1921 Book Of Mormon Geography Hearings

[SAVELLI]

But he is posting a map of the great lakes with names like "Sidon" and Detroit= Manti. That sounds an awful bit like he is suggesting a Great Lakes setting for the BoM. I have not seen him mention really anything about Mesoamerica in any of his posts. Perhaps I missed it. Do you have a reference for it?

Dear Friends.

Our conclusions and suggestions are not "definitive", as if "frozen for ever". In fact, as we learn, get greater truth; we must revise our previous conclusions and reasoning.

This means that my "preliminary uploads" on some subject are only "preliminary". They probably will have "changes", as to recognize they were "wrong", up to the opposite. Those ideas could go ahead. And we must reason that new information becomes available, and that we may reason more properly about them. Thus other propositions may come, as if to replace or upgrade already posted information. It is never "definitive". Even the work of scientists is not leading to the definitive conclusions and models. We are subject to the "progress, to improvements". Thus it is quite wrong to consider my posted materials, some of 13 years ago, as being definitive to take "final decisions", as if the biblical final judgment evaluation of us and of our knowledge about something. As about some posted material.

My conclusion is that I used a "wrong word" or phrase in relation to the Jaredites. In fact the Jaredites became extinct in North America. My reasoning, for today, is that we never had "true Jaredites" in Meso or South America. Thus we had none "cursed Jaredites" in such part of America Continent. Thus I was wrong many years ago... I published on this, with other nicknames, in Jewish sites, with whom I have been working and publishing since 1999... Please, don't use "old uploaded information" without reasoning if such information remains useful. You should ask to the author who made the upload. Things progress or we would be in Inquisition Medieval Days of darkness.

What caused the change of old reasoning in relation to the "cursed Jaredites"? Good information that I obtained. In some 12 years ago I heard about a strange place, in the very middle of Amazon Forest (were I have big cattle farm), that could be "strange or impossible" if reasoned as Indian place (construction) and also none white people had entered into such virgin forest with dense and huge vegetation, tall trees, etc. They provided me pictures of such place. Thus I asked to open some kind of access road to there, through the forest. And arriving there, many years ago (it is posted in Internet, probably in Jewish sites of USA), I concluded that it was like 3 rock dams made with well cut and fit huge basalt rocks. As if they were pointing to one point. I did the excavation exactly there. And I unearthed a very big and well cut (with very complicated and variable 3-D geometry, as concordance of plane surface and curved geometrical surfaces). Probably it was an altar. And the faces were well polished and finished. A "crack" of rock decay indicated it would be in decomposition in the last some 3,000 years (according geologist from University) and

an "ideogram" of very good size, and very well done, was "carved" (some 1 cm) into the basalt rock vertical flat=plane surface, at the back of the "altar" (?). I had done consulting in Asia and I was in China and I already had posted some things about the Chinese language and ideograms. My preliminary conclusion was that it was written in some "Asiatic language ideogram", quite like being from ancient Chinese. It was composed like of 2 ideograms linked as one. One was quite easy to read, as meaning "men, mankind". And looking better, it is possible that Guatemala's and Mexico's old ideograms are just one evolution of the ideograms in my farm, but not in the way Chinese progressed... I took many pictures of the discovery, but it was prudent to have it covered by earth and maybe vegetation, again.

Thus, for sure, there was "no cursed and evil Jaredites". Even from the "core geography" of Book of Mormon, which is in North America continent (a general map will be provided...). But such kingdom of Nephites was really very huge: my nowadays conclusions and reasoning. I learned more things with the Jews, also...

The Nephitic language points that there was and is a lot of Nephites descendents in South America. “As me myself: also Indian descendent”... Just look at the words (their phonetics) and the way they can be written, properly done. For example, the greatest Brazilian "mountain range" (quite like Sierra Nevada, Rock Mountains for USA people), has a very interesting Sabelli's name (Nephi's): MANTIQUEIRA, a phonetic corruption of MANTI-CHIRAH, thus it is MANT + I + CHIR + AH and you should translate properly when making the writing (as should read from right to left): AH + CHIR + I + MANT

AH = possessive; it means somebody is the "owner", belongs to him;

CHIR is the name of such person (like the former French president, Jacques ChirAC; a corruption from CHIR + AH = CHIR + CH = ChirAC.).

MANT is like the royal cloth over other royal cloths; It is the CROWNING, the Royal MANTle (manT LE); and the I is to mean "male person".

---> Royal MANTle of (belongs to, as if the "crowning, covering all") Mr. CHIR = MANTIqueira mountain range = MANTIchirAH. The “crowning” (top elevation) of Chir’s royal family.

I never wasted my time in searching Sabelli's = Nephitich's names in Central America. The contamination with a very strong civilization (Asiatic originated?) is too strong and their writting was alike very Asiatic (based on corrupted Ideograms, but keeping that principle for graphic representation of the spoken dialogues, ideas, etc.).

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Dear Friends.

My conclusion is that I used a "wrong word" or phrase in relation to the Jaredites. In fact the Jaredites became extinct in North America. My reasoning, for today, is that we never had "true Jaredites" in Meso or South America. Thus we had none "cursed Jaredites" in such part of America Continent.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you using an application to translate your posts from Italian to English?

Edited July 14, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[SAVELLI]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you using an application to translate your posts from Italian to English?

Mainly the Google Translator and some dictionaries. But there are plenty of other good translators available in the web. I guess someday we will have some type of "translator" program to convert our modern characters (A, B, C, D, E... a, b, c, d...) into Nephitic's CARACTORs (in the "list" provided by Joseph Smith) and Sabelli's characters (of several dates and geographic position, "even for North America"). I have been doing that as a labor manual work, taking quite a lot of time... Also the same program, using some type of OCR (automatic detection of printed characters to convert them into "text" in computer format, as in "word" text) could convert the NEPHITIC text material (as the one carved on rock at the upper part of the door for entering the Tomb in Orvieto, Italy, of some 2,500 years) into such our "modern characters". Thus the translation of Nephitic to modern text would be very fast and vice-versa. And I attempt in making such type of program, but I don't have time and expertise for such. I am a University professor. 43 years of teaching classes.

Also if you convert the "image, CARACTORS" of Nephitic language into modern characters, you can use computer data base bank and easily make the translation, in the sense of obtaining the meaning in modern language. Quite like some "Google Translator" does. It could also be used for translating back, automatically, to Nephitic language and printing it. All automatic. As if the translation of Russian or Arab language (printed on a newspaper) to English language...

[BOMG]

I never wasted my time in searching Sabelli's = Nephitich's names in Central America. The contamination with a very strong civilization

Interesting, how do North American Indians compare? Like the Mulekites whose language became polluted, N. American Indians could not understand each others merely 60 miles away. The approach can't work.

Also if you convert the "image, CARACTORS" of Nephitic language into modern characters, you can use computer data base bank and easily make the translation

Did you use the work of Wade Brown? If so, how does your differ?

[Sevenbak]

That is why those geographical footnote references were removed from the 1920 and later editions.

During the time Ivins made his statements the brethren had not yet tapered back their arrogant claim that "all" Indians descended from BoM peoples and were still under the curse of the darkened mind which continues on most even now.

You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

[BOMG]

You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

"They will say all is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospereth all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to h*ll."

Edited July 15, 2011 by BOMG

[Sevenbak]

"They will say all is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospereth all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to h*ll."

Well, on that note, it's time for me to stop discussing this with you, as no apparent good can come of it.

[SAVELLI]

Interesting, how do North American Indians compare? Like the Mulekites whose language became polluted, N. American Indians could not understand each others merely 60 miles away. The approach can't work.

This is not true... Probably you are talking about Indians of different racial and cultural background.

I descend from the Tupy's Indians group of Brazil (sub-group Guarany, as the dominant one for Paraguay nation, quite "red-skin", because "GUARA-NY means GUARA = "red color" in Indian language and "NI = humble". Thus I am a "humble RED SKIN Indian descendent... thus "darkened skin" Nephite's descendent; nothing to do with Africans). A lot of people don't understand about "darkened skin" mentioned in Book of Mormon because they don't understand the Nephitic language and its translation...

What is important is that the Indian language, for same group, as for Tupy Indians of Brazil, is exactly the same, from North to South, from East to West of Brazil, even if the involved distances are over thousand quilometers!... Words with the "very same sound" and recorded, mainly by Jesuitic priests, with the same spelling and meaning. Wherever you have the sound "guara" you know it means "red color" and then together with "guara" comes glued what is "guara". That is the way Nephitic language works....

GuaraNA is the red fruit that is used to make a very much appreciated Brazilian soft drink. It is an energetic drink, with caffeine like ingredient named guaraine.

Guaramoka is the language of the Indians (red skin) in the border of Bolivia and Brazil, next to Paraguay River. To "moke" ("mocar") is to "hide very well" something... (Maybe far away).

GUARAl - one type of spider found in Lybia, Africa.

Guarajus -Brazilian Indians of its northern Amazon part (Guapore).

Plenty of rivers of Brazil have part of their names with "guara" (red waters): Guarahi (Rio de Janeiro), Guarauna, Guarau, Guaraguassu, etc.

Guara is the name of South America and Brazilian wild wolf: it is reddish fur (skin).

Guara are the reddish feather birds, of tall feet, like the Ibis birds from Egypt or flamingo (garça).

Guaracao is any red color ferocious dog.

Guaracha is the name of a Spanish culture dancing

Guarahu is the name of a mountain range in Brazil.

You are very wrong about your conclusions in relation to Indians. Your understanding about Indians is quite limited and biased. Indians names are very stable over centuries as none of the original names, since Brazilian discovery, changed even a little. Except in what the corruption was caused by white/negro culture intrusion and hybridizing... The problem with white people handling the Book of Mormon is that they reason as "white culture people", as in relation to the "darkened skin" ("guara"). From where does it come such color? Quite lot types of Indians have some evident Asiatic like influence, mainly in their faces (type of eyes) and skin colors. As those we hire (and marry) in our farms, in Amazon Forest region of Brazil. They are people like us and also have dreams toward progress. It is silly to thing they want to remain just like wild beasts, after they know about our civilization and what it offers. It is like us and we can see that in Hollywood movies: the ideal of having contact with some advanced civilization and becoming part of them and of their benefits. And then there are plenty of hypocrites saying the opposite. That our dream is to move back and return to live as Indians. I went to visit my "brothers" living in very natural stage of wild civilization, completely naked, etc. Hard suffering life! Not paradise! Paradise is only in Hollywood movies showing them in a false vision.

Mulekites were speaking a dialect that was mainly Arab language. This is why it was difficult for them speak with the Nephites speaking mainly Sabelli's lanaguage... not Hebrew. If you read the names provided for you (without bias), you will understand. Think about who build the ship and sailed it and where and how. ZarahEMLA is a typical ARAB name... as others - I found native Arab names in USA while searching for Sabelli's=Nephitic names... guess! (From a long time ago former Muslim religious person who had and has sites for Muslim people, not with Savelli as nickname... Who wrote a lot about the Koran sacred book for Muslims. My sister was married a Muslim man...).

With best personal regards, sincerely yours, Savelli

[BOMG]

This is not true... Probably you are talking about Indians of different racial and cultural background.

Hello??? In case you never heard, all Indians came across the Bering Straight, the DNA proves it, but their languages are different, because like the Mulekites, language can change so much that you can't understand your neighbors after a few hundred years:

their language

had become

corrupted

;

(Omni 1.17)

I descend from the Tupy's Indians group of Brazil (sub-group Guarany, as the dominant one for Paraguay nation, quite "red-skin", because "GUARA-NY means GUARA = "red color" in Indian language and "NI = humble". Thus I am a "humble RED SKIN Indian descendent... thus "darkened skin" Nephite's descendent;

Your egocentric approach has flawed your work like every other geography fanatic. There were no Nephites in Brazil and you're biasing your results by what happened to Indians where you are. Do you understand the Book of Mormon did not happen there?? Whoever told you that was wrong, no offense but Brazil has nothing to do with a. Book of Mormon history, b. Book of Mormon prophesy.

The problem with white people handling the Book of Mormon is that they reason as "white culture people" Savelli

Your egocentric approach blinds you, the entire Book of Mormon record was "sealed" and required "interpreters prepared by God" to translate, so no, you cannot phonetically translate Nephite records. Also, Nephite language and culture DID NOT CONTINUE. Their culture meaning their religious views, words they used, etc. were despised and erased, exterminated and wiped from the earth. Stop using your language, your lineage and your experience to create weird theories on the Holy Book of Mormon.

Let's make this easy, are you a follower of the Book of Mormon?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hello??? In case you never heard, all Indians came across the Bering Straight, the DNA proves it, but their languages are different, because like the Mulekites, language can change so much that you can't understand your neighbors after a few hundred years:

All Indians? You might want to revise that as that is not true.

[Joseph Antley]

All Indians? You might want to revise that as that is not true.

I thought most Indians were born in North America, to be honest.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I thought most Indians were born in North America, to be honest.

Lol, yeah, I suppose you have a point.

[SAVELLI]

You are ignoring established protocols. Do you even have an Internal Map? If so post it, then post a full physical map. Thanks!

Dear friends:

Let us start to provide a full physical map on how “huge” was Nephitic Empire. Can we provide some “clue” with some available information?

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg

Click on the URL and see the map very enlarged. We are to discuss about it just below the map presented in not so enlarged scale.

We are to compare the language used in Book of Mormon, related to the CARACTORS (list of characters, copied from Gold Plates, by Joseph Smith. They were provided to the Anthon scientist of USA). Such type of information is compared with similar one found in Italy. As in Orvieto's tombs, build some 2,500 years ago. And next we are to use the same type of comparison for similar ancient’s texts, found with similar characters, across the USA. Such comparisons are to provide some basis for evaluating how big Nephitic Empire was. And also it will provide data related to its degradation toward the final collapse condition and where it took place.

Thus we are to compare the same basic (quite uncorrupted) language, of both such above type of "characters", with some USA American Indians, from well known sources, at the points 8 and 9 of the above map (see the map in the very enlarged version, not the one provided in this post). They are quite like supposed to be "Nephitic" characters and texts and to provide date and limits to Nephitic civilization. And the Jewish scientists, as the one who discovered/researched them, already were able to translate them, to modern language, since long ago, using some type of unusual Hebrew. It can be made with Sabelli's and Nephitic "caractors" also: the same results. But we are to show you how degraded (corrupted as language) were such "USA Nephitic materials", here presented in just a summary and limited sample for comparison. Full material is available in great amount and extension for interested researchers, and can be provided.

You can see that the Nephitic text from quite nearby (they are from USA) is from a civilization that was much decadent in relation to that of the tomb in Orvieto (Italy, of some 2,500 years of age). The last Nephitic text is from a much corrupted characters (in relation to Caractors - you will see below), from a place in New Mexico, USA, point "8" in the map: Los Lunas. Thus Lamanitized Nephite's people, from the collapsed and very corrupted empire, were running away Empire toward Rocky Mountains (Sierra Nevada). And such place, Rocky Mountain was well known for Nephites as a refuge place. Thus they followed the modern Church exodus pathway, moving from Great Lakes to the West, as trough the Illinois River (out of Cumorah region and out of Great Lakes) and then Missouri River to upstream. Thus from Kirtland (where we may have the Nephitic language text at the collapse, see below, not so corrupted into relation to "caractors") to Winter Quarters (in Los Lunas: the place near the town of Albuquerque, in New Mexico), we will see two consecutive stages of degradation of the standard Nephitic characters shown on Gold Plates (as "CARACTORS"). Such "caractors" characters are worth = equivalent to those at Orvieto's Tombs characters (Sabelli's) in Italy (the same thing): the earlier Nephitic characters of some 2,600 - 2,500 years B.C.

See the comparison of "caractors" with Sabellian (Italian) characters, that are from more or less the same age (from the same time) and they are almost identical. A post on that was presented in the section on gold plates. Just click on the next URL and enjoy the comparison, as the translation of a very ancient name (in nephitic like name of 2,500 years ago, into modern name, using "caractors" of Book of Mormon into the upper part and the Sabelli's Osco characters into the lower part for translation).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/88dabbca9cf702b886e3bcd95a913ca48b641763dfb3d41236e61269f57c09bb5g.jpg

We can do the opposite, as imposing some modern names to be translated ancient names (Nephitic or Nephitic like, corrupted) of some 2,500 years ago or alike. See the comparison for Nephitic result (translation to very old names, using caractors and using Sabelli's osco translation). Same results.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/7763fe71bbe68c9fdfb66547833eb5809cd2063b85732f08fee8613d878e26635g.jpg

The comparison of the above translation with below (next) translation, are a good tool to understand the geographic aspects of the dispersion of the Lamanitized Nephitic people and their decay of civilization degree condition, as evident in the decay of their standard of correctly writing the characters ("caractors") and of writing phrases. Thus the dispersion was accompanied with the decay of instruction and learning capacity. With them becoming more ignorant and illiterate people. Collapse of civilization and barbarism. And linked to the geography: to the new frontier of where people were hiding from the core of the collapsed civilization (around Great Lakes).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/cc1eb62bdf60b7c21be43b13c0c0778260bcaba60ee7872d3d1c993ccb1a309b5g.jpg

Click on the URL and see this drawing very enlarged on how USA Indians wrote like we do 2,000 years ago and the geographic use of it. Joseph Smith recognized this pathway of the Nephites collapse from Cumorah region to the Rocky Mountain, quite like the route followed by the modern Church (see the map at the start of this post). This event took place his friends presented him the skeleton of the "white" lamanite warrior named ZELPH (Zelf), at the margin of Illinois River, at the point 9 in the "map"). According Joseph Smith, and Church member's reports, such ZELF = ZELPH was a well known person from Rocky Mountain to ”Cumorah" (which is half way between the great town of New York and the town Buffalo). Thus at the refuge in Rocky Mountain only arrived there the decayed portion of the good Lamanitized Nephites (as Zelph) from the collapsed Nephites Empire. They avoided going to Central America and to the Mexico's bloodies civilizations. They got refuge as if in Rocky Mountain, as in Los Lunas, nearby Albuquerque, where we can see a quite much corrupted Nephitic language: the most recent one available. But even so, it is quite easy to read such nephitic like corrupted text. There is much more material to examine in Nephitic language and in ARTIFACTS (gathered by Jews - now we can read them).

Joseph Smith's CARACTORS (list of characters may include those since Jerusalem to USA lands: we have several type of characters, styles/fashion and evolution phases for Nephitic language through time and space. It is amazing that people never noticed such abundance and variety of characters written on Anthon's list of CARACTORS...

CARACTOR list provides us like the “mirror” of such "evolution, progress") x Sabelli's characters for Sabine dialects of Sabelli's language (for some 5 to 7 century B.C.). They are "the same". We also will "see” the decay and corruption of standard Nephitic when we consider the last phases of Nephitic civilization, already in decay conditions: collapsed.

Now the information related to the Sabelli's language (OSCO dialects) from Orvieto, Italy, of 2600 years ago, is "removed" and replaced with quite easily available and well known information for "late Nephitic language, at the almost collapse of Nephitic empire, or at the collapse?) And with the information related to a much degraded condition of Nephitic language probably "well after" the collapse of Nephitic Empire.

Then those not so "lamanitized" (hybridized, living some of Nephi’s civilization standards), as ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, moved to hide and live in Rocky Mountain (quite like did the modern Church, going to hide in Rocky Mountain, Deseret State = Utah, Salk Lake refuge), they already had a quite decayed Nephitic language and little ability to write using the proper CARACTORS and good grammar. You can read their final message carved on stone, in Los Luna, New Mexico.

Nephites, from Empire under collapse, moved to South, to reach MISSOURI River and upstream. For that they followed along whole Illinois River, going downstream. ZELF was one of them.

Geography of BoM Verified through “”Artifacts”” Found in the United States

www.mormonstruth.org/geography_of_bom_verified.html

The Bones of Zelph, The White Lamanite, and Book of Mormon Lands ... His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, ... during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites. .... Christopher Turner noted that the Fairground Circle in Newark (point "9" in above my map), Ohio aligns to the sunrise ...

[BOMG]

Let us start to provide a full physical map on how “huge” was Nephitic Empire. Can we provide some “clue” with some available information?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but BoM lands were SMALL only 1.5 days wide = 50 miles wide.

Second, their lands were hidden.

Third, they did NOT have intercourse with distant lands and people.

Then those not so "lamanitized" (hybridized, living some of Nephi’s civilization standards), as ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, moved to hide and live in Rocky Mountain (quite like did the modern Church, going to hide in Rocky Mountain, Deseret State = Utah, Salk Lake refuge),

Your approach to incorporate church myth that Lamanites were in the Rocky Mtns or Moroni dedicated temples in Utah is hogwash. No professor at BYU incorporates those claims in their model.

I'll ask again, Do you have an Internal Map? Otherwise you are wasting our time. Go make an Internal Map and come back.

Edited July 15, 2011 by BOMG

[SAVELLI]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but BoM lands were SMALL only 1.5 days wide = 50 miles wide.

Second, their lands were hidden.

Third, they did NOT have intercourse with distant lands and people.

Your approach to incorporate church myth that Lamanites were in the Rocky Mtns (I NEVER TOLD THAT...) or Moroni dedicated temples in Utah (I NEVER TOLD THAT) is hogwash = PIGGISH. No professor at BYU incorporates those YOUR claims in their model.

I'll ask again, Do you have an Internal Map? Otherwise you are wasting our time. Go make an Internal Map and come back.

I am a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR since 1968... Thus 43 years as professor. I was one OWNER of a quite important High Precision Engineering Mapping Company of Brazil, responsible for making maps since for small farms to big high precision maps for design and construction of highways and hydroelectric and for urban maps of towns with all planimetry and altimetry details (including trees, etc) etc. I studied my Master of Science and some of my Ph D course in Berkeley, in the University of California, USA. Even there I never heard about something as strange as "internal map", even to make the required designs. For sure it would be a great and new invention... For sure completely not necessary in the real world, as I continue to be an engineer providing national and worldwide international technical consulting, without the need of some "internal map". We just use the conventional maps. Some are quite like topographic, with elevations above sea level (or other level referential) at important points. Other is just planimetry maps. All depends on the desired use. Road maps, for driving, are usually only planimetry maps. They don't have altimetry information. They can be used as internal maps (inside vehicles or buildings) or can be outside maps (as for people making some construction, as those making field measurements...). Some maps have "physical existence", as having being inked on paper or some transparent material (quite not more in use because of the use of plotters...) and some maps are "virtual maps". Thus they are "inside" some digital file, as in Cad (.dwg extension, for example) and others as even in .JPG and similar to present easily in sites like this... I think you should forget about asking "internal maps".

In fact, for Nephites/Lamanites kingdom I probably have well over hundreds of maps, for distinct purposes and in distinct scales. Some are just planimetry maps. Some are using the altimetry, for some purpose. Thus, there is not just "one type" of map and in just "one scale". And some become replaced by other much better or exact. Some are to be through away, because they were wrong. That is life. Not all things we do are correct. Some need to be updated (revised), etc. There is no such thing as "internal map".

Imagine if Joseph Smith ever had something like yours “internal map” to guide him, as to not get lost. As when he explained that the Nephite’s kingdom was very huge, from Cumorah Hill to the Rocky Mountain. Did he use some “internal map” to illustrate such “truth” as you are requiring from me?

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/zelph.htm

Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior

by Sandra Tanner

Joseph Smith LOCATES Cumorah in Western New York (did he use your “Internal Map”?)

"The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part—one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites." [History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, vol. 2, ch. 5, pp. 79-80]

Where is Joseph’s “internal map”? From “eastern sea” to the “Rocky Mountains”? And from ALL other "features" he preached and talked about? Should he return to do it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where is Joseph’s “internal map”? From “eastern sea” to the “Rocky Mountains”? And from ALL other "features" he preached and talked about? Should he return to do it?

I might not agree with your conclusion but I like your style. Keep going brother.

[BOMG]

I am a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR..There is no such thing as "internal map".

BYU Professor John Sorenson and Joh Clark would not agree. That's why Dr. Sorenson wrote the book "Mormon's Map" which defines the "Internal Map" - his words not mind!

Joseph Smith..As when he explained that the Nephite’s kingdom was very huge, from Cumorah Hill to the Rocky Mountain.

I'm sorry, to base a model on a single isolated statement attributed to Joe (aka Joseph) Smith is bad science.

Where is Joseph’s “internal map”? From “eastern sea” to the “Rocky Mountains”? And from ALL other "features" he preached and talked about? Should he return to do it?

So you know, Joseph did not study the contents of the Book of Mormon and rarely quoted from it. He was not an expert on the perimeter of its geography, but he did verify that the hill in Palmyra was where the final Nephite battle was. Because Sorenson et. al. have shown the smallness of the land, your ideas are wrong and won't work regardless of what formula you have drumbed up.

Final battle in Palmyra + Small Area = Western New York

[Doctor Steuss]

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/cc1eb62bdf60b7c21be43b13c0c0778260bcaba60ee7872d3d1c993ccb1a309b5g.jpg

Click on the URL and see this drawing very enlarged on how USA Indians wrote like we do 2,000 years ago and the geographic use of it.

How exactly do you propose the Native Americans came to start using a variation of the Roman alphabet? And how does this help support the belief in a historical Book of Mormon?

[Hestia]

BOMG is no longer participating.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

BOMG is no longer participating.

Roger that.

[SAVELLI]

BYU Professor John Sorenson and Joh Clark would not agree. That's why Dr. Sorenson wrote the book "Mormon's Map" which defines the "Internal Map" - his words not mind!

BYU Professor John Sorenson and Joh Clark would not agree. That's why Dr. Sorenson wrote the book "Mormon's Map" which defines the "Internal Map" - his words not mind!

For me, a 43 years in duty professional expert in making and using all type of maps,

from those simple and good enough for mapping farms and tree plantations (artificial foresting, edible fruits, etc.),

up to very high precision maps for hydroelectric design,

for all type of urban use (as management and designs of urban works, public works, collecting taxes, etc.)

And for design of airports, ports, industrial complex (as petroleum refineries, metallurgy, etc.),

it is "amazingly unbelievable" the existence of so peculiar "internal Map". As if of some unknown place, imaginary..

This is why some Salt Lake "science" is quite like not considered so seriously/reliable in some fields

in relation to the good USA universities, as Univ. California and others. As on advanced mapping: geosciences.

"Internal Map": forget about. It is my verdict. Just walk with good humanity in its good stage of technical progress.

Would you like to "see" one "good visible EXTERNAL map"? What about the Hill "Riplah, where we can have the almost unlimited view of waters, "RipliAncum"?

Such hill Riplah is in the region of Manti town (Detroit Area, in the border with Canada nation). It is a map of its broad "external" location. It was already provided:

http://img15.mediafire.com/efc3d33da4ecce29cd801f9fddbf675c6791201b00920f432db483fdfeca4ba96g.jpg

Click on such URL. You will see the whole region nearby the Manti town. See as a true and real "map", not map of an "imaginary and theoretical place": internal to your mind.

Now you can click on the next URL and you are to see much enlarged map of the RIPLAH hill. From such hill top we can see the view named "RipliAncum".

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/51cdaf311722f82d437797a53bd4a9af41b7e5719947547ac66047054caa49296g.jpg

Here you can see such map in a not so enlarged view (more reduced scale). But just click over the above URL and you will see the map very enlarged.

For sure it is not an "internal imaginary map", but something "very real, tangible map". You can go there, easily, because it is more than a road or street map. It is a U.S.G.S. map, of very high precision and greatest details. It provides the ground elevation through ground level contour lines. You can have also precise coordinates, as North East to meridians of reference and also N E to some Universal Transverse of Mercator (UTM) and similar that is used in GPS devices for navigation. You can't become "lost" in going to "Hill Riplah". Is this the damned "internal mapping"? Or is it what everybody makes use in their automobiles, boats, airplanes, walking? BE SMART people!

Where is "Riplah"? I found it because I am a great expert in Mapping and not a very biased religious person. I am a "practical person" trying to earn money and "teach"...

There is a huge title, in blue letters. "Riplah Hill", in the upper and middle of the map. And then a black line is going down from it. It reaches exactly "RIPLAH", in bold red inclined letters, and there is a contour line for top elevation of the hill. In the enlarged scale you can see the numbers of the elevation above "sea West", which is Lake Erie.

Lamanite Army marched through a trail on top of the north part of the Riplah hill, toward the direction of Manti (to your left=west, coming from your right=east=from Niagara Fall Isthmus). I provided you the complete pathway of the lamanites along the whole area of this map.

There is a little Riplah Hill at the East side of Riplah Hill, and next to it there is a spring of water: at the east of Riplah Hill. See map. And the Nephite Army was able to hide in the south part of the Riplah Hill and even without going there it is easy to know this is possible because of the "elevation of the ground, by the contour elevation lines". In fact it starts a great slope toward the West Sea (Lake Erie).

If we want much greater details, as the topographic details of the very crown of Riplah Hill, for example, it is just enough to use the URL of the site "terraserver" (that provides such topographic and geodesic service do US government and all its agencies and to all citizens). For the Riplah Hill the coordinates are part of this URL:

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&5=14&Z=17&X=113&Y=1456&W=3&qs=%7cdetroit%7cmi%7c

If you want to know about the "terraserver provider", just examine this following site and "enjoy"!

Let us play with searching "Riplah Hill"? http://www.terraserver.com/

Open the screen by clicking over the above URL. Then enter (type):

Country = Canada; (street = - - void)

City/Place = OLINDA (it is the very tinny village next to "Riplah Hill", on his upper and left side, very close to it; see ma; has no street).

Province = ON (Ontario ---> it comes from the nephitic words !)

Next just press "search" and you "will see Riplah hill" without my help of uploading you maps. You can do it, without crazy "internal maps": nuts.

At the left side, you can see a vertical bar, like an altimeter of helicopter. Press once the square, with the "minus signal" on lower part of it. What will happen?

Voila! Become amazed! You are seeing, very clearly, as if from a helicopter sight-seeing, the "hill Riplah" above the big lower title "Terra-server". I will not say what it appears like. Maybe some type of flower. You can see the Indian trail passing, horizontally, through its north part, and you can see the trail going left to Detroit = Manti.

I was technical director of a big and good technical precision map company. Some persons should stay praying if they don't understand about “practical maps".

Click again over the "lower square, with the minus signal". You will start to see "West Sea", Lake Erie.

Repeat it again. This is also your view from the top of Riplah Hill. You can have an angle of vision of almost 180°, from you right to left side. It is "RIPLiANCUM", the fact of being able to see quite like so vast and infinite amount of waters. Quite like Sabellian word, RIPLIancona...

Repeat again pressing on the lower square with minus signal. Now besides full vision of West Sea (Lake Erie), or can have (turning back, 180°), Lake St. Clair (start of North Lands, North Sea).

Let’s do it again? Upper part is Lake Huron, North Sea (River Sidon "Lenthic").

I guess what is such "internal map"... When Federal University was celebrating 50 years, it decided to make a dispute offering a very good prize in cash for the one who would present a totally new intellectual creation, for such celebration. And it was to be published. I decided to win the prize because of the money. And I was the winner, because I offered something new, like the "internal intellectual solution for unsolved problems”. Or to make quite simples to solve complex problems. That is quite like how to solve the Book of Mormon geography problem... and mapping. What I did? Instead of solving the real problems (there were not yet powerful computers to solve the complex computations for design of structure as for tall buildings, for industry, etc.) I decided to "change the world, the one “internal”, not the “real one”. Thus I changed the “real Universe” to other(s).

Thus instead of our four dimensional universe (X, Y, Z, T) I demonstrated that it was possible to create some "internal" (to our mind and imagination) Universe, at our will, that could transform complex structures (as a complex and tall building) into quite simple and easy to solve structures. For sure it was generated some kind of transformation links (equations) from one "universe" to the "other", as to allow to "return" the results. Or it would be in vain.

And the philosophical reasoning is that sometimes our problems are difficult because we use not appropriate viewpoints to examine and solve them. If we "transform the problems" toward a more complex "other universe", maybe there will be no solution, even with very excellent computers. Because we are making them insoluble!

And I was able to solve some Einstein's equations (and other things quite absurd), that were unsolved for quite long time in good Universities, because they tried to solve toward a complex/standard way and I used a solution toward a "simpler universe"... and I was not a PhD. That is the BoM problem.

[Nathair/|\]

I thought most Indians were born in North America, to be honest.

Actually, there are 48 million in North America and 1.2 billion in India according to Wikipedia, but you can change that if you like.

[Calm]

Joseph,

"(American) Indian" is applied to both North and South America indigenous populations: http://dictionary.re...m/browse/indian

Also called American Indian, Amerind, Amerindian, Native American. a member of the aboriginal people of America or of any of the aboriginal North or South American stocks, usually excluding the Eskimos.

Edited July 16, 2011 by calmoriah

[Joseph Antley]

I appreciate the corrections!

[SAVELLI]

Let's examine again the Riplah Hill subject. Now we will examine the very top (crown) of RIPLah Hill.

In the last posted material we already examined a quite general land around the RIPLah Hill through the supply of the next URL.

It allows you to see much enlarged the region around RIPLAH hill, but without having great details specific to the top or crown of Riplah Hill.

http://www.mediafire...54caa49296g.jpg

Here you can see such map in a not so enlarged view (more reduced scale). But just click over the above URL and you will see the map very enlarged.

From such hill top we can see the view named "RipliAncum".

What are the "greatly enlarged details" of the very "top or crown" of Riplah Hill, thus in a very short distance?

Click over the next URL and see "very enlarged" such top or crown of the very RiplAH Hill with great topographic details related to it.

http://www.mediafire...808273d1b6g.jpg

This is just the small sized scale map of the top or crown of the RiplAH Hill, Click on previous URL to see such map very enlarged.

At the upper part of RiplAH Hill we have the Lamanite trail, from right going to left and then upward, going to Detroit (Manti).

You can see that the Indian trail climbed RiplAh Hill (but they could not see the Nephite's Army hidden on South) and before they

also climbed a smaller version of hill alike a small version of Riplah Hill.

The top or crown was just above the elevation of 225 m (above Sea West, Lake Erie, which is at 174,2m of elevation), according the topographic contour line around the crown and water level elevation in one topographic map.

Thus Riplah Hill is some 50 m above water level of Sea West (Lake Erie).

It is the local highest peak in the region. Greatest and magnificent view: RipliAncum (!).

It is a very strategic place to see traffic of boats and ships through Manti, in Lake Erie and through Sidon River.

And it is also nice to see troop’s movements along Indian trails toward Manti or coming from it, as to go to Isthmus Niagara.

See where it was the water fountain (spring), an essential supply for any Army.

This kind of map you can obtain from U.S.G.S. I paid nothing for it. It is available for all USA lands and some other lands (as part of Canada).

http://www.mediafire...e5d0dd9a86g.jpg

If you want to see the next (below) map much more enlarged, please click on previous URL.

The map shows the broad region around Riplah Hill, going to Manti town and Sidon River.

You can see that the Indian trail survived very nicely because it was transformed into modern paved streets and avenues.

You can see also the exact point of crossing Sidon River, because of many things. One of them is because it is the narrowest "neck".

As if the "bottle neck", in which USA lands and Canada lands are quite like pressing the Sidon river to the least width (600m...).

You can see why Teancum, now with a corrupted name, was so important. It was a fort to control an important Indian trail coming to Manti town.

You should learn that Jordan River continued to flow, as Jordan River "LENTHIC" through (under, hidden...) Lake Galilee.

The same is here with Sidon River flowing as "Lenthic" condition river under Lake St. Clair and Sea West (quite like Sea Galilee) = Lake Erie.

And the very "pressed and narrowed" Sidon river is passing through the narrowed width as "river in lothic flow condition". Nothing of “image maps” from “imagination” (as if from Beetles’ Imagine)...

That is modernity that I learned in Berkeley in 1978 and since then I teach to my students at the University... without praying: public university.

http://www.mediafire...7191f87046g.jpg

Also you may click on URL to see the enlarged version of next below map. What/where are "North sea and north land". North is defined in relation to "what"?

Here you can see the Indian trail, coming since Riplah Hill, arriving at the margin of Sidon River (Detroit River), at the point where the NECK is the most narrow possible.

In such place ("exact point") the river Sidon is flowing from East to West (check it enlarging a precision topographic map from USGS). Maybe at that time they used magnetic North (remember: LiahONA was a magnetic compass). Thus some little deviation is possible with true geographic north.

They built Fort Wayne in such most narrow River width exactly because it was the most strategic possible position, as in the Nephitic Empire days.

Manti fort (town) was in the place of Fort Wayne and was as strategic as Constantinople, of the old past days (between Europe and Asia) to control vast movements of goods (merchandise) and troops in great Nephitic Empire.

Great (huge) Hagoth's sail ships, with cargo and passengers, had to pass through Manti that was like Constantinople: the "NECK"... I even got a great deal of hydraulics information related to Sidon River and its cross section, flow velocity, transport of sediment, ice, etc. in front of Manti town...

At such position Sidon River "lothic" (Detroit River) is a Huge River.

It was not easy for Lamanites cross it, mainly if their boats (Kayaks) were punctured on departure by Nephites run back them since Riplah...

http://www.mediafire...83202a50c6g.jpg

OK. Little to say. Pay attention to the date. This late version is of 2004. I guess first versions are over 10 years old.

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI