Gold Plates Seminar--Byu

[Mike Reed]

Chris Smith and I are having a great time in Provo. Believe it or not, we've both been selected to participate in Bushman/Givens' six-week gold plates seminar at BYU (in the Maxwell Institute building). Can't wait to start researching! We would've already started digging through the archives/libraries by now, but everything seems to be closed on sundays. I hear that we'll soon hear from Dan Peterson. Looking forward to meeting you, Dan. We met once before, long ago when I was a low-tier FAIR apologist... so you probably don't remember.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Mike Reed

[Mortal Man]

Chris Smith and I are having a great time in Provo. Believe it or not, we've both been selected to participate in Bushman/Givens' six-week gold plates seminar at BYU (in the Maxwell Institute building). Can't wait to start researching! We would've already started digging through the archives/libraries by now, but everything seems to be closed on sundays. I hear that we'll soon hear from Dan Peterson. Looking forward to meeting you, Dan. We met once before, long ago when I was a low-tier FAIR apologist... so you probably don't remember.

That is awesome Mike. If anybody's got the Gold Plates, it's probably somebody at the MI. Provo is the best place to start looking. Let us know what you and Chris dig up!

[Chris Smith]

That is awesome Mike. If anybody's got the Gold Plates, it's probably somebody at the MI. Provo is the best place to start looking. Let us know what you and Chris dig up!

Oh, the MI definitely has the gold plates. My understanding is that they're going to be in the center of the table during our seminar meetings to serve as inspiration. We also have an expert on crystal-divination in the seminar, so hopefully we'll get to try our hand at some translation. (I wish I had a camera, so I could take some pictures to show you that I'm only half-joking!)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to my six week stint as a FARMS/Maxwell Institute scholar. I fully expect to be offered a full-time stint writing for the Review once the seminar is over, but I may have to turn it down. Other obligations, you know. (Sorry, Dan!)

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chris Smith

[Joseph Antley]

I get back into town today. Do you have my phone number Mike? I want to come visit you and Chris.

[cinepro]

Oh, the MI definitely has the gold plates. My understanding is that they're going to be in the center of the table during our seminar meetings to serve as inspiration.

The Church does have several very nice models of the gold plates. While they do help visualize the artifact, they aren't so helpful when it comes to a discussion of whether or not something like that could be faked.

[Mike Reed]

I get back into town today. Do you have my phone number Mike? I want to come visit you and Chris.

I called the number you have listed on facebook and left a message. I also sent you a facebook message with my number.

[SAVELLI]

http://www.mediafire...d878e26636g.jpg

AMULON, in Neph's way of reading, which is from RIGHT to LEFT (as in Hebrew), thus it is written "backwards" as if "N_O_L_U_M_A" and it is in such way (NOLUMA) that we can see and take picture of modern AMULON word, when written on 2,500 years ago NEPHI's plates (as gold or silver or copper ones...).

Next the "modern" CHARACTERS are REPLACED by the very ancient CARACTORS, from Joseph Smith's LIST OF CHARACTERS, copied from gold plates of Book of Mormon, and provided to USA scientist ANTHON. I was able to translate such LIST of "CARACTORS" (that was the TITTLE for NEPHI's characters, as title head on the document to ANTHON), using SCIENCE. It was like the work of CHAMPOLION in translating the "STONE of ROSETA", to be possible to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs into modern languages. I did the same: pure science and joy.

Notice that 2 (TWO) lines with STRANGE CHARACTERS, generating 2 strange words, following 2 very different pathway and procedures for NEPHI's language and ITALIAN (SABELLIch) language. And the result came out as being THE SAME, or with very little difference. Thus the SABELLI's language is the SAME language as NEPHI's language and NEPHI's words (as MORONI...) are yet living in the SABELLIch language. And there are much more interesting things

http://www.mediafire...e9c51f2a36g.jpg

Here we are doing the opposite. Changing from a text written some 2,500 years ago into MODERN text: the name of a deceased person who was buried in one of these many tombs in Italy, in 1830 (the same year of public Book of Mormon, to provide SCIENCE TESTIMONY, WITNESS, of CARACTORS being true, Nephi's characters...). But nobody NOTICE that SMALL "scientific detail". In the lower part of the drawing, you can see the ENTRANCE of one of the many TOMBS, in Italy, and a NAME written (carved into) ROCK on top of the entrance door. Could we read something so OLD, of 2,500 years, and that is written in SABELLIch = NEPHIch languages?

YES! JUST follow the scientific procedure, and you are able to TRANSLATE any GOLD PLATES, in any direction. From modernity to Lehi's days or the opposite. See it.<br style=""> <br style="">

http://www.mediafire...9f57c09bb6g.jpg

WE HAVE NOW the NEPHITIC TEXT (WORD, and they were found also OUTSIDE ITALY, even in USA... and I was ABLE TO TRANSLATE such strange symbols and enigmatic characters, as in Joseph's LIST of CARACTORS, into the MODERNITY text, word). Quite like CHAPOLION did with the hyerogliphs from Egypt...

Notice that above the ORIGINAL PHRASE, of 2,500 years of age, it was generated a TRANSLATION like of GOLD PLATES, which is shown in a DIDACTIC PHASHION (I am a professor since 1968, M.Sc. Univ.California, Berkeley, 1978...) and a MODERN WORD was generated in BLUE characters on JOSEPH SMITH's characters, HAND COPY from GOLD PLATES and numbered as on ANTHON's caractors document, in RED. In between them you can see the ORIGINAL CHARACTER, each one, as copied by Joseph Smith's hands. Such ancient characteres were LIVING=carved on stone since 2,500 years ago, also. They are the same. The language is the same. H I O R W=ú L L I M (as in Nephitich, thus reading from right to left is our modernity way of writting: MILLúROIH. Notice the double L (i LL ú) between two vowels: a rule from Hebrew and yet very much in use in Italy in names of person (as me, SaveLLI, instead of SaveLi) and in personal names of Latin language spoken people.

And in the lower part, bellow the original written on stone, it is used the standard TRANSLATION for ancient SABELLIch (as OSCO and SABINE) language, and the CHARACTERS generated in modernity are the SAME, because NEPHITIch and SABELLIch are the same language (the hypothesis...). The result is also MILLUROIH...

Best personal regards, sincerely yours, SAVELLI

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Chris Smith and I are having a great time in Provo. Believe it or not, we've both been selected to participate in Bushman/Givens' six-week gold plates seminar at BYU (in the Maxwell Institute building). Can't wait to start researching! We would've already started digging through the archives/libraries by now, but everything seems to be closed on sundays. I hear that we'll soon hear from Dan Peterson. Looking forward to meeting you, Dan. We met once before, long ago when I was a low-tier FAIR apologist... so you probably don't remember.

Wait...I like both of you (still waiting for your book) but why are two "non-believers" asked to address something they clearly never in Chris case, and no more in yours...why are you speaking?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Oh, the MI definitely has the gold plates. My understanding is that they're going to be in the center of the table during our seminar meetings to serve as inspiration.

Covered with a cloth?

[Chris Smith]

Wait...I like both of you (still waiting for your book) but why are two "non-believers" asked to address something they clearly never in Chris case, and no more in yours...why are you speaking?

Two reasons.

First, we're studying the cultural history of the gold plates, rather than the gold plates themselves. You don't have to believe the plates are a physical artifact to study how they've figured in Mormon art, lore, scholarship, and controversy.

Second, Richard and Terryl understand that the believers' perspective isn't the all-encompassing, perfect answer to life and everything. They're interested in our perspective partly because we're non-believers, so we bring different insights and voices to the table than the believers do. Having both believers and non-believers at the table forces us to develop a neutral language for talking about these issues that can be acceptable to everyone. I think Richard and Terryl find that useful, because they want Mormon Studies to be able to speak to nonbelievers rather than being a totally in-grown, provincial discourse.

[De Groote]

If anybody's got the Gold Plates, it's probably somebody at the MI.

The last time I was at the Maxwell Institute, Gold Plates were in the Institute's library. They were on the right side on a shelf near the door.

[MAsh]

Congrats Mike & Chris.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Best personal regards, sincerely yours, SAVELLI

I have to confess, I am having a hard time following what you are saying.

[Joseph Antley]

I have to confess, I am having a hard time following what you are saying.

Props at least for taking a whack at it. It's more than some of us can say.

[bjw]

Does Savelli have a website or blog that discusses his method in more detail?

[daz2]

I believe wikileaks had facsimiles of the original plates and would have released but for some unfortunate run ins with various unhappy government, credit card processors, and certain courts.

[KevinG]

The plates are being used as a doorstop for the great vault under the Salt Lake Temple where they smuggle the kidnapped English girls before making them part of the Prophet's harem. I heard it from the brother of the uncle of the cleaning crew supervisor.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Two reasons.

First, we're studying the cultural history of the gold plates, rather than the gold plates themselves. You don't have to believe the plates are a physical artifact to study how they've figured in Mormon art, lore, scholarship, and controversy.

Second, Richard and Terryl understand that the believers' perspective isn't the all-encompassing, perfect answer to life and everything. They're interested in our perspective partly because we're non-believers, so we bring different insights and voices to the table than the believers do. Having both believers and non-believers at the table forces us to develop a neutral language for talking about these issues that can be acceptable to everyone. I think Richard and Terryl find that useful, because they want Mormon Studies to be able to speak to nonbelievers rather than being a totally in-grown, provincial discourse.

I was not being critical, but a bit bewildered by the situation. You will be in my prayers, as you have been since (by your admission) you have become agnostic. Seek him out as you once did, you will find him or he will find you. Good luck of the endeavor.

[volgadon]

SAVELLI ( = SABELLI probably since Joel 3:6). Thus probably oldest surname known in Church (some 3,000 years old).

Please provide us with an unambiguous example of the name Savelli appearing 3000 years ago or the distinction will have to go to a certain Katz of western Ukraine.

[Mortal Man]

The Church does have several very nice models of the gold plates. While they do help visualize the artifact, they aren't so helpful when it comes to a discussion of whether or not something like that could be faked.

How many leaves do these models have? I've argued that 500+ unbound leaves would have been required to fit the text of the BoM. Add in the sealed portion and you get 1500-2000 plates. What is the minimum thickness (now where have we heard that before?) required to enable inscription on both sides without feeding through? It does not appear possible to have more than about 30 plates and still meet the weight requirements or match the witness's descriptions. It seems we need a missing plates theory akin to the missing papyrus theory.

[Nemesis]

Off topic posts have been removed.

Nemesis

[SAVELLI]

Please provide us with an unambiguous example of the name Savelli appearing 3000 years ago or the distinction will have to go to a certain Katz of western Ukraine.

I already posted something about this. Maybe it was erased, also. People didn't like Galileo Galilei because he didn't write nice things, as he was a scientist. And his research reports were presented without a good presentation. He used too many bold letters, underlines, figures, unwanted comments, etc. Poor Galileo... RIP!

As I told I was presenting technical consulting, some 7 (?) years ago in Asia, and in a religious and social event I had contact with the Hindu (of Hinduism religion) religion who was celebrating the wedding. I showed my "card" and he noticed the "savelli" surname and asked if I was of a Jewish family. He explained that my "brothers", the Saberiah people, are living in India since they run away from Persia (where they yet are known as "Saberi or Saber" and "r" replaces "L", thus they are the Sabeli). And they came to Persia running away from Babylon Empire, in the exodus that dispersed them through Asia. For sure I have none genealogy going back so far away. But the information was provided by a high-priest, about the sabelli people time they were living in India. He told that some very old Indian (Hindu) towns started with Sabelli's. Thus remain their names in them.

You will find the Sabelli name and history in the history of Rome, so many centuries before Christ. As in good History Books, as History of Civilization, written in the USA by the Jew writer, Will Durant, in some 14 thick volumes. You will see that Sabelli managed the pagan religion and politics of Rome very long time before Christ... And when they saw Christianism was to run Rome Empire, they converted to run and manage also the Catholic religion for many and many centuries, having the Popes Savelli. Smart?

Off topic posts have been removed.

Nemesis

Senior Admin

You... Obey The Fist.

In fact, what are the true “topic posts” guidelines? It appears that the discussion or reasoning about “gold plates” is very vast, wide and vague at the same time.

Should we consider the possibility that there was “progress” or “changes” and even “decline” in the Nephitic language and characters? Or that the characters should change with time and geographical position, as related to changing influences? That is very normal in any human society and in their language, literature... Some may get lost the capacity to write any text, as result of decaying the degree of civilization.

It appears the Anthon’s “caractors”, as a list of characters copied from Gold Plates by Joseph Smith, is showing such type of change or progress in the standard Nephitic language and characters, even on Gold Plates.

That is quite evident because of several examples for the distinct ways of writing a given character presented in Anthon’s “caractors” document.

We can do that by comparing even decayed Nephitic characters in relation to the similar standard ones in the Anthon’s “caractors” list. The same happens in relation to other similar like characters, even from before the Nephitic civilization. In unbiased science, true/free evaluation is provided/required, as allowing free posting, for an open review of the results and models/propositions. That is required for the progress of science and truth.Let there be light.

Chris Smith and I are having a great time in Provo. Believe it or not, we've both been selected to participate in Bushman/Givens' six-week gold plates seminar at BYU (in the Maxwell Institute building). Can't wait to start researching! We would've already started digging through the archives/libraries by now, but everything seems to be closed on sundays. I hear that we'll soon hear from Dan Peterson. Looking forward to meeting you, Dan. We met once before, long ago when I was a low-tier FAIR apologist... so you probably don't remember.

[SAVELLI]

How are written the following names on Gold Plates of Book of Mormon?

Read them, in black big bold letters, from right to left (as if in Hebrew). They are in capital letters, at the head of the 4 examples below.

More names can be provided. or you, yourself, can do that, as if restoring Book of Mormon on original like "metalic/metalized thin plates".

1) - M O R M O N (MOR + MON, read from right to left, to read as if MON + MOR = MOuNtain + MOre,

The most important of all MOuNtains. CALVARY MONte = Hill, for religious purpose). MORMON name is "worth" CALVARY hill.

2) - MORONI (MORO + NI, read as NI + MORO. It means NI=humble + MORO=bitter). MORONI = humble bittered man.

This name was very common in Roman Empire, and in Rome, even in days of Jesus Christ and before.

Could be written in several versions, as Moroni, Morone, Morroni, Morrone and others. Very popular name. Jewish name.

Quite like "worth" as Mariana or Maryni, Maryna, Maryno, Maryne, with MR meaning "bitterness", deep suffering in the soul, etc.MR+NA or NE or Ni or NO.

Thus MORONI in fact was the same meaning, written in another way, MR-NI

3) - Amulon

4) - Alma

MOR is a very much used word originated from LATIN. It means “of greatest importance”. Thus captain “mor” is the most powerful/important captain of all.

Latin inherited a lot of Sabelli's words. MON is used for "hill", as in MONmatre, an important "hill" of Paris, where it started. Mon is from "mon-te, monte=hill". From MOuNtain and English corruption adding the "U". Thus "mon" is the short version of MOuNtain. See images from MONmatre region of Paris:

Imagens de MonMatre

http://www.mediafire...dd98fc6c96g.jpg

You can see how it was written MORMON and MORONI quite in the standard Nephitic language, on "GOLD PLATES", thus using very good quality standard CARACTORS (standard Nephitic characters = Sabelli's).

We could expect this kind of writting quite like from gold plates written in Cumorah Hill geographic position at the start of the Nephitic Empire or any time.

Then, in the next line of Characters, under the line with CARACTORS, you can see the situation of Nephite Characters at the Geographic middle position of Nephitic Empire, more or less at the date of its collapse.

Finally, the next line shows the final situation, the involution toward very corrupted characters, at the Geographic extreme position (Los Lunas, near Albuquerque), toward Rocky Mountain (New Mexico), already very departed from the normal (core) Nephite Empire limits. After the collapse of such Empire.

Click over previous (above) URL for you see the next following figure very enlarged and the characters and Caractors in great details:

With best personal regards, sincerely yours, SAVELLI

[Mike Reed]

what are the true “topic posts” guidelines? It appears that the discussion or reasoning about “gold plates” is very vast, wide and vague at the same time.

The topic of this thread is the seminar. Not the gold plates themselves.

[kolipoki09]

How are written the following names on Gold Plates of Book of Mormon?

Read them, in black big bold letters, from right to left (as if in Hebrew). They are in capital letters, at the head of the 4 examples below.

More names can be provided. or you, yourself, can do that, as if restoring Book of Mormon on original like "metalic/metalized thin plates".

Neither the Egyptians or the Hebrews wrote out their vowels, yet according to your own method, the vowels were there. It seems a bit odd that an engraver/writer would complain about the Hebrew script (already abbreviated without vowels) being too long and yet painstakingly write out each vowel as well. If this is not a classic example of radical parallelomania, I don't know what is. If in fact each "caractor" represented a letter, rather than a word, the plates would be on my own guesstimate, at least 40,000 leaves in length. For some reason, I don't see that being plausible. Neither should you.

As John Gee has noted:

Though the so-called Anthon transcript contains a mere seven lines of text, it contains about eighty different characters; however, since the sample size is small, one is not able to determine whether the script is syllabic (like Ethiopic) or logographic (like Egyptian or Mayan). The transcript was in the possession of Oliver Cowdery who gave it to David Whitmer; it then passed to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with the rest of David Whitmer's manuscripts. If this is the copy of the characters that was taken to Anthon, then it comes from the part of the Book of Mormon that was translated while Martin Harris was the scribe, and thus is from the missing 116 pages. If this were the case, we should expect it to be from Mormon's abridgment of the Nephite record (see Words of Mormon 1:3–7; D&C 10:30, 38–42). This would mean that it would be from the handwriting of Mormon (after ca. A.D. 362; see Mormon 3:8–11) and not from the small plates. We would then expect it to be a Semitic language written in an Egyptian script—a Semitic language that had been modified by time and creolization with the American languages, and an Egyptian script that had been modified not only by being engraved on metal plates, but also changed along with the handwriting styles and modifications of the Nephites (see Mormon 9:32). This has then been copied by a nineteenth-century hand in pen and ink. -John Gee, "The Hagiography of Doubting Thomas," FARMS Review of Books 10/2 (1998): 171–72.

If the so-called Anthon transcript is the actual piece of paper that Martin Harris took to Charles Anthon, it is safe to assume that the characters came from the text they were then translating (the 116 missing manuscript pages, which contained a record from the time of Lehi to the time of King Benjamin)...

...A major obstacle faces those attempting a translation of the Anthon transcript — the corpus is not large enough to render decipherment feasible. The same, of course, is true of the writing on the Phaistos disk and the examples of the Isthmian or Mixtec scripts. There is still some debate about whether scholars have cracked some of the scripts that have a slightly larger corpus, like Linear A and Harrapan. Scripts that actually have been solved —such as hieroglyphic Hittite, Maya, cuneiform, Egyptian hieroglyphs, hieratic, demotic, and Ugaritic — all have immense bodies of texts.

Changing gears...

Mike and Chris, I'm thrilled that each of you are participating in the Bushman seminar. I had a philosophy professor who participated a few years back who loved it. I look forward to being involved myself in a few years (if it is still offered). I know you and Chris usually keep several of us updated on the seminar through Facebook, but it probably wouldn't hurt to mention the goings-on at the seminar on this board from time-to-time.