Fitting Evidence

[RubyHunter]

Why do you assume that they used the same word, same letters, and same setting for language as they did?

You assume (Incorrectly!) that its a word for word translation meaning page for page. When the book we have now isnt the same layout or page number that was there 100 years ago.

Seriously. Your PROOF fails.

[lostindc]

Feel free to build your own model with 500+ plates and we'll see if your replica also gets accepted for display at the Church History Museum.

more stellar scholarship by the extra smart of this board...

[Sevenbak]

Why do you assume that they used the same word, same letters, and same setting for language as they did?

You assume (Incorrectly!) that its a word for word translation meaning page for page. When the book we have now isnt the same layout or page number that was there 100 years ago.

Seriously. Your PROOF fails.

Not to mention the Jaredite record was written in the Adamic Language, the language of God. Not even close, anyone who tries to compare what we have today.

[Areabird]

Not to mention the Jaredite record was written in the Adamic Language, the language of God. Not even close, anyone who tries to compare what we have today.

Actually the Adamic language, when compared to english, comprises far more words per sentence. It takes at least 3 pages of Adamic language to equal what can be written far more concisely on one page of English language.

[Areabird]

The 24 gold plates of Ether also contained the entire sealed portion of the BOM, the account given to the Brother of Jared of the beginning of the world to the end. What we have is a very very small abridgment by Moroni of the same record.

Cheers.

24 plates in the book of Ether

2/3 of the 24 plates of Ether were sealed up (do I understand this correctly? Or were the 24 plates 1/3 of the total?)

16 plates are sealed, 8 plates were translated

The 8 plates resulted in 31 pages in english

The rest of the BOM is 531 pages in english -- assuming Adamic and Reformed Egyptian take up the same amount of space on an alloy plate (it's not impossible therefore plausible therefore likely)

1 Ether plate = 3.875 pages of English, therefore 531 pages/3.875 = 137 plates for the BOM

16 sealed plates + 8 Ether plates + 137 BOM plates = 161 plates

Or if I misunderstood your post then perhaps it is:

24 plates in the book of Ether

2/3 of the plates in the BOM were sealed, therefore the 1/3 unsealed portion was 531 pages

The total pagesfor the BOM would then be 1,593 pages of English

Dividing by 3.875 we get 411 plates in the BOM

411 BOM plates + 24 Ether plates = 435 plates, each about the thickness of a sheet of tin

If my assumptions are off base please let me know. I'm trying to figure out how it could be such a physically small book.

[LeSellers]

24 plates in the book of Ether

NO!!!. The twenty-four plates that Limhi's explorers found were not the book of Ether as we have it in the Book of Mormon. They were Moroni's source material for his abridgment/translation. There is absolutely no justification for correlating the twenty-four plates with any amount of the English translation of the book of Ether.

Lehi

[Avatar4321]

NO!!!. The twenty-four plates that Limhi's explorers found were not the book of Ether as we have it in the Book of Mormon. They were Moroni's source material for his abridgment/translation. There is absolutely no reason to correlate the twenty-four plates with any amount of the English translation of the book of Ether.

Lehi

You know, its really not hard to figure out what your saying. I cant for the life of me determine why people are havng such a hard time with it.

Seriously, if this is the argument they are making for the Book of Mormon being false, they really need to rethink this.

[Areabird]

NO!!!. The twenty-four plates that Limhi's explorers found were not the book of Ether as we have it in the Book of Mormon. They were Moroni's source material for his abridgment/translation. There is absolutely no justification for correlating the twenty-four plates with any amount of the English translation of the book of Ether.

Lehi

Why not? If he used 24 plates for his source material, and we have 31 pages of english, why is it incorrect to assume there is some type of numerical correlation?

How could there not be a correlation?

[ERayR]

Why not? If he used 24 plates for his source material, and we have 31 pages of english, why is it incorrect to assume there is some type of numerical correlation?

How could there not be a correlation?

Listen close. Because Moroni abridged the 24 Jaradite plates. There is no way of knowing how many plates the abridgement took up. The abridgement of Moroni may have been only 1 plate or 1/2 or 3 or?

[LeSellers]

Why not? If he used 24 plates for his source material, and we have 31 pages of english, why is it incorrect to assume there is some type of numerical correlation?

Here's what Moroni said:

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether. 3 And as I suppose that the first part of this record, which speaks concerning the creation of the world, and also of Adam, and an account from that time even to the great tower, and whatsoever things transpired among the children of men until that time, is had among the Jewsâ?? 4 Therefore I do not write those things which transpired from the days of Adam until that time; but they are had upon the plates; and whoso findeth them, the same will have power that he may get the full account. 5 But behold, I give not the full account, but a part of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed.

So, at the very least, there was a sizable portion of the plates he didn't bother to translate. That would have included nearly ~2,000 years of the ~3,500 the plates, something approaching half.

13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out; and he hid himself in the cavity of a rock by day, and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.

27 And now, my son, I command you that ye retain all their oaths, and their covenants, and their agreements in their secret abominations; yea, and all their signs and their wonders ye shall keep from this people, that they know them not, lest peradventure they should fall into darkness also and be destroyed.

...

29 Therefore ye shall keep these secret plans of their oaths and their covenants from this people, and only their wickedness and their murders and their abominations shall ye make known unto them; and ye shall teach them to abhor such wickedness and abominations and murders; and ye shall also teach them that these people were destroyed on account of their wickedness and abominations and their murders.

There were also things that had been recorded by Ether and his predecessors that Moroni was not allowed to translate. Partly because of direct commandment of the Lord, and partly because of indirect commandment of th Lord.

Now if we look at the account we have, there are only three "stories" with any depth: Jared and Mahonri's trek, Akish and his wife's coup d'etat, and Coriantumr's final battle. Missing entirely are the records of the many prophets; we have only the briefest of glances at them. The stories we do have show us the detail we might expect were we to have the full record.

Moroni had a goal when he translated the Limhi plates: to show that the secret combinations of the devil that had destroyed his civilization were also the source of the ruin of the Jaredites. That's all he covered (with the exception of the foundation material). There is no justification at all for assuming that Moroni's abridgment was anything remotely close to the entire record of Ether.

There is one additional thing we might take from this, however: All of the 3,500-year history included in the original Ether fit onto 24 plates. To envision the 1,000-year of the Nephites requiring only 20~30 plates is hardly inconsistent.

Lehi

[Mortal Man]

Here's what Moroni said...

That's a pretty good answer LeSellers. I'll go along with your 1 plate = many English pages hypothesis. But how do you justify such a condensation when all known forms of Egyptian require more space to express a concept than their English counterparts?

[LeSellers]

That's a pretty good answer LeSellers.

Shucks. You can call me "Lehi", just as my mother-in-law does.

I'll go along with your 1 plate = many English pages hypothesis. But how do you justify such a condensation when all known forms of Egyptian require more space to express a concept than their English counterparts?

I'd have to call you on that. Watch:

Here's an English sentence.

Voici une phrase en Fran

[zerinus]

Here's what Moroni said: So, at the very least, there was a sizable portion of the plates he didn't bother to translate. That would have included nearly ~2,000 years of the ~3,500 the plates, something approaching half.

There were also things that had been recorded by Ether and his predecessors that Moroni was not allowed to translate. Partly because of direct commandment of the Lord, and partly because of indirect commandment of th Lord.

Now if we look at the account we have, there are only three "stories" with any depth: Jared and Mahonri's trek, Akish and his wife's coup d'etat, and Coriantumr's final battle. Missing entirely are the records of the many prophets; we have only the briefest of glances at them. The stories we do have show us the detail we might expect were we to have the full record.

Moroni had a goal when he translated the Limhi plates: to show that the secret combinations of the devil that had destroyed his civilization were also the source of the ruin of the Jaredites. That's all he covered (with the exception of the foundation material). There is no justification at all for assuming that Moroni's abridgment was anything remotely close to the entire record of Ether.

There is one additional thing we might take from this, however: All of the 3,500-year history included in the original Ether fit onto 24 plates. To envision the 1,000-year of the Nephites requiring only 20~30 plates is hardly inconsistent.

Lehi

The extent of the abridgement was more than those verses suggest, according to this verse:

Ether 15

:

33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (

and the hundredth part I have not written

) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

zerinus

[LeSellers]

Ether 15:33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (

and the hundredth part I have not written

) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

Thanks. I only scanned the book of Ether, and missed this one.

Lehi

[Areabird]

Here's what Moroni said: So, at the very least, there was a sizable portion of the plates he didn't bother to translate. That would have included nearly ~2,000 years of the ~3,500 the plates, something approaching half.

There were also things that had been recorded by Ether and his predecessors that Moroni was not allowed to translate. Partly because of direct commandment of the Lord, and partly because of indirect commandment of th Lord.

...There is no justification at all for assuming that Moroni's abridgment was anything remotely close to the entire record of Ether.

There is one additional thing we might take from this, however: All of the 3,500-year history included in the original Ether fit onto 24 plates. To envision the 1,000-year of the Nephites requiring only 20~30 plates is hardly inconsistent.

Lehi

Okay, I think I follow now. Ether covered 3,500 years of history and was written on just 24 plates. Assuming that Reformed Egyptian and the Adamic(?) language took generally the same amount of space to write similar words/ideas/stories/etc. then 1,000 years of Nephite history would probably take far less plates to record. So a liberal guess might be that its possible it took just as many pages as Ether (24 plates), and a conservative guess might be that it took only perhaps 10-12 plates.

Am I following you correctly now?

[LeSellers]

Okay, I think I follow now. Ether covered 3,500 years of history and was written on just 24 plates. Assuming that Reformed Egyptian and the Adamic(?) language took generally the same amount of space to write similar words/ideas/stories/etc. then 1,000 years of Nephite history would probably take far less plates to record. So a liberal guess might be that its possible it took just as many pages as Ether (24 plates), and a conservative guess might be that it took only perhaps 10-12 plates.

Am I following you correctly now?

Assuming the "it" emphasized above means "the text of the Book of Mormon", yes, I think you have it.

Lehi

[Areabird]

As you pointed out it would be a rare case that two languages would result in a word for word translation in terms of number of words, sentences, etc. And as you pointed out, this is even more difficult when comparing a language like English to a language that primarily uses hieroglyphics.

But, shouldn't it be possible to find a reliable source who could give us an idea of how many Egyptian hieroglyphs one could place on a 6" by 8" plate, and what the approximate number of English words that would equate to is? We could even adjust the ratio up or down based on whether we think Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics were smaller or larger than plain old Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Sound like a plan?

[LeSellers]

shouldn't it be possible to find a reliable source who could give us an idea of how many Egyptian hieroglyphs one could place on a 6" by 8" plate, and what the approximate number of English words that would equate to is? We could even adjust the ratio up or down based on whether we think Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics were smaller or larger than plain old Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Your proposal would be great if it didn't have so many unknown factors.

We do not know what sort of Egyptian characters (not necessarily hieroglyphs,

[Urloony]

But, shouldn't it be possible to find a reliable source who could give us an idea of how many Egyptian hieroglyphs one could place on a 6" by 8" plate, and what the approximate number of English words that would equate to is?

Probably

We could even adjust the ratio up or down based on whether we think Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics were smaller or larger than plain old Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Regardless of the size or design of the reformed egyption, which we have images of, it's not really about the size of the glyphs at all. We have no idea how many words were translated from each glyph.

Sound like a plan?

Back to the drawing board.

[Areabird]

Probably

Regardless of the size or design of the reformed egyption, which we have images of, it's not really about the size of the glyphs at all. We have no idea how many words were translated from each glyph.

Back to the drawing board.

Surely we can make an educated guess. For instance, it's highly unlikely that a single glyph would equate to 100 words, right? It's reformed Egyptian, so it must be similar to Egyptian or else why call it a form of Egyptian at all?

[MatthewG]

Easy.... It's the same way Bill Ayers likely "edited/wrote" one of Obama's books....

Bitter much? Never loose a chance to take a swipe at the guy just because grandpa didn't win?

[Areabird]

Probably

Regardless of the size or design of the reformed egyption, which we have images of, it's not really about the size of the glyphs at all. We have no idea how many words were translated from each glyph.

Back to the drawing board.

I just went to this site: http://www.virtualsecrets.com/egyptian.html

It certainly doesn't do a word for word translation, so you have to use key words. So type in something like "My parents good" (as in born of goodly parents) and see how many glyphs it takes, how detailed those glyphs are, and remember that the plates were only about 6"x8" in area. Obviously this isn't evidence of anything, but it is something to think about. Would it really be possible to squeeze enough heiroglyphics onto a dozen plates to equal a few hundred pages of english text? It just doesn't seem possible to me. What about you?

[ERayR]

Surely we can make an educated guess. For instance, it's highly unlikely that a single glyph would equate to 100 words, right? It's reformed Egyptian, so it must be similar to Egyptian or else why call it a form of Egyptian at all?

Why?

[Areabird]

Why?

There are a number of free websites that allow you to type in a word in english and see what the equivalent glyphs are. Take a look and you will see that there isn't a 1:100 ratio of glyph to englsh words.

Have you found a different example?

[ERayR]

There are a number of free websites that allow you to type in a word in english and see what the equivalent glyphs are. Take a look and you will see that there isn't a 1:100 ratio of glyph to englsh words.

Have you found a different example?

No it is just that this whole exercise is meaningless.