'The Economist' Says That Skepticism And Ridicule Towards Mormonism Is "Weird"

[bluebell]

Nothing is wrong with acknowledging these things, IMO. In fact, as much as I miss those things of Catholicism, I find much more to love in the Church of Jesus Christ, most importantly (for me) feeling the Spirit strongly in the temple, with the beautiful surroundings therein.

I agree.

Obviously, i'm LDS for a reason-because i find more to love in the LDS church than in any other religion-but there are things in other churches that i have 'holy envy' for.

One thing i love some of the Catholic churches i've been in (not all) is the reverence for the chapel-people talk in hushed tones or not at all and there is an atmosphere that says 'we worship God in here' regardless of whether or not a church service is currently occurring.

What i dislike about LDS chapels is the way many of the members treat them. There is no reverence before sacrament meeting. There is no quiet contemplation or worshipping of God going on before sacrament starts in any of the dozen wards i have been a member of. It's loud and business like (in that people are busy 'taking care of business', whatever it might be, before the service starts).

Yes, there is an emphasis on sincere prayer in the LDS faith, obviously, but i envy the Muslim members devotion to prayer-that they willingly get up at the crack of dawn, and stop what they are doing through-out the day, to physically manifest their devotion to God through prayer. As LDS, the church teaches that devotion, but i think that many members, myself included, struggle with even saying two prayers a day and being sincere and focused during them, let alone much else.

It's not about the LDS church lacking teachings or doctrine, but just the different way that we approach things and how i think sometimes members of other churches approach doctrine in a better way than members of the LDS church do.

[ChristKnight]

I agree.

Obviously, i'm LDS for a reason-because i find more to love in the LDS church than in any other religion-but there are things in other churches that i have 'holy envy' for.

Yes, 'holy envy'. And I know we're not alone in that, as over the years I've seen many a thread over at Catholic Answers Forum about things various Catholics "envy" about other churches and religions, including Mormonism.

One thing i love some of the Catholic churches i've been in (not all) is the reverence for the chapel-people talk in hushed tones or not at all and there is an atmosphere that says 'we worship God in here' regardless of whether or not a church service is currently occurring.

What i dislike about LDS chapels is the way many of the members treat them. There is no reverence before sacrament meeting. There is no quiet contemplation or worshipping of God going on before sacrament starts in any of the dozen wards i have been a member of. It's loud and business like (in that people are busy 'taking care of business', whatever it might be, before the service starts).

I agree with you. I think there is of course a direct parallel between how Catholics treat their parishes and how Latter-day Saints treat our temples. Catholics believe that God is literally present in every Catholic parish in the Eucharist (i.e. the Real Presence of Jesus). Latter-day Saints believe that temples are literally houses of God, and His Spirit is actually present there (I've read through many dedicatory prayers that invoke God's presence to be in the temple continuously).

I do wish there was more reverence before Sacrament Meeting in the chapel. I was reading this convert's guide book, and it talks about how all the socializing should occur in the foyer so that when you enter the chapel, it's all over and you can prepare for the Sacrament. Sadly this doesn't seem to happen, at least in my limited experience.

Yes, there is an emphasis on sincere prayer in the LDS faith, obviously, but i envy the Muslim members devotion to prayer-that they willingly get up at the crack of dawn, and stop what they are doing through-out the day, to physically manifest their devotion to God through prayer. As LDS, the church teaches that devotion, but i think that many members, myself included, struggle with even saying two prayers a day and being sincere and focused during them, let alone much else.

I agree with that.

It's not about the LDS church lacking teachings or doctrine, but just the different way that we approach things and how i think sometimes members of other churches approach doctrine in a better way than members of the LDS church do.

Yes, true. And I think it's important to realize that there are people from those other churches and religions have also expressed "holy envy" for the Church of Jesus Christ as well.

[emeliza]

"Holy Envy" is a good thing to have in many respects. It means you want to try harder to have a better relationship and follow God better. You see where someone or another group does something well in their faith and you would like to figure out how you can as well. Not necessarily by following a different doctrine, but by maybe changing some of the processes in your own life.

I don't know why Romney said what he did. I don't know if it was written by him to appeal to those listing or if it is truly how he feels. I do know that I also agree with it.

[Calm]

So I don't think that Romney is denying that these things are in our own faith. They are there, just in a different way. Yes we have a commitment to prayer. Romney was perhaps talking about the Muslim commitment to praying 5 times a day at a minimum. Yes we have profound ceremony, however Romney was perhaps talking about the "pageantry" of the Mass with chanting, incense, candles, sitting/standing/kneeling, etc. (noting that not all Masses have incense or chanting) in comparison to the more simple Sacrament Meeting. Nothing is wrong with acknowledging these things, IMO.

I read it this way as well, CK.

[frankenstein]

It's not about the LDS church lacking teachings or doctrine, but just the different way that we approach things and how i think sometimes members of other churches approach doctrine in a better way than members of the LDS church do.

that makes more sense. Which is why I suggested Romney might be speaking of his version of being a LDS rather than speaking the LDS faith as a whole.

Romney might lack in those areas himself, but the LDS faith does not lack the things Romney lacks.

[Jaybear]

And you know this . . . how, exactly?

Dan,

Since I can't read minds, and don't claim to "know" unknowable things via spiritual revelation, I think its safe for you to assume that I was expressing my opinion.

If you want to know why I believe he is being insincere, its because, among other things;

1. He is a politician;

2. He was running for office;

3. He desperately needed to woo over religious voters to win the primary;

4. He has a reputation for telling people what they want to hear, ie telling gays that he would be a better advocate for gay rights than Ted Kennedy, telling women in Mass, he supports abortion rights;

5. He covered every major denomination. He even had to stretch to say something nice about the Pentecostals (tenderness of spirit);

6. Because I accepted his statement at face value, I would have to believe that Romney believes his religion or members of his faith lacks:

--- approachability of God in the prayers

--- tenderness of spirit

--- confident independence

--- ancient traditions,unchanged through the ages,

--- commitment to frequent prayer.

You are welcome to believe that he was speaking with heartfelt sincerity.

[Nofear]

You are welcome to believe that he was speaking with heartfelt sincerity.

Speaking of myself, since I sincerely believe that there are aspects of worship among other faiths that are worthy of emulation by some or all Latter-day Saints and even potentially worth institutionalizing in my Church, I can empathize with Romney's statement and hence more willing to believe that he is sincere. That sincerity does not mean the comment was not also politically motivated. Sincerity and political expediency are not always mutually exclusive.

As you probably well know, how we choose to interpret the words of others is more often a reflection of our own biases than anything else. Are you aware of how that sentiment is potentially being manifested in your posts in this thread? Is it what you would like? [rhetorical questions]

[bluebell]

that makes more sense. Which is why I suggested Romney might be speaking of his version of being a LDS rather than speaking the LDS faith as a whole.

Romney might lack in those areas himself, but the LDS faith does not lack the things Romney lacks.

I can't speak for romney, but in explaining my own words better-

I think the issue is that the LDS culture doesn't always follow LDS doctrine and i believe there are other churches who's culture follows certain doctrines better than ours does.

It has nothing to do with 'romney's version of being LDS, my version of being LDS, or your version of being LDS-in my view, it's the culture of being LDS and how sometimes it doesn't match the doctrine that is central to the issue.

[Jaybear]

As you probably well know, how we choose to interpret the words of others is more often a reflection of our own biases than anything else.

Yes, I am acutely aware that with Romney being a prominent conservative Mormon, staunch defenders of the LDS faith are more likely to give Romney the benefit of the doubt, that they would likely extend to other politicians under similar circumstances. That is bias for you.

If you think my opinion is colored by the fact that Romney is mormon, you are mistaken. When Huntsman, another prominent Mormon politician was being interviewed about his faith recently, I thought he answered the questions far more openly and sincerely than a politician should.

Here, by contrast is a recent example of Romney's lack of candor regarding his personal beliefs:

"Do you personally think homosexuality is a sin?" Morgan asked, well aware of Romney's Mormon faith.

"Nice try," Romney answered. "It's a valid question and my answer is nice try."

Are you aware of how that sentiment is potentially being manifested in your posts in this thread?

No. Because I don't know what you mean by "that sentiment".

[Nofear]

Yes, I am acutely aware that with Romney being a prominent conservative Mormon, staunch defenders of the LDS faith are more likely to give Romney the benefit of the doubt, that they would likely extend to other politicians under similar circumstances. That is bias for you.

Conservative Mormons do indeed tend to be more biased in viewing other faiths favorably (see American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us). We also think very highly of our own faith. I'm ok with both biases.

If you think my opinion is colored by the fact that Romney is mormon, you are mistaken. When Huntsman, another prominent Mormon politician was being interviewed about his faith recently, I thought he answered the questions far more openly and sincerely than a politician should.

Here, by contrast is a recent example of Romney's lack of candor regarding his personal beliefs:

"Do you personally think homosexuality is a sin?" Morgan asked, well aware of Romney's Mormon faith.

"Nice try," Romney answered. "It's a valid question and my answer is nice try."

The proper context to understand that statement follows (source):

"I separate quite distinctly matters of personal faith from the leadership that one has in a political sense," he told Morgan. The CNN journalist immediately reacted, "Can you do that?" "Absolutely," Romney insisted. "You don't begin to apply the doctrines of a religion to a responsibility for guiding a nation or for guiding a state."

I imagine we'll both interpret this sentiment differently according to the rules of confirmation bias.

No. Because I don't know what you mean by "that sentiment".

The antecedent of "that sentiment" is: "how we choose to interpret the words of others is more often a reflection of our own biases than anything else".

[Analytics]

At the bottom of the article, he gives his answer to the question why people like don’t Mormons:

There are aspects of Mormonism that are objectionable, but not more so than we see in other religions. For example, they do a lot of missionary work, which some people find offensive, but that's not unique to the Latter-Day Saints. And some Mormon fundamentalists display grotesque personal behaviour, but that's true of some fundamentalist anybodies. The biggest difference between Mormonism and other widespread world religions is that Mormonism is relatively new; that may contribute to the scepticism about it, which contributes to the faith's insularity, which contributes to additional scepticism, and so on.

I disagree.

Human beings are tribal by nature—we naturally delimit who are members of our tribe and who are not, and then proceed to exaggerate in our own minds the virtue of those who are with us and the vices of those who are against us. And a clear indication that somebody isn’t of your tribe is when they knock on your door with the message that you need to leave your religious heritage and join theirs in order to get right with God.

The reason mainstream Americans don’t like Mormons is the same reason they hesitate to recognize Mormons as Christians: tribal instinct.

[Jaybear]

Conservative Mormons do indeed tend to be more biased in viewing other faiths favorably (see American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us). We also think very highly of our own faith. I'm ok with both biases.

Sorry, but I was referring to conservative Mormons perception of conservative mormon politicians, not their perception of other faiths.

As for conservative Mormons viewing other faith favorably. Nah. In fact, its certainly not one that I would make. When was the last time a politician of any other faith than was elected to statewide office in Utah? I can't even think of one.

I imagine we'll both interpret this sentiment differently according to the rules of confirmation bias.

Yes, that a fair statement.

[Nofear]

As for conservative Mormons viewing other faith favorably. Nah.

Your personal opinion, while not factually accurate, would be consistent with the statistical findings of American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.

Mormons like everyone else, while most everyone else dislikes Mormons. Jews are the exception, as they give Mormons a net positive rating. (This suggests that there is a perceived commonality, given that they are both minority religions.)

Though, I have no expectation that a single data point would find itself near the median. Given your better-than-average familiarity with Mormonism I'll intuitively attribute your negative biases to other causes than those that arise for the normal"average" American.

[KevinG]

Most other small religions in America don't have the signature salespeople out bothering the neighborhood. Not to mention the Christians don't think you're Christian so they don't like you and think you're poseurs. {I'm an atheist and thus generally not trusted by anyone, but those are two important reasons.)

You don't live in my neighborhood. The Baptists, Evangelicals and Jehovahs Witnesses visit me more than the missionaries and home teachers combined.

[bluebell]

You don't live in my neighborhood. The Baptists, Evangelicals and Jehovahs Witnesses visit me more than the missionaries and home teachers combined.

I think part of the problem is that most people, when they see two people on their door and hear they want to talk about religion, just assume they are either JW or LDS. We were confused with the JW's many times when i was serving and even after telling them who we were, it didn't usually register since they were busy closing the door at the time.

I think a lot of people who don't belong to a proselyting church, would be surprised to find out that there are many protestant denominations that also go door to door.

[Bond...James Bond]

You don't live in my neighborhood. The Baptists, Evangelicals and Jehovahs Witnesses visit me more than the missionaries and home teachers combined.

My sympathies go out to you. I recommend the water hose or answering the door with a bloody ax to scare them off. Also works on politicians canvassing for votes or campaign workers looking for money.

[Messenger]

If there is someone like Romney (who is Mormon) that does end up holding a major public office, can you imagine the onslaught of mormon gossip that would ensue? Heh, Even if he is a good man, and follows Mormon Doctrine in his own personal life, there will always be 'Hens in the chicken coup' that would take offense over the tiniest and inconsequencial decision he makes. I fear our worst will be revealed to the world.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Here

My boss who is Catholic says he does not understand what a man’s faith has to do with anything. He of course noted Kennedy’s troubles with this during his bid for election.

[Storm Rider]

I am glad they took the time for the article, thought it is a shame that the author lumped polygamist with mormons. Though I guess we cant have our cake and eat it too.

Though Romneys quote in the article is a bit disappointing.

"And in every faith I have come to know, there are features I wish were in my own: I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the Evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims. As I travel across the country and see our towns and cities, I am always moved by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to heaven, reminding us of the source of life's blessings."

It appears Romney does not know his religion.

I just wish more LDS would have the ability to say words similar to this. All are given a degree of light and truth; why would we not admire truth where it is found?

[urroner]

Lets not overthink it. Romney is a politician. He was just pandering to people of other faiths.

Yes, let's not over think this, especially with regards to Jaybear's comment. He's just pandering to people who don't like the Mormon Church and he always likes getting a dig in at the Church whenever it's possible. Y'all know how it goes.

[Jeff K.]

It is amazing how the view others have of Mormons is so much like the view they have of Jews. As one teacher told me "Mormons are ok in the singular, but weird as a group". I have heard the same said of Jews, that by themselves they are ok, but as a group you should watch out for them. I think this is in part because Mormons greet and help each other so willingly, and so sometimes poeple view this as an exclusionary or clannish nature. Are others so disengaged from each other that such help to others is seen as "strange" and therefore alien or even cultish?

I cannot say, and despite the angry self serving attacks upon church members who seek to obtain any office or place of business or even remain employed in some cases, the church remains true, and we as Latter-day Saints will not deny it. Let those on the outside who see our friendship and understanding of the gospel continue to rage. We have the spirit of God, they just have their anger.