONG SCIENTISTS. THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BOOK OF MORMON MORE SERIOUSLY. AND THEY SHOULD BE FARMERS.
I HAVE HAD MANY FARMS IN MY LIFE. SOME FOR COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS. SOME FOR VERY HOT EQUATORIAL CLIMATE CONDITIONS. IT IS VERY ABSRUD FOR MY MIND THE IDEA OF SOME INTELLIGENT CIVILIZATION TRYING TO PLANT VEGETATION FOR VERY COLD CLIMATE IN MY EQUATORIAL FARMS. I WOULD CALL THEM CRAZY. And the opposite is true, because the first frost would kill or ruin such vegetation. For sure it is possible to have some slow genetic manipulation/adaptations.
If these SCIENTISTS used less salt in their Academic diet, they would had selected the correct GEOGRAPHY for the NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION (also Jareditic...) and now they could have TOPOGRAPHIC good maps with the trials followed by Indians in their travels and for their battles. Maybe I would re-open my mapping company for doing that. I already made some maps, for such purpose, just for "demonstration" of such capability and I discovered some huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES over the NIAGARA RIVER, downstream NIAGARA FALLS, in a restricted Military Zone (thus well preserved one....). Many sites were published on that.... I was just following Indian trails, doing some mapping service with USGS topographic maps, of very good quality, and some satelite pictures of very high resolution at hand. And I found the "shoulders" of the Bridges!
It is AMAZING when SCIENTISTS have EYES and can't SEE the evident TRUTH. That their GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF MORMON is very BIASED, very FAULTY: DEVIATED.
It is PLENTTY OF NATIVE and WILD GRAPES in COLD-TEMPERATED CLIMATE of USA and CANADA. Also of other similar FRUITS of BOOK OF MORMON.
Searched with GOOGLE for GRAPES with: wild NATIVE grapes USA CANADA
· Wild Grape
www.wildfoods.info/wildfoods/wildgrape.html -
From then on, I would occasionally pick a cluster of wild grapes when I was .... are native over a broad area of the eastern United States and Canada and ...
· How to Identify Native Grapevines | eHow.com
www.ehow.com › Plant Care -
Over 20 different species of wild grape are native to the United States and Canada, comprising nearly half of the 50 species of wild grape species ...
· Fast Growing Grape Vines | eHow.com
www.ehow.com › Plant Care
Riverbank Grape (Vitis riparia) is a vigorously developing wild grape vine ...
Show more results from e ehow.com
· Grape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape -
Native purple grapes belonging to the Vitis genus proliferated in the wild across North ... are native to the Eastern United States and Canada. Vitis riparia, a wild vine of North America, is sometimes used for winemaking and for jam. ...
· * Vitis labrusca - (Wine): Definition
en.mimi.hu › Wine -
Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. ... cross-pollinated version of the wild grape native to North America. ...
· QDMA Canada - Natural Species Profile -- Wild Grapes
www.qdma.ca/index.php?...wild-grapes...
QDMA Canada. slide-top. what-we-do_01 what-we-do_02 what-we-do_03 ... Wild grapes (Vitis spp.) are native to the U.S. and found in the wild in all corners ...
· Types of Grape Vines | Garden Guides
www.gardenguides.com/96039-types-grape-vines.html -
Because a bacteria present in American soils is lethal to non-native grapes, ... Wild Grapes. The United States and Canada together are home to over 20 ...
· Types of Grape
www.cookeryonline.com/mealexperience/Grapes/Index.htm -
Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. There are over 5000 varieties of wine grapes. Below are some of the main types, ...
· Where Did Grapes Originate?

answers.yourdictionary.com › Answers › Food/Cooking -
The Vitis labrusca is native to the eastern United States, and areas of Canada. The grapes grown on this cultivar are usually used to make table wine, ...
· Grapes - growing Grapes - how to grow Grapes - USA Gardener
usagardener.com/how_to.../how_to_grow_grapes.php -
Tips For Buying Bulk Soil. Frost Dates - USA. Frost Dates - Canada ... and unlike most fruit crops, many grapes are native to North America. The wild grapes found by early settlers were quickly rejected because they were high in acid, ...
With best personal regards, sincerely yours,
SAVELLI

SAVELLI · August 12, 2011

[\quote]
Well that puts the idea of there being no native American grapes to rest.
[\quote]
I knew since 1978 that some fruits and plants of Canada, in Montreal, were from WILD origin, even being like of European - Israel aspect, as some apple and grapes. Also there are onions, garlic, blue"berry", "morus" (it is a hebrew name, mr: nephitic/sabellic,?), figs, etc. Because my wife and I asked about them, in a kind of botanical garden we were visiting in our return trip from London to San Francisco and we stopped in many places, as Quebec, Montreal, Buffalo, Chicago, ...SLC,... (we were living in Berkeley and studying at the University of California, where I got my M.Sc. in Sanitary Engineer and started my PhD). They couldn't explain how the same plant species could had come from Europe and Israel to Canada, but they were not exactly the same modern variety, but some wild varieties. We had none idea that Book of Mormon could be real thing.
There are persons that think that Geography is just something related to MAPS, to topography. In fact it is very BROAD WIDENED information linked to the position of a given place and that information changes through time (needs frequent updating). We have something like geographic information system (GIS), geographical information system.
A geographic information system (GIS) lets us visualize, question, analyze, interpret, and understand data in many ways that reveal relationships, patterns, and trends in the form of maps, globes, reports, and charts. They point out for a serious scientist that Book of Mormon is not telling us that Nephites' kingdom and lends were anywhere from Mexico to somewhere in Central America. In fact they suffered with the collapse of Nephitic empire, but "later on", out of the pages of Book of Mormon.
It is very clear, from the information provided you in my last post about NATIVE WILD GRAPES, that they were only living in WESTERN USA and in CANADA. If they were brought by the NEPHITES and unloaded at the harbor of N.Y. (at the gateway for LIBERTY LAND... with the "virtual STATUE of LIBERTY" as verbal WARNING from leaders), and being the NEPHITES KINGDOM basically in the WESTERN PART of the USA, it is natural that the GRAPES were cultivated in the NEPHITES KINGDOM LANDS. Quite like a GEOGRAPHIC "GIS" relationship, a LINK between one event (the cultivation) and other (the weather, climate, soil, mapping, etc.). It is very interesting that the GRAPES didn't go (in their CULTIVATION) to the WEST COAST, as to CALIFORNIA, as to the NAPA VALLEY. Where I visited the GRAPES plantation and even some WINE industries as ALMADEN, where I got quite "high", while visiting the industrial plant (with other coleagues and professors of the Univ. of California... technical visit). There is a wine with the brand name SAVELLI. Maybe it has some 2,600 years brand name... (not so "special" flavor. Maybe we need some more 2,000 years to learn the right "recipe").
In the case of FIGS, probably they already became HYBRIDS with other varieties that came from Europe and Middle East, because it is very easy for them generate hybrids as result of easy polinization process. It is like the original European Bees "disappearing" by assimilation with their reproduction with African Bees causing their "assimilation" and thus the original population of European Bees "disappears" after the "contact", quite like we had with the contact of "native figs" (from Nephites period) with recent Immigrants (after year 1,500) and their imported new variety of figs.
What about replace FIGS by APPLES?
http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/nativetrees.htm Wild Apples / crab apples
See such WILD NATIVE INDIAN APPLES: http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/images/indigenesetforestiers/pommetiercomp.jpg
Our trees are grown from seeds and their small fruits are hence variable. They are great pollinators of grafted apples. The spring flower show is spectacular and the small fruit, having a very high pectin content help make great jellies.
Apples, History and Legends of Apples, Apple Recipes, Apple ... -
whatscookingamerica.net/Fruit/Apples.htm - There are between 25 to 30 kinds of wild apples grown throughout the world with seven ... Crab apple trees are the only native apples to the United States. ...
Cranberry (native Wild APPLES) see them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cranberries20101210.jpg
Cranberries are low, creeping shrubs or vines up to 2 metres (7 ft) long and 5 to 20 centimetres (2 to 8 in) in height;^[2] they have slender, wiry stems that are not thickly woody and have small evergreen leaves. The flowers are dark pink, with very distinct reflexed petals, leaving the style and stamens fully exposed and pointing forward. They are pollinated by bees. The fruit is a berry that is larger than the leaves of the plant; it is initially white, but turns a deep red when fully ripe. It is edible, with an acidic taste that can overwhelm its sweetness. They can be found in acidic bogs throughout the cooler regions of the Northern Hemisphere
HAVE IN MIND THAT THE APPLES BECAME CULTIVATED BY THE NEPHITES, THUS IN NEPHITIC LANDS AND KINGDOM:
Cranberries are a major commercial crop in certain American states and Canadian provinces (see cultivation and uses below). Most cranberries are processed into products such as juice, sauce, and sweetened dried cranberries, with the remainder sold fresh to consumers. Cranberry sauce is regarded an indispensable part of traditional American and Canadian Thanksgiving menus and some European winter festivals
Vaccinium macrocarpon or Oxycoccus macrocarpus (Large cranberry, American Cranberry, Bearberry) native to northeastern North America (eastern Canada, and eastern United States, south to North Carolina at high altitudes = COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE). It differs from V. oxycoccos in the leaves being larger, 10–20 mm long, and in its slightly apple-like taste.
Vaccinium erythrocarpum or Oxycoccus erythrocarpus (Southern Mountain Cranberry) native to southeastern North America at high altitudes (COLD WEATHER/CLIMATE)in the southern Appalachian Mountains, and also in eastern Asia.
Etymology and history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranberry
The name cranberry derives from "craneberry", first named by early European settlers in America who felt the expanding flower, stem, calyx, and petals resembled the neck, head, and bill of a crane. Another name used in northeastern Canada is mossberry. The traditional English name for Vaccinium oxycoccos, fenberry, originated from plants found growing in fen (marsh) lands. In 17th century New England cranberries were sometimes called "bearberries" as bears were often seen feeding on them.
In North America, Native Americans were the first to use cranberries as food. Native Americans used cranberries in a variety of foods, especially for pemmican, wound medicine and dye. Calling the red berries Sassamanash ---> (SASSA MANAH = MANAH SASSA), natives may have introduced cranberries to starving English settlers in Massachusetts who incorporated the berries into traditional Thanksgiving feasts. American Revolutionary War veteran Henry Hall is credited as first to farm cranberries in the Cape Cod town of Dennis around 1816. In the 1820s cranberries were shipped to Europe.^[6] Cranberries became popular for wild harvesting in the Nordic countries and Russia. In Scotland, the berries were originally wild-harvested but with the loss of suitable habitat, the plants have become so scarce that this is no longer done
Thus, we can "see" other evidence that PLANTS from the COLD to TEMPERATE climate were linked in their spatial distribution, over the USA and CANADA, to the same distribution of NEPHITES and LAMANITES over the same GEOGRAPHIC political boundaries for such kingdoms, as provided by the Book of Mormon and True Authorities.
That is GIS in action, in movement, into practice. Making what could be dispersed information, making a coherent data bank and dynamic, for an useful purpose.
With best personal regards, sincerely yours,
SAVELLI, M.Sc. U.California Berkeley, 1978, university professor, teaching since 1968..., researcher.

SAVELLI · August 12, 2011

A "STRANGE VIEWPOINT" on the GEOGRAPHY of the BOOK OF MORMON based on FIRST HAND information provided by the very FIRST LEADERS and PROPHETS.

From that and from Book of Mormon itself we conclude that CUMORAH is "ON the EAST SEA", thus quite on shore line of ONTARIO LAKE, which is the EAST SEA, as it is EAST side of NIAGARA ISTHMUS (the narrow strip of land separating EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE to the WEST SEA=ERIE LAKE and ERIE LAKE is WEST sided in relation to the ONTARIO LAKE=EAST SEA and of ISTHMUS of NIAGARA...). In fact for long time I was responsible (also) for TOPOGRAPHIC SERVICES and GEODESIC SERVICES and HIGH PRECISION MAPPING SERVICES, etc. (advanced GEOGRAPHY provider services...), having been Technical Director of one good Mapping Company and also one share holder of it, in Brazil. Thus I am able to reason as a SCIENTIST that is no RELIGIOUSLY BIASED, but REASON based on TECHNICAL EVIDENCES. As when having to decide about the LIMITS of properties (as farms) when their old property maps and memorial describing their primitive limits are "gone" and landmarks ALSO... And some good information must be retrieved as if by the work of INVESTIGATORS, of forensic detective... Maybe the road or river pathway was changed in decades or over more than a century since the property was bought and now there is a litigation going on. What was the correct GEOGRAPHY for that region, for their land limits? No LDS.

Knowing that the NEPHITIC KINGDOM was from the CUMORAH HILL, and beyound, going to N.Y. State and N.Y. town itself (the "gate" for LIBERTY LAND, with the Liberty Statue herself providing the WELCOME at the HARBOR...), and looking at the TOPOGRAPHIC information provided in the Book of Mormon, with eyes of TOPOGRAPHS, we can quite easily conclude what will be presented BELOW. The position of ZARAHemla (a hybrid JEW-ARAB name, of Mulekites+Arab crew and ARAB WOMEN... WOW!) fort town and the position of main road going to CUMORAH and how it was linked to the town of ZARAHemla, by INDIAN trails. Thus we are to start with the INDIAN TRAILS and ZarahEMLA. That is a quite nice TOPOGRAPHIC work, as it provides an easy way to find and locate town, even the ones that SUNK into the SEA (GREAT LAKES... as some INDIANS TRAIL have their pathway going INTO the SEA...). HUM!!! You can see, in the proper site about 1921 BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY ...., how retrieving the INDIAN TRAILS provided the location of MANTI town (nowadays DETROIT town, USA) and of the quite nearby hill where we have the RIPLIANCUM splendid and vast VIEW of the WEST SEA and some more waters, as SIDON RIVER passing by MANTI TOWN and HURON LAKE (North Sea) and more... and the position where the Lamanites, that were killed trying to cross SIDON RIVER and reaching the other margin, where SANK into the WEST SEA (lake ERIE, which is SIDON RIVER "LENTHIC").

http://www.mediafire...7d1a9ba846g.jpg very ENLARGED image

http://www.mediafire...7d1a9ba844g.jpg not so ENLARGED image.

You can see the SIDON RIVER (NIAGARA RIVER) in its final pathway, from down part to upper part of your video screen, discharging into the EAST SEA, EASTERN SEA, which is LAKE ONTARIO. On very top is the start of the NIAGARA LAKE, and on LEFT of it we have a MODERN CANADIAN TOWN (militar fort) that in past was a MULEKITE town, the ZARAHemla town and fort, that was protected by the high walls and fast water velocity of Niagara River (thus the existence of modern fort, in both sides). In the right side, USA side, it was sited the Indian trail going (upward) toward CUMORAH HILL. And if downward it was a way to go, through SUSPENDED BRIDGE, to ZARAHemla. Or through boats in Erie Lake, facing the NAVY of the Zarahemla Forces (Army).

http://www.mediafire...4376931fa6g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire...4376931fa4g.jpg quite reduced size image.

You can see, encircled by a thick yellow line, more or less the limits of the OLD ZARAHEMLA town, now built with a modern Canadian town (fort). You can see also the Indian trails, along both margins of the Niagara River (Sidon River "LOTHIC condition") in the way they were going to ZARAHEMLA and to CUMORAH HILL and others places. It is evident that modern construction and agricultural uses of the land destroy the evidences of such old Indian trails.

http://www.mediafire...39fe5d47a6g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire...39fe5d47a4g.jpg smaller sized image

You can see we moved upstream, to the mouth of ERIE LAKE into the NIAGARA RIVER while keeping the discharge of NIAGARA RIVER into the ONTARIO LAKE. Thus now this map is showing the whole ISTHMUS of NIAGARA. The paradise for the USA and CANADIAN turism industry with NIAGARA FALLS... Even we went there. Very beautiful.

Please, pay attention to your LEFT, to a CHANNEL that is the WELLAND CHANNEL, build in the SHORTEST DISTANCE between WEST SEA and EAST SEA (ERIE LAKE and ONTARIO LAKE) through the NARROWEST of the NECK of the LAND separating them.... Thus such CHANNEL is exactly following the PATHWAY described in the Book of Mormon, in great detail, as the distance a Nephite would take one and a half day to walk... BE SMART scientist eating and drinking too much bitter salt: unhealthy. Such channel was also built to transport a huge flow of FRESH WATEER to supply it for hydropówer generation at the binational hydroelectric (USA-CANADIAN) at the shoreline of ONTARIO LAKE. Why was it built at the shortest distance possible, that of BOOK OF MORMON? I am engineer, but if a ROAD can be made in a shorter distance, it will cost less, as a normal rule of good engineering... Thus you try to have the least distance pathway between two points, not making unnecessary curves...

Look at what happens just after (downstream) of NIAGARA FALLS.... HUM? DEVIL HOLES? Guess right? WRONG. Two huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES, as those built by the BRIDGES in PERU, with NEPHITES technology... HUM! NEPHITES technology? WOW? But Nephites had disappeared... Are you sure? I am nephite descandent: Guarany.

Look at the MAP, just some little downstream the falls of Niagara Falls (going upward in your screen), and you will see two parallel GREEN LINES crossing the NIAGARA RIVER (just at the "left" of the word JERSON, which is in the right side of Niagara River...). Such two lines, in vivid briliant green, are two SUSPENDED BRIDGES. Going upward, you are following Niagara River downstream, reaching the discharge into ONTARIO LAKE, which is on very top of the map. At the left side of discharge is ZARAHEMLA. The place for the "confort, relief" of captain ZARAH. After sufferings in bringuing such crew and passengers to such place of relief of pains and sufferings. In modernity ZARAHEMLA is "FORT GEORGE", militar town of CANADA, which was totally made in WOOD (also as many USA fort towns). Thus Book of Mormon is correct, that STONE was not required to make towns or even FORT TOWNS in cold places and where wood is abundant. So false WISES teach wrong about HOUSING by Nephites. MANTI should had been made totally in wood and Earth reinforcements (hills + ditches).

http://www.mediafire...988a1e7196g.jpg very enlarged image

http://www.mediafire...988a1e7194g.jpg small sized image

You can see an INCA SUSPENDED BRIDGE, in Peru, quite like GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE of San Francisco, USA. But made with INDIAN (NEPHITIC) TECHNOLOGY. Maybe the technology came originally from the JAREDITES and was improved and enlartged by the Nephites.

http://www.mediafire...e1977f9876g.jpg very enlarged map

http://www.mediafire...e1977f9874g.jpg smaller sized image

http://www.wikimapia...20&z=15&I=0&m=s AT THIS TIJME THE VEGETATION WAS COVERING THE SOIL, THUS COVERING INDIAN TRIALS AND ANY EVIDENCE OF THE SUSPENDED BRIDGE EVIDENCES OF HAVING EXISTENCE IN PAST.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=13&l=9&m=s A very broad view, as if from a very high altitude flight.

http://www.wikimapia...22&z=17&l=9&m=s A very close up view, showing quite like Indian pathway (dense walked) toward NOTHING: the suspended bridge (that is missing). At the time of picture the vegetation was covering the soil (not the case of previous pictures, showing the bare soil, rocky: limestones).

Between the positions "1 to 1", crossing the River Niagara, and "2 to 2", crossing the River Niagara, are the two SUSPENDED BRIDGES located on the map. See next.

http://www.mediafire...866066c126g.jpg very enlarged picture.

http://www.mediafire...866066c124g.jpg small sized picture.

You can see the NIAGARA RIVER (SIDON RIVER) flowing downstream Niagara Falls toward ZARAHEMLA, thus toward Devils Hole throat, the place for the two Suspende Bridge. For some time I worked in a Construction and planning and design of bridges (including suspended bridges) and tunnels and huge structures: 40 years ago... Maybe the right side suspended bridge could had been Jareditic design... and it was rebuilt by Nephites. With increasing traffic they built a larger one, at the left.

http://www.mediafire...9235bd0ab6g.jpg Very enlarged picture - design

http://www.mediafire...9235bd0ab4g.jpg small sized picture - design.

You can see the schematic design of the "shoulder" of the suspended bridge on its support at the left side, when bridge touchs the ground. It appears there were some type of parking place for people waiting their time of crossing and for some type of CUSTOMS/iMMIGRATION. Red lines going upward to the left probably were toward roads (Indian trail) along the shoreline of ERIE Lake, as to board Sail Ship Haggoth's type to travel to Manti... And red lines going to the right probably were toward Zarahemla, bordering very close the Niagara (Sidon) River. The intermediate pair or red lines would go to some intermediate places. At the time of this picture there was no vegetation.

http://www.mediafire...409b92f996g.jpg very enlarged picture, showing nice ground.

http://www.mediafire...409b92f994g.jpg quite small sized picture

You can see that probably we may had a THIRD SUSPENDED BRIDGE in parallel to the other two main bridges. It appears it was "downstream" sited (upper of video).

http://www.mediafire...d070834525g.jpg Average sized map, of good size.

As a civil hydraulic, sanitary and environmental engineer, appreciate to use good topographic/aerophotogrametric maps, as this one provided by U.S.G.S. of USA and in fact it is very good to examine precise technical information, as from Book of Mormon, with precise and reliable maps, as from USGS. You can see the place for 2 or 3 Suspended Bridges, in parallel position, crossing the Niagara River (Sidon river or THE GREAT CID RIVER... eL Cid), are for the position or place "128" at the deepest of the River Niagara, receiving the title "Devils Hole". For sure any person falling from the Suspended Bridge and falling on water, was sinked into Devils Hole...

http://www.mediafire...c7ea6b4be5g.jpg

Other view of the LEFT SHOULDER of the Suspended Bridges passing over the Devils Hole of Niagara River.

http://www.mediafire...df3cc4ca85g.jpg

This is the RIGHT SHOULDER of the Suspended Bridges passing over the Devils Hole of the Niagara River (as seen on top of your video screen). Arriving in quite like the modern bordering avenue, you have the old Indian trails had a pathway goind left to MANTI town by bordering the EAST side (margin) of the WEST SEA (Lake ERIE) and then turning right at the far end and reaching Manti (nowadays Detroit). The other Indian trail pathway, in the opposite direction, departing from the suspended bridges, was going to CUMORAH HILL.

http://www.mediafire...daba6a3855g.jpg

The main suspended bridge is presented in PLAN VIEW (design in upper part) and in a VERTICAL CROSS-SECTION (in the lower part). You can see it was quite long, being of some 336 m length (some 1,000 ft). Even a respectiful span for modern suspended bridge without counter-weight provision, as in this case (no space...). Probably they used the caves for such purpose of anchorage... (see the pictures of something like caves...). Quite like marvelous engineering undertaking. Some 130m above the turbulent waters of Sidon River flowing quite like toward the h*** in great and deadly noises...

Best personal regards, sincerely yours,

engineer Celso Savelli Gomes, university professor, M.Sc. Univ. California (Berkeley, 1978), teaching since 1968, researcher, cattle farmer, archeologist, LDS...

SAVELLI · August 12, 2011

HOAX? H-O-A-X???

As is my huge basalt stone (complex geometric cuttings), with Asiatic ideograms, I found in our farms, in North of Brazil, 2 years ago, after 30 years searching them?

Remember from last posted message:

http://www.mediafire...e1977f9876g.jpg very enlarged map

http://www.mediafire...e1977f9874g.jpg smaller sized image AT THIS TIME IT WAS WITHOUT LEAVES (maybe without vegetation), as at the end of winter time, melted ice.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=15&l=9&m=s AT THIS TIJME THE VEGETATION WAS COVERING THE SOIL, as if at the end of summer time. Thus vegetation was covering or hidding (from air view) INDIAN TRIALS AND ANY EVIDENCE OF THE SUSPENDED BRIDGE had existed IN PAST.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=17&l=9&m=s A very close up view, showing quite like Indian pathway (dense walked) toward NOTHING: from the left higher place of suspended bridge (that is missing) sinking into the Niagara River. At the time of picture (end of summer?) the vegetation was covering the soil (not the case of previous pictures, showing the bare soil, white parts in picture being rocky soil or bare rocks: limestones pebles and rocks).

Between the positions "1 to 1", crossing the River Niagara, and "2 to 2", crossing the River Niagara, are the two SUSPENDED BRIDGES located on the map. See next.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=9&l=9&m=s A very high elevation flight view (as from U-2 planes). The "cross signal" ( + ) remained over the exact vertical place of the HOAX "suspended bridges" just downstream the Niagara Falls. YOU CAN "SEE", with EYES of UNBELIEVER in prophet Joseph Smith toward witnesses of ZELF's discovery and disclosure, that there is an EAST SEA (Ontario Lake) "on" CUMORAH HILL, both on the upper part of the screen. And you can SEE that there is also a WEST SEA, the LAKE HURON, going WEST, in relation to ISTHMUS of NIAGARA and of EAST SEA (ONTaRium Lake). Also UNBELIEVERS, worshipers of Mexican to Guametalaian IDOLS, made in Gold=?, and growing COLD PLANTS in EQUATORIAL CLIMATE, that there is in fact a very NARROW "NECK" of land between EAST SEA (ONTarium lake) and WEST SEA (ERIE Lake), and that at the most NARROW of such NECK is the place for a Nephite walk (in Indian trail) in ONE and a HALF DAY, and that is the LENGTH of the WELLAND HUGEST CHANNEL for NAVIGATION and HYDROPOWER GENERATION (by USA-CANADA binational Co.) at the shore of EAST SEA (ONTaRium Lake), with hugest CARGO SHIPs being able to travel from CHICAGO to HONG KONG. Are LDS people "blind"? Have EYES and can't SEE? Are unable to read what their first LEADERS told them about the KINGDOM of Nephites? I am just a LAMANITE LDS, descendent of INDIANS GUARANY, GUARA=redish red skin and NY=humble people. Oh, Israel !!! Did you, wises of Zion, became also like HOAX? Where the true SCIENCE, that is based in following the true prophets? Moses?

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=7&l=9&m=s A much BROADER view of the NEPHITES KINGDOM. You can see the MAIN CORE of it, from almost NEW YORK town (the unboarding place into the LIBERTY LAND, under the virtual presence of the STATUE OF LIBERTY at the HARBOR...) to the HUDSON RIVER (the main entrance route, where the Lamanites were first "backed" by Nephites, up to the virulent hybridization with the "red skin", GUARA Indians...) and then getting into the EAST SEA (the ONTaRium Lake: you can SEE it) and NEXT to it, "ON IT", the CUMORAH HILL. And going left you can see the ISTHMUS OF NIAGARA, as if a thin NECK of LAND between EAST SEA and WEST SEA. The narrowest of such NECK was the place of HaGGot heavy cargo Sail Ships (also for some passengers, "the disgrace" as trying overbooking, as common accidents in Brazil, Amazon River...) and now is the Welland Channel. Going West you can see another NECK, now of waters passing between USA and Canada, at the town of DETROIT = old MANTI town of Book of Mormon, going to NORTH LANDS and NORTH SEA = S.Clair + HURON LAKE + MICHIGAN LAKE.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.127987&lon=-79.05722&z=6&l=9&m=s Now you can see almost the LEFT "normal limit" of NEPHITIC EMPIRE, at its PEAK, going the NORTH SEA and NORTH LANDS to the HeadS of Sidon RiverS, which is at the nowadays CHICAGO TOWN. For sure it took so many MONTHS of travel, by SAIL SHIPS, quite like following the MONSOON weather wind seasons (in Asia) to navigate to one direction and then to the other, mainly with heavy cargo sail ships, as HaGGoTTi's, thus going from Manti to Lake St. Clair to Lake Huron, to Lake Michigan. And then could continue, from Chicago canoing down through the Illinois River, through Sidon River branch South, to Mississippi River and Gulf of Mexico. Thus "MANTI=Detroit" and "CHICAGO=Head of Sidon RiverS" were very important KEY towns in Geography of BoM. By this route, known by ZELPH, the White Lamanite Warrior, and as disclosed by prophet JOSEPH SMITH, was possible to go from N.YORK town/harbor to refuges in Rocky Mountains (like LOS LUNAS, New Mexico), quite like became similar/restored with S.L.C. You can see Joseph disclosed a VAST EMPIRE, not a tiny shy Guatemalaian one.

al margin of Niagara River up to the top of such RAMP, the place of the CAVES for installing such VERY THICK ROPES. The thinner and first ROPE used for crossing the Niagara River would be replaced (pulling) progressivelly thicker sections of other ROPES, up to the final very thick ROPE, to resist very greatest TENSION. Quite like used by INCA Indians of Peru for crossing similar very deep and narrow precipices of similar Rivers... http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/fbde46c27499fc08063df924cf591bd27275a5ab66d28fc51d43131988a1e7194g.jpg INCA suspended bridge (Indians of Peru)

WHAT ABOUT if the INDIAN TRAILS in fact are just an ILLUSION, the result of some nearby CONSTRUCTION Companies discharging their construction solid wastes into the Niagara River? And just DUMPING them over the SLOPE of the steep margin of the Niagara River, for the steep margin causing such "solid waste" slide down to the River? Quite a criminous environmental practice? When such material appears to be very "white" in black-and-white material, suggesting it be "limestone" material, quite like useful for earthfillings and quite easy to dump around, without need of such more expensive "dispatch to Devils stomach". Also why did we have 3 (three) such points of discharge? And for what they would need the construction of TUNNELS in such places for DUMPING SOLID WASTES? To store some NUCLEAR WASTES? Plutonium? According the very old U.S.G.S. map, such area next to the "left shoulders" of the suspended bridge was ALREADY the OLD "wintergreen flat", a housing complex that can be seen nicelly, in modern days, in:

In front of it, going to left, toward the River Niagara margin, you can see the remains of one important Indian Trail crossing the modern avenue (one branch) and the other branch, from right, was coming from the suspended bridges (in a quite "fainted" Indian trail, but yet visible). SEE THEM. http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=43.1276429&lon=-79.0624237&z=16&l=9&m=s

Well, in any way these are HOAX (H-O-A-X) theories. My wife and I had been there in 1978, quite almost yet in Honey-Moon, but would never imagine going to INSPECT the DUMP SITE... or SUSPENDED BRIDGES site...

For sure some persons, even of USA, never visited the CORE of Nephitic Lands, the true ones, around CUMORAH HILL, but even they were FOOLED going to visit the false lands (religious turism) in Mexico to Guatemala or elsewhere... quite like fooled Israelites touching the false gold in calf god, instead in believing in Moses' God they couldn't see or touch as basis of their religion, instead of the "Egyptian Religion based on idols/things" they can touch on or at least SEE shinning and foolishing them.

Best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI (SAB=SAV = SABaoth ELI in Nephitic=Sabellic language reads ELI SABaoth = My God Lord of Heavenly Army = My God Jehovah God = I am Israelite).

Very worldwide spread family and branches and corrupted spellings, even through Asia (as SABER, SABERI, Sabella, Sabelliev, Isabela, Isabel, Elisabeth, Saberiah, Sabal=Florida flag, Sabines, etc.).

Dan Vogel · August 12, 2011

Joseph A.,

I found it interesting that none of the proposed models, including that of Elder Anthony W. Ivins, was based in the present United States.

By this time problems with distances and population growth in the BOM were well known and the hunt was on to find a suitable apologetic response. You might want to supplement Talmage’s journal entries with another member of the committee, namely Janne M. Sjodahl. In his diary, Sjodahl records discussions the committee had that clearly point to the apologetic motivations behind rejection of traditional hemispheric geography (Diary, 22 Jan. 1921, LDS Church History Library).

kolipoki09 · August 12, 2011

I just have two questions for you. They are simple and direct.
1- Please show (or repeat) your evidence for the similarity between what "Nephite" characters and "Sabelli script" or alphabet.
I understand that "Sabelli script" is supposed to be "unknown".
2- How did Lehi and the Nephites learn to write in "Sabelli script" and why did they use that instead of Hebrew or "Reformed Egyptian" in your theory?
Your posts are a bit difficult to understand because of the translation problem, and I would like you to just give a simple, short explanation of these two points if you can.

He doesn't answer questions. He just cuts and pastes.

He didn't answer the same questions when I asked them and debunked him two weeks ago.

Dan Vogel - it's good to see you posting on this topic!

SAVELLI · August 12, 2011

Joseph A.,
By this time problems with distances and population growth in the BOM were well known and the hunt was on to find a suitable apologetic response. You might want to supplement Talmage’s journal entries with another member of the committee, namely Janne M. Sjodahl. In his diary, Sjodahl records discussions the committee had that clearly point to the apologetic motivations behind rejection of traditional hemispheric geography (Diary, 22 Jan. 1921, LDS Church History Library).

For sure Aaron, even being a very good person, was full of good motivations and of good intentions (it is said h*** is also full of persons who made so great terrible sins caused by good motivations...Good goals do not justify undue means to attain them...), when he decided to provided something "TANGIGLE" for their RELIGION, instead of just believing and following in the WORDS provided by MOSES (without the need of gold plates), the greatest prophet, who also could be dead... Who could know, without proper revelation, on time? Thus, it was because of good reasons, as if to avoid that the TABERNACLE could fall to the ground, that some "HELP" was provided, even without explicit revelation and even if going against clear previous revelation. Thus AARON, even being so important person in the RELIGION, decided to provide something TANGIBLE, that people could take pictures, make movies, grab, have suvenirs, etc. SAVELLI's have the greatest Catholic Religious Shop, with suvenirs, in Vatican, Rome...

Best personal regards, sincerelyt yours, from a LAMANITE LDS, Indian descendant from the GUARANY (TUPY) indians of South America. We don't have cult or provide value to IDOLS, even of gold and if put anywhere. AARON's teaching was enough: we should get rid of gold idols, even if fruit of our intellectual reasoning and imagination.

SAVELLI

SAVELLI · August 12, 2011

He doesn't answer questions. He just cuts and pastes.
He didn't answer the same questions when I asked them and debunked him two weeks ago.
Dan Vogel - it's good to see you posting on this topic!

Dear Sir.

Very few persons know about the SABELLIANS in the Anglo Saxon civilization. Only the very Wises and Learned person in Antiquities know about something.

SABELLIAN LANGUAGE has nothing to do with the LATIN LANGUAGE, which replaced and exterminated the Sabellian language some 5 centuries before Christ because of a POLITICAL DECISION taken in ROME, not yet an EMPIRE. It was to HIDE the origini of the ITALIANS (ROMANS, SABELLIANS) as being from SLAVES in GREECE, and that had lived in LEBANON (Phoenicia) also as slaves and from there they were sold to Greece: see Joel 3:6 in BIBLE.

The political problem were the Phoenicians colonies in Italy and Mediterranean and mainly in CARTHAGE, that was becoming larger and larger and very powerful. It would be reason for GREAT MOCKERY the Phoenicians and CARTHAGINS say ROMANS were sons of SLAVERY, from their HANDS... Thus all past linking ROMANS and ITALIANS to Greece and mainly to PHOENICIANS had to be destroyed. And one link was the language SABELLI, that was a blend of GREEK, PHOENICIAN (both are the REFGRMED EGYPTIAN) and HEBREW (with its grammar and rule, and writting from right to left, opposite to the Greek/Phoenician). Sabelli characters are not Greek...

In the transition, all things written in SABELLI were destroyed.... except those underground, in TOMBS they couldn't locate or remember where they were... The first of such TOMBS was discovered and DISCLOSED in 1840 and it demonstrated that the CHARACTERS of SABELLI language were exactly the SAME the characters of the NEPHITIC LANGUAGE, the one Joseph Smith made copy from GOLD PLATES of Book of Mormon and sent to the USA scientist Anthon to examine: the ANTHON's CARACTORS and they survived and are in Internet, even in LDS sites. And better, the not translated words of the Book of Mormon were exactly the same words of the SABELLIAN language and thus we could know what was the meaning of the MISSING TRANSLATION WORDS of Book of Mormon and how to write in Nephitic language=Sabelli language.

From the CLASSIC ENCICLOPEDIA, printed in PORTUGAL, in 1935, in 4 volumes, in the town of PORTO, in the page 953:

SABELLICO or sabelico, comes from the Latin: sabellicus.

It is said of the Indo-European languages of Ancient=old Italy (excluding the Latin, the osco, and the umbrico) and its alphabet (NOTE OF TRANSLATOR: "IT IS EXACTLY EQUAL TO THE ALPHABET JOSEPH SMITH PROVIDED IN THE DOCUMENT "caractors" HE COPIED FROM GOLD PLATES AND SENT TO ANTHON, USA scientist), that nowadays is only known because of the two monuments.

The SABELLOS were the name of their LANGUAGE (SABELLICO, SABELLICUS) and the name of their BROAD PEOPLE, a kind of "HEAD-TRIBE", that included so many sub-tribes, as the SABINES (quite Jewish, it is SAB I NE S, humble SABaoth=Jehovah God Man), LUCANES (should it remember one Gospel's name?), PICENTINES (remember FISH), OSCO (remembers something quite rough as in "t'osco"), UMBROS, SAMNITES = SAM ITES = descendents of SAM (as SAMUel): quite jewish and it is clear, even in LDS literature, that Pontious Pilates was a SAMNITE, thus a CRYPT ISRAELITE. Thus Jesus was comdemned by the Hidden 10 tribes, by ITALIA.

ITALIA = ITA LIAH = DESCENDENTS OF (ITA) + LIAH = JACOB'S WIFE = ISRAEL'S WIFE

ITALIA = LAND OF ISRAEL = LAND FOR ISRAELITES = LAND FOR 10 TRIBES (CRYPT ONES), LAND FOR liah AND liahONA...

Remember that the TALE or account or LEGEND for the foundation (settlement) of the town of ROME is telleing about the ORIGIN of the SABELLIANS in ITALY: they came run away from GREECE, the land of JOEL 3:6. See from where they were SLAVES and from where they stole the SHIPS with quite few ISRAELITE WOMEN? GREECE!

Thank your for your questions. I beg your pardon for the delay in answering them.

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

Edited August 14, 2011 by Minos
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