1921 Book Of Mormon Geography Hearings

[Joseph Antley]

While reading Elder Talmage's personal journals as part of a separate research project, I came across the following few entries he had written in 1921. The "Book of Mormon committee" he references is a Church committee established in 1919 for the purpose of preparing a new edition of the Book of Mormon, which at the time of these "hearings" had just been completed (right before the first "hearing," Elder Talmage received the first shipment of the new "Missionary Edition" of the Book of Mormon).

Jan. 14, Fri.: In addition to other committee work I attended an afternoon session of the Book of Mormon committee, at which preliminary arrangements were made for hearing some of the proponents of different views on Book of Mormon geography. Many varied and conflicting views concerning the location of Book of Mormon lands have been advocated amongst our people; and not a few maps have been put out. With all precautions taken to make plain the fact that these maps have been intended as suggestive presentations only, we find some people accepting one map and others another as authoritative. The matter was brought before the council through the receipt of a communication from Elder Joel Ricks of Logan, who several years ago published a map, of which over 6000 have been disposed of. Brother Ricks and several other good brethren have voiced a sort of complaint that they have had no opportunity to present their views, with the fullness they desire, before the Church authorities. The entire matter was referred to the Book of Mormon committee; and today appointments were made for the beginning of the series of hearings.

Jan. 21, Fri.: Sat with the rest of the Book of Mormon committee in the first session appointed for the hearing of those who have views to present on the subject of Book of Mormon geography. The entire afternoon was occupied by Brother Joel Ricks of Logan, who exhibited a copy of his map, and gave many details of his personal travels and investigations in the northern part of South America and in part of Central America.

Jan. 22, Sat.: The Book of Mormon committee sat during both forenoon and afternoon. Elder Joel Ricks occupied part of the morning session, and the rest of that meeting, together with the whole of the afternoon session was given over to Elder Willard Young, who claims that most of the Book of Mormon scenes were laid in Guatemala, and Honduras.

Jan. 23, Sunday: […] I had looked forward to this opportunity of attending Sunday School in my own ward for once; but this was made impossible by action taken at last night’s meeting of the Book of Mormon committee this forenoon. This morning Elder Willard Young continued his presentation. […]

Jan. 24, Mon.: We were engaged from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. in Book of Mormon hearing, with a noon intermission. Elder Anthony W. Ivins of the Council of the Twelve presented his views and suggestions, indicating that the Book of Mormon lands embraced mainly Yucatan and Mexico. There being none others who had expressed a desire to be heard by the committee, this meeting was regarded as the closing session of the present stage of the investigation.

I found it interesting that none of the proposed models, including that of Elder Anthony W. Ivins, was based in the present United States.

(For those interested, I have these and other excerpts from Elder Talmage's journals that I found interesting available on my blog, and I'm sure I'll be adding more.)

[cinepro]

How are you reading the journals? Are they available to anyone, or do you need special permission?

Also, I've heard it claimed the Elder Talmage had some habits that our modern understanding of the Word of Wisdom would argue against. Have you found entries about such things?

Edited July 13, 2011 by cinepro

[mapman]

Cool, thanks for that.

[thesometimesaint]

Cool.

[LeSellers]

I've heard it claimed the Elder Talmage had some habits that our modern understanding of the Word of Wisdom would argue against. Have you found entries about such things?

I don't know about Elder Talmadge, but there was something called "the Word of Widstoe".

Lehi

[Joseph Antley]

How are you reading the journals? Are they available to anyone, or do you need special permission?

The journals are in the possession of BYU's Special Collections. I don't think they're publicly available. But word on the street is that Signature Books is planning on publishing his entire journals by 2015.

Also, I've heard it claimed the Elder Talmage had some habits that our modern understanding of the Word of Wisdom would argue against. Have you found entries about such things?

I had heard that too and have been keeping an eye out for it but so far haven't found anything. But I've only read his journals from about the years 1914-1921. He may just be something he just doesn't mention in his journals, or it may be in a year I haven't gotten to yet.

[Joseph Antley]

As someone mentioned it on my blog, here is another geography-relevant entry by Talmage in his journals, dated August 11, 1920:

Aug. 11, Wed.: President McCune and I went early to the Grove. Later we were conveyed by auto to the Hill Cumorah by Brother Bean. We climbed the hill and traversed it back and fore and examined it with interest and care. It is the largest of the many glacial drumlins of the locality, and is the most prominent of all the elevations in the neighborhood. Aside from the fact that the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken from the hill, I was greatly interested in looking from its summit over the surrounding region and in contemplating the tremendous battle-scenes of the past, whereby first the Jaredites and later the Nephites were exterminated as nations. I believe the Book of Mormon account without reservation or modification. I believe, also, and express it as my personal conviction, that many ancient records, possibly those from which Mormon made his abridgment, are still concealed in that hill. I believe also that they will be brought forth in the Lord’s due time, and that until that time no man will succeed in finding them. [...]

[Joseph Antley]

The journals are in the possession of BYU's Special Collections. I don't think they're publicly available. But word on the street is that Signature Books is planning on publishing his entire journals by 2015.

I looked and I believe there are microfilm copies of the journals that are publicly available at the HBLL, and some of the later journals are available online via the library's website.

[SAVELLI]

As someone mentioned it on my blog, here is another geography-relevant entry by Talmage in his journals, dated August 11, 1920:

.

There is a BIG PROBLEM in trying to understand the BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY. That is related to the LANGUAGE. Not all the NEPHITIC words were translated (some are exactly as they are written on PLATES, even backwards...) and because in some cases the TRANSLATION is only PHONETICAL (based on sound, not on the MEANING of the word...) and also because of the clear effort to KEEP SECRET the origin of the language being translated. Exactly to keep hidden also the GEOGRAPHY behind the text in English. English that nowadays requires some REVAMP to become "modern English", OR it will become like the LITURGICAL "LATIN" literature in use by Catholics up to recently. Few could understand what was written/spoken and the meaning of the texts, in a kind of "gheto literature". Jesus used "current/common language".

I guess I made HUGE PROGESS in understanding the BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY, because my IMPROVEMENTS in understanding the NEPHI's language, that I discovered is also the SABELLI's language of my ancestors of some 2,500 to 3,000 years ago. They are in fact the SAME LANGUAGE, and one idea is that somebody went to Jerusalem (or to Egypt) to teach them such "secret language" or, what appears to be a better theory, that the NEPHITES originated from ITALY and before from GREECE (as it is clear in JOEL 3:6).

You should read my other articles posted in the FORUM about the GOLD PLATES texts (in Nephitic) ad their translation to modern English by Joseph Smith. Something we can do now, ourselves, because the DOCUMENT KNOWN as "ANTHON's CARACTORS" (a copy of characters from Gold Plates to such document, made by Joseph Smith) is now TRANSLATED by me to our MODERN CHARACTERS. Thus it is quite easy (could be made automatic, as with OCR process) and fast to translated NEPHI's texts to modern texts and vice-versa. See on that in:

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS, Forum: Gold Plates Seminar--Byu posted by SAVELLI.

Knowing the language, and the fact that sometimes only one part of the word was translated (and the other kept as it is, in Nephitic language) or that the translation was only phonetically and means nothing. But if you PAY ATTENTION, you get the "CLUE" about the correct full translation up to modernity, and then you can discover the CORRECT GEOGRAPHY that is related to the historical event. Then you can LOCAPE PRECISELY where the event took place and/or what route was followed, etc. And you can even go to the place and inspect for some remains. As the suspended bridge over the Sidon River or the EXACT place where HAGOTH built the huge cargo sail ships, or WHAT is the correct meaning of the word CUMORAH (which was not translated.... and many more). What about the exact location of RIPLAH HILL and RIPLIANCUM and what are the correct meanings behind such names? It appears, knowing about SOME of the NEPHITIC language and writing and TRANSLATION, that there is a very so huge, very immense one, GEOGRAPHIC LANDMARC of a very important NEPHI's civilization, not far away from CUMORAH. People could WALK from CUMORAH to there... They can't do that because of the IGNORANCE about the MEANING of the WORDS in NEPHITIC and thus on how to TRANSLATE the words in Nephitic, in Book of Mormon, to English...

Think on the word SHAZER. It is only a PHONETIC TRANSLATION. Nothing was translated from the original NEPHITIC language meaning. SHAZER means NOTHING in the English language before Joseph Smith's invention of such word. Thus it is quite difficult to understand Geography with such type of language barrier. In fact SHAZER, when correctly translated, is CHASER, which is CHASE + R, and as it is in Nephitic language = Sabellich language, they are read from right to left (as in Hebrew, not as if Greek or Phoenician or LATIN), thus it is CHASE="hunt" + R=verb=order to hunt. Thus CHASER is to become full HUNTER, living from HUNTED animals. It is also from Hebrew, as it is clear in the name CHASE BANK, of New York, of Jews, that is the BANK for "CHASING=hunting clients, be fed of them, get their money). Could be "CHASER" Bank. We have in FRENCH language, which is quite like a descendent from SABELLI's language: to "Live from Hunted animals" is to be a "ChaSSeur, chasseur". The double S is a corruption from the original Sabelli's language and U was added for phonetic reasons (corruption). Thus CHASSEUR in fact is just ChaSeR, CHASER ..... Not SHAZER = "S"ha"Z"er = ShaZer... Thus, from the point CHASER and going on in the travel, they were to BE FED only with FOOD from HUNTED ANIMALS. No more FOOD from Jerusalem. Examine and think:

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS, Forum: Gold Plates Seminar--Byu posted by SAVELLI. If you know SABELLI's=Nephitic's you will UPGRADE the Book of Mormon and make the Book of Mormon Geography quite very easy and simple. And then you will discover so hugest "LANDMARK" for the Book of Mormon Geography in USA, besides CUMORAH, which means:

learn Nephitic (?). Not literally…

[David T]

It is also from Hebrew, as it is clear in the name CHASE BANK, of New York, of Jews, that is the BANK for "CHASING=hunting clients, be fed of them, get their money).

ummm...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

ummm...

Yeah.

All I will say is that I appreciate his thoughts.

[SAVELLI]

Using NEPHITIC LANGUAGE (words, phrases) to locate BOOK OF MORMON Geography.

There is one possibility that NEPHITES originated from ITALY (ITA-LIAh). I got one information of a group of them (they are from Sabelli's people and language) moved to the North of Italy, near nowadays MILAN (Milano) town, maybe some MORE in the direction of Venice (?). And there they made contact and a "JOIN SOCIETY" with the Celts (becoming like FLEA on a dog...) and started some RIOTS through Europe. I used from usual to enlarged topographic maps in following their route, through finding names in SABELLI's language ( = NEPHI's language), as if when you have a candle which is dropping some hot paraphin...

In one route, they went to a coast of France, to cross the Great Channel to Great Britain. They stopped at the middle isle of DIEU (DYEU) or ADIEU. In fact it is in the Book of Mormon and it is not a MODERN FRENCH NAME, as many think... It is previous to the ROMAN EMPIRE conquests and previous to LATIN, which is not the continuation of Sabelli's language (!!!)... It is from the SABELLI's + CELTS time of conquering Great Britain.

ADIEU or DIEU is a great evidence that the NEPHITES language = SABELLI's language, is originated from GREECE (but distinct), where in Greek it means something distinct of our "TO OUR GOD": maybe better to a mythological "goddess" of waters...

Celts and NEPHITES were expelled by barbarians out of England and got refuge in IRELAND, in NORTHERN IRELAND, in a region named NEPHIN = NEPH + IN, which is limited by the 4 tallest mountain peaks of Ireland... NEPHIN = NEPH + IN is "in = the place to live" (as in many hotels' names) + NEPH. Thus it is the LAND FOR NEPHITES. NEPHI is just NEPH + I = male descendents of NEPH. There it is yet used a dialect of NEPHITIC with CELTIC and with ENGLISH. It is very funny to see how they mix the 3 languages to compose a word or in phrases (maps can be provided). Their poetry is known as being CLEARLY OLD HEBREW poetry regrowth.

The other group moved toward the EGYPT and they penetrated into EGYPT through NILE RIVER and at one margin of such RIVER it was found

NEFICH = NEFI + CH = NEF + I + CH town (used to build a huge navvigation/irrigation channel, 2600 years ago).

CH=property of. Thus the TOWN was PROPERTY OF NEPHITES, nephitic town. Such town is yet ALIVE, even after 2,600 years and only the name changed a little, to become ARAB language. Now it is easy to find according modern Arab maps. And it became now only a neighborhood of a very large town of Egypt, named for one person who was so great friend of NEPHI (NEFI in nefitic language, not NePHi which is "modern" language, English). And large lands were given by the PHARAOH KING to the NEFITES, as it is clearly limited and written on old maps. But it is not in Hebrew...

Using such procedure, it is possible to follow specific Geographic important places and the followed route. Just looking at Nephitic's words along the route. It appears it conducted us to the BOARDING POINT of the 2 sail ships to NORTH AMERICA, because such boarding place, among thousands miles or ARABS around it, had quite so NEFITIC names. The main one remembers us the word MOSIAH and after 2,600 years it is possible to read clearly MOSIAH through the "corrupted name" that survived to us.

Best personal regards, SAVELLI

In past I was one of the owners and technical director of a big Brazilian Technical Mapping company, for high precision maps: as for big engineering design...

[BOMG]

While reading Elder Talmage's personal journals as part of a separate research project, I came across the following few entries he had written in 1921. The "Book of Mormon committee" he references is a Church committee established in 1919 for the purpose of preparing a new edition of the Book of Mormon, which at the time of these "hearings" had just been completed (right before the first "hearing," Elder Talmage received the first shipment of the new "Missionary Edition" of the Book of Mormon).

I found it interesting that none of the proposed models, including that of Elder Anthony W. Ivins, was based in the present United States.

Very interesting indeed as Talmage believed that the final Nephite battle took place in Palmyra.

http://bookofmormongeography.org/james-talmage

[volgadon]

Yeah.

All I will say is that I appreciate his thoughts.

I would like to quote my co-worker. "Don't think, it hurts your head."

[BOMG]

jibberish SAVELLI

The rantings of the cursed, I guarantee he is not a true believer in the BoM.

[Calm]

Using NEPHITIC LANGUAGE (words, phrases) to locate .....

In past I was one of the owners and technical director of a big Brazilian Technical Mapping company, for high precision maps: as for big engineering design...

Savelli, you will find that more will read your posts if you avoid the capitalization and other fancy text. It does not make it easier to read, but harder....plus it will save you lots of time and effort.

Instead write as you did in your last line, write it as if you were writing something you were turning in for a grade in an English class rather than as if it was a note you were planning on passing around during an English class.

I have no comment on the actual content of your post because I literally cannot read it, my eyes keep jumping around to all the enlarged text and I cannot focus on what is actually being said.

Thank you.

Edited July 13, 2011 by calmoriah

[bjw]

Savelli, you will find that more will read your posts if you avoid the capitalization and other fancy text. It does not make it easier to read, but harder....plus it will save you lots of time and effort.

Instead write as you did in your last line, write it as if you were writing something you were turning in for a grade in an English class rather than as if it was a note you were planning on passing around during an English class.

I have no comment on the actual content of your post because I literally cannot read it, my eyes keep jumping around to all the enlarged text and I cannot focus on what is actually being said.

Thank you.

I'm getting the feeling from reading his posts that he may be translating his posts into English from his native language. I just wish he had a blog or website where we could learn more about the methods he's using. I think some of the meaning is being lost in translation.

This sentence:

The main one remembers us the word MOSIAH and after 2,600 years it is possible to read clearly MOSIAH through the "corrupted name" that survived to us.

This sounds like his translator is messing up some of the words, like it should be "reminds us of the word" instead of "remembers us the word." I think that may be part of the problem.

[Calm]

I'm getting the feeling from reading his posts that he may be translating his posts into English from his native language. I just wish he had a blog or website where we could learn more about the methods he's using. I think some of the meaning is being lost in translation.

This sentence:

The main one remembers us the word MOSIAH and after 2,600 years it is possible to read clearly MOSIAH through the "corrupted name" that survived to us.

This sounds like his translator is messing up some of the words, like it should be "reminds us of the word" instead of "remembers us the word." I think that may be part of the problem.

If so, then he really needs to remove the extra text embellishments as the combination renders his work pretty much useless for his purpose from what people have commented here and in the other thread. Readers are usually quite interested in the point of view of nonnative English speakers from what I've seen (as opposed to what he has done with punctuation painting (my label for those who use punctuation not according to the typical rules, but as if they were attempting to literally create a picture with their 'decorations').

add-on: looks like he's from Brazil: http://lofi.forum.ph...avity_7436.html

In one of his posts elsewhere, he had several listed webpages, this is the only one still active but it is not on this topic: http://celsosavelli....br/98elohim.htm

Here is a post on another subject, he talks about himself right at the end a bit. http://groups.yahoo....el/message/3466

If you do a search on "LDS" and "savelli" there are a number of links you can explore dealing with his various ideas and telling some personal info.

Edited July 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[bjw]

If so, then he really needs to remove the extra text embellishments as the combination renders his work pretty much useless for his purpose from what people have commented here and in the other thread. Readers are usually quite interested in the point of view of nonnative English speakers from what I've seen (as opposed to what he has done with punctuation painting (my label for those who use punctuation not according to the typical rules, but as if they were attempting to literally create a picture with their 'decorations').

add-on: looks like he's from Brazil: http://lofi.forum.ph...avity_7436.html

In one of his posts elsewhere, he had several listed webpages, this is the only one still active but it is not on this topic: http://celsosavelli....br/98elohim.htm

Here is a post on another subject, he talks about himself right at the end a bit. http://groups.yahoo....el/message/3466

If you do a search on "LDS" and "savelli" there are a number of links you can explore dealing with his various ideas and telling some personal info.

Thanks for the links and info. It seems pretty technical and hard to grasp. I'd like to read up on some more of his topics though.

[Calm]

Thanks for the links and info. It seems pretty technical and hard to grasp. I'd like to read up on some more of his topics though.

Honestly, from what little I was able to read (some of the forums allowed less 'clutter' in their posts, it seems more like free association/stream of thought ideas or possibly rampant 'parallelism' than a scientific thought process, but perhaps I missed something.

[Minos]

Using NEPHITIC LANGUAGE (words, phrases) to locate BOOK OF MORMON Geography.

There is one possibility that NEPHITES originated from ITALY (ITA-LIAh). I got one information of a group of them (they are from Sabelli's people and language) moved to the North of Italy, near nowadays MILAN (Milano) town, maybe some MORE in the direction of Venice (?). And there they made contact and a "JOIN SOCIETY" with the Celts (becoming like FLEA on a dog...) and started some RIOTS through Europe. I used from usual to enlarged topographic maps in following their route, through finding names in SABELLI's language ( = NEPHI's language), as if when you have a candle which is dropping some hot paraphin...

In one route, they went to a coast of France, to cross the Great Channel to Great Britain. They stopped at the middle isle of DIEU (DYEU) or ADIEU. In fact it is in the Book of Mormon and it is not a MODERN FRENCH NAME, as many think... It is previous to the ROMAN EMPIRE conquests and previous to LATIN, which is not the continuation of Sabelli's language (!!!)... It is from the SABELLI's + CELTS time of conquering Great Britain.

ADIEU or DIEU is a great evidence that the NEPHITES language = SABELLI's language, is originated from GREECE (but distinct), where in Greek it means something distinct of our "TO OUR GOD": maybe better to a mythological "goddess" of waters...

Celts and NEPHITES were expelled by barbarians out of England and got refuge in IRELAND, in NORTHERN IRELAND, in a region named NEPHIN = NEPH + IN, which is limited by the 4 tallest mountain peaks of Ireland... NEPHIN = NEPH + IN is "in = the place to live" (as in many hotels' names) + NEPH. Thus it is the LAND FOR NEPHITES. NEPHI is just NEPH + I = male descendents of NEPH. There it is yet used a dialect of NEPHITIC with CELTIC and with ENGLISH. It is very funny to see how they mix the 3 languages to compose a word or in phrases (maps can be provided). Their poetry is known as being CLEARLY OLD HEBREW poetry regrowth.

The other group moved toward the EGYPT and they penetrated into EGYPT through NILE RIVER and at one margin of such RIVER it was found

NEFICH = NEFI + CH = NEF + I + CH town (used to build a huge navvigation/irrigation channel, 2600 years ago).

CH=property of. Thus the TOWN was PROPERTY OF NEPHITES, nephitic town. Such town is yet ALIVE, even after 2,600 years and only the name changed a little, to become ARAB language. Now it is easy to find according modern Arab maps. And it became now only a neighborhood of a very large town of Egypt, named for one person who was so great friend of NEPHI (NEFI in nefitic language, not NePHi which is "modern" language, English). And large lands were given by the PHARAOH KING to the NEFITES, as it is clearly limited and written on old maps. But it is not in Hebrew...

Using such procedure, it is possible to follow specific Geographic important places and the followed route. Just looking at Nephitic's words along the route. It appears it conducted us to the BOARDING POINT of the 2 sail ships to NORTH AMERICA, because such boarding place, among thousands miles or ARABS around it, had quite so NEFITIC names. The main one remembers us the word MOSIAH and after 2,600 years it is possible to read clearly MOSIAH through the "corrupted name" that survived to us.

Best personal regards, SAVELLI

In past I was one of the owners and technical director of a big Brazilian Technical Mapping company, for high precision maps: as for big engineering design...

Please do not use screaming capital letters, bold letters or underlining in this forum. It is considered rude. Your posts must be easy to read and they need to make sense to English speakers. Please work on that.

[Calm]

Thanks for the links and info. It seems pretty technical and hard to grasp. I'd like to read up on some more of his topics though.

Here is a link to the area in Ireland he is speaking of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephin

Found this better written post about "Nephich"" http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/10785

[BOMG]

Save your breath, here is a taste of his fruit:

JAREDITES landed in NEW YOR

K, in LONG ISLAND ("sancturary of liberty").

LEHI (and thus NEPHITES) DID EXACTLY THE SAME and also their penetration toward GREAT LAKES was through same river, now part of the channel coming from WEST SEA (LAKE ERIE) to PALMYRA (Hill CUMORAH, the only one existing) and to N.YORK (HARBOR).

MULEKITES ARRIVED IN NORTH AMERICA, AT THE END OF RIVER SAINT LAWRENCE, where it discharges into NORTH ATLANTIC.

The dashed line is wrong (for Mulekites): they travelled further to the discharge of River Saint Lawrence into North Atlantic. The lower thick pink line, number 2, is the travel route of NEPHITES (LEHI's). The upper thick pink line, number 1, is the travel route of JAREDITES. The middle dashed line, number 3, is the WRONG route for MULEKITES+ARABS: they landed northern, at the discharge of River Saint Lawerence.

You can see JAREDITES and NEPHITES penetrated through HUDSON RIVER and in one lower shoulder valley, where nowadays is passing the big navigation channel coming from EAST SEA (LAKE ERIE) is the route (to the left) they followed to reach HILL CUMORAH (nowadays PALMYRA) and thus reach EAST SEA (LAKE ONTARIO) and then the SHOULDERS of the MULEKITES' land (ZARAEMLA south limit, being the RIVER SIDON, here called NIAGARA RIVER) and the NEPHITES bordfered NIAGARA RIVER and went to WEST, to WEST SEA, to LAKE ERIE.

Then they travelled all around Lake Erie, reaching its WEST extremity, and the place for the town of

MANTI (where it is nowadays DETROIT town

) and followed SIDON RIVER (toward Nort, River Detroit) and reached LAKE HURON and continued further northern, up to the point the LAKE HURON makes a turn to the LEFT and starts to exist with the name of LAKE MICHIGAN. Than the moved SOUTH and reached the SPRING (the START, the heads, the fountains) of RIVER SIDON ("LENTHIC"), which is the town of CHICAGO. From CHICAGO, which is the fountains (start, springs) of River ILLINOIS, they moved South (and past the place JosePH Smith Jr. identified the skeleton of ZELPH, the last WHITE=NEPHITE warrior, politically converted to LAMANITISM (as Jews, NEW CHRISTIANS, did in Europe, becoming Christians by force of circunstances). Such skeleton of a NEPHITE (white) was far from headquarters of last Nephites (HILL CUMORAH): he was moving down the river, to the MISSISSIPPI RIVER, as did SAINTS to NAUVOO, to reach NEW ORLEANS. Then some SAILED TO CUBA and TO BRAZIL. Then the MOST SAILED to GUATEMALA and NEARBY. Some others WALKED to MEXICO and some moved up, to NEW MEXICO (where a great stone, cut vertically, is full of nephitic WORDS and phrases,easy to read, as they are in OSCO, the language of SABELLI, for 600 B.C.: it is not Hebrew).

THE ISTHMUS of MEXICO to PANAMA was inhabited by CURSED JAREDITES,

that separed from the GOOD (and extinct) JAREDITES. Thus former NEPHITES and LAMANITES had to be ABSORBED by them and by the CULTURE and religion of such EVIL JAREDITES. But some ex-NEPHITES and LAMANITES crossed the ISTHMUS and SAILED toward SOUTH AMERICA. Some former Nephites crossed INKA's kingdoms (in PERU and Bolivia) and moved to live in PARAGUAY, BRAZIL, URUGUAY and ARGENTINA. A TRUE PYRAMIDE (with well cut rocks) was found recently in Brazil, between the towns of SAO PAULO and RIO DE JANEIRO. Do you want to see pictures?

SAVELLI

I wrote this document. celso savelli gomes

[CELSOSAVELLI,

08-20-06]

Another darkened mind has ridden the waves of bizarre.

Edited July 14, 2011 by BOMG

[Pahoran]

The rantings of the cursed, I guarantee he is not a true believer in the BoM.

Umm, the "cursed?" Sabelli's ideas may be rather unusual, but why should he or she be cursed for that?

To be called a believer in the Book of Mormon, it is not (IMHO) necessary to espouse any particular hermeneutic, especially as relates to essentially peripheral matters like geography. All that is necessary is that a person reads it, makes a good-faith effort to understand what she finds therein, and accepts as true whatever she understands it to mean.

I am a Book of Mormon believer. Meldrum and his followers are Book of Mormon believers (although whether they would return the compliment is an open question.) The fellow (I've forgotten his name) who thought the Book of Mormon events happened in Uganda is a Book of Mormon believer (or at least he was at the time.) Those who think Mormon's Map best fits the Malay Peninsula are Book of Mormon believers. A dwindling, but still surviving, minority of Reorganites, mostly around the fringes of the CofC, are still Book of Mormon believers.

I'm not entirely certain that it is within our purview to pronounce anyone "cursed."

Regards,

Pahoran

[SAVELLI]

I'm getting the feeling from reading his posts that he may be translating his posts into English from his native language. I just wish he had a blog or website where we could learn more about the methods he's using. I think some of the meaning is being lost in translation.

This sentence:

The main one remembers us the word MOSIAH and after 2,600 years it is possible to read clearly MOSIAH through the "corrupted name" that survived to us.

That is true. It was quite in the navigation route as followed by ancestors, traders Saberi = Sabelli originated (dispersed) from old Persia and its language some 2,700 (?) years ago. And they build a huge harbor in Indic sea that is yet working nice in modernity with same name... A high priest of Hinduism, very learned, gave me CLUES about the Saberi = Sabel= Savelli's exodus from Persia to India, where they are the Saberiah and where there. Thus it is possible they named MOSIAH to such Lehi's family board or it was just Lehi's family who gave the name (who would then know about?). I met the priest while I was providing technical consulting in Asia, so many years ago.

Thus it appeared that SABER = SABELLI people spread in exodus, for making trade, to India and China and even Japan, much before Christ. What about the word KIMono? The very expensive cloth from Japan. It appears it came from ONO=ONA=very expensive, very important, very... (superlatives) + KIM is a sabelli's word of Book of Mormon...

MOSIAH is the local name after removing the LITTLE corruption in local name. It is the Harbor place in Sabeli's "navigation route". If you reason as Hebrew name, then the match is perfect if the difference then is by excess, by one letter which turns it an "order" to do something: board and sail to America Continent?

This sounds like his translator is messing up some of the words, like it should be "reminds us of the word" instead of "remembers us the word." I think that may be part of the problem. The Google Translator provides just a rough translation, as stated in the text I provided.

There are some comments about I have been using too much unnecessary things, as if capital letters, underlining plenty of words, use bold letters in excessive abundance and other bad things. I hope to use shorter phrasers (thus revising the text to be more compact in presenting new information, as removing excess of details).

Because of these useful suggestions, below I am reproducing the last posted message, in some type of "revised condition". The idea is to obtain a feed back in relation to what improvements are required.

R e p r i n t e d message.

Does Savelli have a website or blog that discusses his method in more detail?

TRANSLATION OF NEPHI's LANGUAGE/TEXTS (as from Gold Plates) from ancient to MODERNITY and vice-versa.

Dear friends.

I think I may have 12 years of uploaded material in web sites. But quite a lot of earlier material was not yet uploaded, being handwritten or only typed.

I lost quite a lot of information with Geocities, from Yahoo, because they erased so many files and groups. A great disgrace. Some of them I knew such thing would take place; I saved in files, in my computer and in CD and DVDs. I also had a huge Yahoo Group, but some persons like from Inquisition intruded into it and it is useless now.

Some good part of information is with Jewish people, quite very open (even the orthodox brand) to receive LDS material, even about Joseph Smith and Nephi's language and translation, practical use of such method for Nephitic alike material translation they did. They handled such materials from one coast to the other coast of USA. Maybe I was lucky because of being so ancient Israelite family (from Joel's 3:6 days in Greece) and my son have a quite Jewish mother (already 22-23 years married with other man…) also she of so ancient Israelite family, from Babylon exile that refused to return to Israel to build Zorobabel's temple. They are the Kochake, Koch + Ake (would write as 2 blocks Ake + Koch) and great number of USA Jews are from the Koch's or from Ake=Ache's portion of the family name. That is common practice in Nephitic=Sabellich.

There are many hundreds of sites and groups piled up in these 12 to 13 years. Probably the most practical way is to use a Brazilian-Portuguese (it is a LDS site that I am the administrator, manager) group from Yahoo. Just join into it: it is like in English Yahoo Groups. The site/group is open for joining it.

http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/mormons_brasil/

After joining the group, you should go to the messages and you can click directly from here:

http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/mormons_brasil/messages

In the middle of such page, just below the title "messages" (written in green color), you have another line with two boxes to fill in.

The first left box is title "message" ... "OK". It is not our case.

The next box to the right is titled "buscar" (search, find) ... "OK".

You are to use this right box/rectangle for making the search.

If you type "caractors" (from Joseph Smith's characters, from Gold Plates, provided to the USA scientist named Anthon) and "ok", you get: in next line:

"mensagens encontrondas" (found messages): 1-10 of 48.

Let us see the first of the found messages. It is the message # 1700 and it has as title:

Escreva-leia em Nefitico-5 para SUDs. Terminamos traduçăo Nefitico de tumba Roma Click on the previous URL and you will "see":

Escreva-Leia em Nefítico-5 para SUDs. Terminamos tradução Nefitico de tumba Roma.

Espero que apreciem. Deu um belo trabalhão conforme já sabíamos mas terminei hoje bem rápido a parte final, pós Osco, e que utiliza a lista de caracteres Nefíticos (a lista para o Aanthon), como que uma coleção de FONTES diversas (até maiúsculas e minúsculas) que usamos para impressão e apresentação de palestras. não está salgamente perfeito, mas sou do povo em que até as melodias se podem cantar docemente...

Enfim, vejam lá e não exagerem nas críticas. Sou apenas um cientista especializado em meio ambiente, em RESÍDUOS, em merdas, em lixos, em biogas e outras coisas similares românticas e sonhadoras, como um mundo melhor e mais limpo...Não entendo nada de religião e seus mistérios. .

Wow! It is in Portuguese language! (It is quite alike Nephitic language, after 2,000 years of progress and corruption, simultaneously...). No problem. Use the Google tools for fast and easy (not so accurate) translation to English http://translate.google.com/ Click on this URL and enter into the Google Translator. It will have a rectangle (in left) for you paste the text in Portuguese...

Let us try it. And select Portuguese to English, for translation. The result comes quickly:

Write to Read Nephite-5 for LDS. Finished translation Nephites Tomb Rome.

I hope you enjoy. Work gave a beautiful, as we knew pretty fast today but I finished the final part, after Osco, and uses the list of characters Nephites (Anthon for a list) as a collection of diverse sources (up to case) that used for printing and presentation of lectures. It is not perfect but I'm up to the people that can sing the melodies are sweet ...

Anyway, look there and not go overboard in their criticism. I'm just a scientist specializing in the environment, waste, **** in garbage in biogas and other similar things romantic and dreamy, like a cleaner and better world ... I know nothing about religion and its mysteries...

Now you should return to the First Message you searched on list of “caractors” and examine other options. Or you can deeper examine the figures with the text already Google translated into English. Much better. "You can see that the translation is not perfect, but it provides a first a rough idea about the text.

Some figures will not open. Maybe because I created their file (in Yahoo storage area) with Internet Explorer and now I am using Mozila Firefox to read such stored file and a message like this will appear. Thus there is a conflict: We are sorry, you can not display images hosted by Yahoo! Groups on non Yahoo! Groups pages.

In that case try to open the Yahoo Group in the Internet Explorer.

First figure: (it will not generate the figure outside the Yahoo environment, with you signing in).

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19842954/hr/1571646374/name/nome+tumba+necropoli+orvieto+FIM+por+ANTHON+CARACTORS+AP%C3%93S+por+OSCO- SABINA+CARACTERES.jpg

Tomb in Orvieto, Italy, of some 2,500 years old, discovered in 1830, exactly when Book of Mormon became public and public knew about the Gold Plates... and about Tomb inscriptions.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/222d0098cc8329eac02bb265f4515c60042faeac6aa59ad8a01a0c0e9c51f2a35g.jpg

On top so may Tombs found in 1830 in Italy, some 130 km far from Rome, nearby Nep. Lower picture is of the entrance of one generic tomb, as they have the name of the deceased person (of 2,500 years ago) written = carved on the upper part of the entrance door of the tomb. We are to see these characters (in fact they are the "caractors" of Joseph Smith ! ! ! copied from Gold Plates at 1,700 years later). They will be seen much “enlarged” and we will translate them into modern characters (as used in USA, Italy, Brazil, etc.), as you can see next.

5th figure (in fact it was posted in other message...):

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/88dabbca9cf702b886e3bcd95a913ca48b641763dfb3d41236e61269f57c09bb6g.jpg

You can see that above the original inscription, carved on stone, at tomb door entrance, is the translation made using nephitic language. Thus using the Anthon's caractors prepared by Joseph Smith's hands from copying the gold plates. The characters = caractors fit perfectly. Also the names used in “ancient Sabelli’s language” (please don't mix up with etruscan: it is like to think Brazilian language is a mixture of Spanish, Portuguese, Indians dialects, Phoenicians, etc.).

You can see that below the original inscription, carved on stone, is the translation made using Sabelli’s characters as in their several dialects, from different Geographic positions and from distinct time (period of times, ages). You can see from 2nd (second) figure of Yahoo Group, that almost all the characters we can see carved on stone, are related to the 5th century before Christ and such characters are related to Rome’s people.

The Sabine language is older than Nephitic language (just compare characters...) and it is related to the early settlements in ROME (see 2md figure, second column with characters from right to left: it is Sabine, which is a sub-tribe from the Sabelli's people and language.

Thus Sabine is a "branch" of Sabelli. As Nephites are just a branch of Sabelli’s (latter on) also... And then the first column in the right is the one that fits better to the name carved on Rock. You can see it is Sabina Tiberina and Adriatica, thus Roman Sabin also. Thus name of deceased man, carved on rock, is in Roman dialect (from Rome’s region). And they fit perfectly with the Book of Mormon method of translation of characters using the Anthon's “caractor” as if "the rosetta Stone" from Champolion. See Figure 4th en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

My translated Anthon's “caractors” is not the most updated general version general uploaded in web: for so many years it was made. Probably more reliable one is found in Jewish sites. Also it was possible to obtain a great deal of objects, from Jewish origin, of the age of Christ and before and little latter, written/carved in Sabellian language (Nephitic alike, corrupted).

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

Savelli from Sabelli’s people, language and caractors.