Fitting Evidence

[Mortal Man]

The Book of Ether is 31 pages long and was originally written on 24 plates; hence, 1 plate =~1.3 pages of printed text. The Book of Mormon is 531 pages long. It was produced from a handwritten manuscript of ~480 pages. Adding in the 116 pages from the lost manuscript gives ~596 pages of manuscript. Thus if we had the lost Book of Lehi, the BoM would be 596(531/480)=~659 pages of printed text. Using the Jaredite plates as a guide, 659/1.3 = ~507 unbound plates buried by Moroni. Now look at the replica of the golden plates, which was constructed as a best match to all the various witness' descriptions.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

How many plates do you count?

[LeSellers]

The Book of Ether is 31 pages long and was originally written on 24 plates; ...

Sorry, false premise.

You appear to assume that the twenty-four plates of pure gold that Limhi's explorers found made up the book of Ether. They did not, and the text is more than clear on this matter.

Moroni not only translated Ether, he abridged it. There is no evidence as to the length of Moroni's "Ether": it could have been as little as a single plate.

Lehi

[Tsuzuki]

..it could have been as little as a single plate.

And double spaced, with a HUGE font.

[Notquitewetyet]

And double spaced, with a HUGE font.

Actually, many writings from the ANE were tiny. Cuneiform tablets often had almost tightsmallscriptswithnospacesbetweenwords

[Areabird]

Even if the abridged book of Ether was only one page long, what about the book of mormon itself? That would still be an awful lot of plates, wouldn't it? I don't see many plates in the picture. This doesn't make sense at all....

[Mortal Man]

Sorry, false premise.

You appear to assume that the twenty-four plates of pure gold that Limhi's explorers found made up the book of Ether. They did not, and the text is more than clear on this matter.

Moroni not only translated Ether, he abridged it. There is no evidence as to the length of Moroni's "Ether": it could have been as little as a single plate.

Lehi

I was waiting for this reponse. It invokes the ideaographic assumption for Moroni's translation/abridgement. If Moroni abridged in this manner then would it not be reasonable to assume that he learned it from his father? Before deciding on this position consider the multiplicity of word print analyses that "prove" many different authors of the Book of Mormon. These computer word-pattern studies assume a grammatically literal translation; i.e., a verbatim word-for-word form-for-form rendition, such that the author's original words were preserved both through Mormon/Moroni and Joseph Smith. Which way are you going to have it? A loose ideaographic translation or a tight word-for-word translation?

[LeSellers]

Even if the abridged book of Ether was only one page long, what about the book of mormon itself? That would still be an awful lot of plates, wouldn't it? I don't see many plates in the picture. This doesn't make sense at all....

The picture does not necessarily represent the reality of the golden plates.

If we take the one plate as yielding 31 pages of printed text, and divide 31 into 531, we get about 18 plates. That's not a bad estimate, given Joseph's and Emma's (inter alia) description of the plates, their size and thickness. Even were we to assume Ether came from two plates, the resulting 35 plates is within the realm of possibility.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I was waiting for this reponse.

Glad to oblige.

It invokes the ideaographic assumption for Moroni's translation/abridgement.

To you, perhaps. There is no need for it here. An abridgement, particularly one like Ether, is much less and much more than a translation. Please note the number of times that the prophet included his own commentary on the history.

If Moroni abridged in this manner than would it not be reasonable to assume that he learned it from his father?

Reasonable, but that does not explain the radically different style of abridgment in Ether compared to, say, Alma.

Before deciding on this position consider the multiplicity of word print analyses that "prove" many different authors of the Book of Mormon. These computer word-pattern studies assume a grammatically literal translation; i.e., a verbatim word-for-word form-for-form rendition, such that the author's original words were preserved both through Mormon/Moroni and Joseph Smith. Which way are you going to have it? A loose ideaographic translation or a tight word-for-word translation?

You are trying to force a dichotomy where none is required.

Lehi

[Mortal Man]

The picture does not necessarily represent the reality of the golden plates.

Considering who made it, how it was made, the research that went into it and where it was displayed afterwards, I'd say that the replica is as close to official church doctrine as it's possible to get. Also keep in mind that the plates were written on both sides, which is good because it doubles your space, yet bad because the plates had to be pretty thick (like "common tin"). Also, keep in mind the box they had to fit in. http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/golden_plates.html

You are trying to force a dichotomy where none is required.

If Mormon/Moroni or Joseph condensed considerably in their translations, then how did specific word patterns survive to identify the original authors? http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_wordprint_studies

I'm just asking you to take one of two mutually-exclusive positions.

[jonzlaw]

consider the multiplicity of word print analyses that "prove" many different authors of the Book of Mormon.

I have never heard this before. Can you, or anyone, expand on this please?

[Obiwan]

If Mormon/Moroni or Joseph condensed considerably in their translations, then how did specific word patterns survive to identify the original authors? http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_wordprint_studies

I'm just asking you to take one of two mutually-exclusive positions.

Easy.... It's the same way Bill Ayers likely "edited/wrote" one of Obama's books.... Both author's voices are mixed in, or three if you also include Joseph.

[Joseph Antley]

This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads I've seen on here that borders on trolling.

It's a picture of a model someone made. Who the heck cares if it's not an accurate representation of what they looked like?

Considering who made it, how it was made, the research that went into it and where it was displayed afterward, I'd say that the replica is as close to official church doctrine as it's possible to get.

Are you kidding? Doctrine has nothing to do with what a bunch of pieces of metal looked like.

[jonzlaw]

.. Both author's voices are mixed in, or three if you also include Joseph.

Who were the other authors????

[Joseph Antley]

Who were the other authors????

I think he's referring to Ether (perhaps the original abridger) and Moroni (the final abridger).

[maklelan]

Considering who made it, how it was made, the research that went into it and where it was displayed afterwards, I'd say that the replica is as close to official church doctrine as it's possible to get.

That assertion is utterly ludicrous. It's an artist's depiction, and the artist isn't trying to replicate the thickness of the plates. They're trying to produce something sturdy and of aesthetic value. Of all the cockamamie theories to try to try to prove the Book of Mormon false, this ranks among the most ridiculous.

[ERayR]

There were actually 39 1/2 plates enscribed an both sides. They had little curly edges and tiny little scroll work cut into the edges. When set on end on the table and all fanned out it looked like a little gold castle. Now that is doctrine.

[Mortal Man]

That assertion is utterly ludicrous. It's an artist's depiction, and the artist isn't trying to replicate the thickness of the plates. They're trying to produce something sturdy and of aesthetic value. Of all the cockamamie theories to try to try to prove the Book of Mormon false, this ranks among the most ridiculous.

No, this

is an artist's depiction.

I suggest you click on the link below the picture in my first post if you want to actually learn about the historical replica. I'll include it again here for your personal convenience.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

[LeSellers]

Considering who made it, how it was made, the research that went into it and where it was displayed afterwards, I'd say that the replica is as close to official church doctrine as it's possible to get. Also keep in mind that the plates were written on both sides, which is good because it doubles your space, yet bad because the plates had to be pretty thick (like "common tin").

Yet, while most descriptions tell us that two-thirds of the plates were sealed, the "facsimile" shows more than three-quarters, or even five-sixths, so bound.

Such a simple thing, but the artist (as opposed to a prophet) got it wrong. What else is in error? Your premise is that this sculpture/artifact represents the best we have to judge the number of plates, but I see nothing to support your conjecture.

Lehi

[Cold Steel]

The plates most likely were of varying thicknesses and may have been made of varying alloys. Gold is soft and resists corrosion. It's also heavy. The writing, too, may have been of varying sizes, depending on the room the writer perceived he had left. One can see in the "Caractors" manuscript how, at the bottom of the page, the copyist reduced the size of the letters as he neared the bottom of the paper. Who knows about the actual plates?

[RubyHunter]

Oh thank you "Mortal Man".

You have shown me the error of my ways.

You have saved me from this cult.

I can never thank you enough.

Now I am free to join the Jehova's Witnesses.

Thank you.

...... Piffle

[maklelan]

No, this

is an artist's depiction.

I suggest you click on the link below the picture in my first post if you want to actually learn about the historical replica. I'll include it again here for your personal convenience.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

Models made for the New Era don't even approach anything at all related to church doctrine. You'll also notice it ended with the statement that many details are still lacking. It's an artist's attempt to replicate the plates, which is, and always will be, an artist's rendition. It's absolutely laughable to insist this has anything to do with an official position on what the plates looked like.

[Mortal Man]

Models made for the New Era don't even approach anything at all related to church doctrine. You'll also notice it ended with the statement that many details are still lacking. It's an artist's attempt to replicate the plates, which is, and always will be, an artist's rendition. It's absolutely laughable to insist this has anything to do with an official position on what the plates looked like.

Feel free to build your own model with 500+ plates and we'll see if your replica also gets accepted for display at the Church History Museum.

[LeSellers]

Feel free to build your own model with 500+ plates and we'll see if your replica also gets accepted for display at the Church History Museum.

There is no reason to continue this 500 plate fetish.

It is more than likely that there were only about 20~30.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

The Book of Ether is 31 pages long and was originally written on 24 plates; hence, 1 plate =~1.3 pages of printed text. The Book of Mormon is 531 pages long. It was produced from a handwritten manuscript of ~480 pages. Adding in the 116 pages from the lost manuscript gives ~596 pages of manuscript. Thus if we had the lost Book of Lehi, the BoM would be 596(531/480)=~659 pages of printed text. Using the Jaredite plates as a guide, 659/1.3 = ~507 unbound plates buried by Moroni. Now look at the replica of the golden plates, which was constructed as a best match to all the various witness' descriptions.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

How many plates do you count?

The 24 gold plates of Ether also contained the entire sealed portion of the BOM, the account given to the Brother of Jared of the beginning of the world to the end. What we have is a very very small abridgment by Moroni of the same record.

Cheers.

[maklelan]

Feel free to build your own model with 500+ plates and we'll see if your replica also gets accepted for display at the Church History Museum.

I've got far better things to do with my time.