The Problem Of Pain

[Kenngo1969]

... He freed Ammon from a prison and chains, but he couldn't pop the trunk on a Buick?

As has already been pointed out, there's a lot of suffering He didn't prevent even in the Scriptures.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

The "right" gospel answers are often the tinkling cymbols and sounding brass to those who suffer innocently.

Big UP!

Lamanite

With all due respect, your "righteous" indignation is misplaced. Their suffering is between them and God; your suffering is between you and God. Don't presume to speak on their behalf. They already have an Intermediary.

[changed]

when "innocents" are victimized by others:

1.) often it changes the heart of the abuser to become a better person

there were many whose hearts had swollen in them for those of their brethren who had fallen under the sword, for they repented of the things which they had done...the people of God were joined that day by more than the number who had been slain; and those who had been slain were righteous people, therefore we have no reason to doubt but what they were saved.~ Alma 24:24 - 26

2. when the heart of the abuser is not changed, at least they are shown for who they are (I might have thought that, but I would have never actually done that - states the abuser unless allowed to actually act and show themselves for who they are)

And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just;Alma 14:10 - 11

3. in the case of natural disaster/illness - part of the reason we come here is to gain knowledge of good and evil, if there are not enough evil people around, then we gain knowledge of evil through our environment... When I pray - considering different trials - I pray that my trials will be of the natural disaster / illness variety because I do not want to harbor evil thoughts of another person... we are each refined, beyond the veil we will see the big picture...

[phaedrus ut]

Of course I express my limited understanding, foresight, and overall ignorance relative to God's. I do not understand. My heart hurts for the needless suffering of certain people in certain situations. I don't understand. And I can't reconcile the God of I love; the God I know through Mormonism- with the suffering of millions of his children throughout the world.

Lamanite

It's a difficult problem that I've never read a satisfactory answer for. I think about it in philosophical arguments like the omnipotence paradox. Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?

Somehow God is good and benevolent yet he allows evil and suffering to exist in the world. God is all-good yet some of his actions appear evil like killing innocent children in the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14. It doesn't make sense to me.

My best understanding of the problem came with this quote from Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

Epicurus

Phaedrus

[changed]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

the above is simplified, and avoiding the point

... the war in heaven was over agency... we are not robots which can just be re-programmed, what is the greater evil, to leave us all unformed, uncreated, to wallow in comfortable mud? or to allow us the fires necessary to refine us?

there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved ~ Alma 38:9

if there was an easier less painful way, God would have used it....

we are refined from the inside out... experience refines us. It's not God's fault, God is cleaning up a mess He did not make... we are given the experiences needed to refine us, hard to admit that this is what it takes, but apparently this is what it takes.

Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?

could he microwave a burrito sooo hot that he could not eat it?

can you make a square circle? can you "force" someone to become refined without taking away their agency? After the refining process is over - when we are able to see the final products, I think we will all agree that God did a pretty good job considering what He had to work with..

Edited June 21, 2011 by changed

[Mark Beesley]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, so if what I am about to write has already been touched upon, please excuse me.

What I gathered from the opening post is that God could, if He chose to do so, alleviate some of the sufferering of innocents in the world without damaging the principle of free agency. The focus seems to be on the innocents who suffer.

Let us suppose, for a while, that we lieved in a world where the only suffering that occured resulted from the three areas identified by the OP: 1. Our own choices; 2. Choices of others; and 3. God's need to provided a specialized test for someone. The means there would be no natural disasters that: 1. Cause suffering; and 2. Create an opportunity for mankind to rise about selfish interests and come to the aid of others. See where I am going witth this?

While it may be that what we see as needless suffering could be alleviaed by God without doing damage to the free agency of the person suffering, He cannot act without impinging on the free agency of others WHOSE OBLIGATION, DUTY, AND STEWARDSHIP IT IS TO ALLEVIATE SUFFERING. Read your Old Testament again. Why does God get so upset with Israel and Judah? Idol worship and the like were secondary to their primary offense--a failure to care for the widows and orphans.

We are on the earth, not so much to be tested to see how well we can avoid sin, but to see how well we will care for each other. So, the next time you see the suffering of innocents, weep not for their suffering but for the thoughtlessness of mankind which allows such sufferering to persist.

[Darth_Bill]

I think there is truth there, but doesn't answer the 2 year old with cancer. It doesn't answer....much of anything on the OP. The solution of suffering isn't others. Suffering happens.

[Lamanite]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, so if what I am about to write has already been touched upon, please excuse me.

What I gathered from the opening post is that God could, if He chose to do so, alleviate some of the sufferering of innocents in the world without damaging the principle of free agency. The focus seems to be on the innocents who suffer.

Let us suppose, for a while, that we lieved in a world where the only suffering that occured resulted from the three areas identified by the OP: 1. Our own choices; 2. Choices of others; and 3. God's need to provided a specialized test for someone. The means there would be no natural disasters that: 1. Cause suffering; and 2. Create an opportunity for mankind to rise about selfish interests and come to the aid of others. See where I am going witth this?

While it may be that what we see as needless suffering could be alleviaed by God without doing damage to the free agency of the person suffering, He cannot act without impinging on the free agency of others WHOSE OBLIGATION, DUTY, AND STEWARDSHIP IT IS TO ALLEVIATE SUFFERING. Read your Old Testament again. Why does God get so upset with Israel and Judah? Idol worship and the like were secondary to their primary offense--a failure to care for the widows and orphans.

We are on the earth, not so much to be tested to see how well we can avoid sin, but to see how well we will care for each other. So, the next time you see the suffering of innocents, weep not for their suffering but for the thoughtlessness of mankind which allows such sufferering to persist.

No natural disaster happened in South Jordan today and yet I found a way to serve and love a brother whose wife just left him. There is no need for innocent suffering IMO

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Luigi]

can you make a square circle? can you "force" someone to become refined without taking away their agency? After the refining process is over - when we are able to see the final products, I think we will all agree that God did a pretty good job considering what He had to work with..

'Considering what He had to work with'? Didn't HE make what he had to work with? Granted according to LDS doctrine we always existed in some form but nonetheless it still begs who made the rules of refining? Who created a universe in which the only way to become happy and fulfilled for all eternity is to live a life on a planet full of pain and suffering and where death, for most observers, appears final? Yet the eternal reward and ultimate refining is based in having faith in a belief system which requires complete dismissal of that observation and innumerable other unobservable phenomenon. I can think of lots of ways God could still offer us alternatives-ie our ability to choose-without all the booby traps to get to eternal life.

[phaedrus ut]

... the war in heaven was over agency...

How do you have a war against an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God being with perfect knowledge of eternity? What are the weapons? How is it possible for God to lose such a war? How is it possible for 1/3 of Gods created beings to be so completely ignorant of his knowledge, power, and being? Would a omniscient God create such obviously imperfect souls? And if he made them that way is what they're doing really wrong?

Phaedrus

Edited June 21, 2011 by phaedrus ut

[HeatherAnn]

Lamanite,

I feel for you & others who have suffered as children.

My goal is that as I heal, I can help others heal... little by little.

To reply to your concern about pain...

God IS LOVE. God is "I AM." Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you."

IMO, Love is wanting & striving for what we think is the highest good, through trial & error. As we learn more, we love ourselves & others better. Sometimes, we're short sighted & that translates to what we want now (which often causes extra unnecessary pain), instead of sacrificing immediate gratification for what is the highest good.

As mentioned, sometimes the pain we endure can increase our understanding, empathy & capacity to love.

Love & prayers.

How do you have a war against an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God being with perfect knowledge of eternity? What are the weapons? How is it possible for God to lose such a war? How is it possible for 1/3 of Gods created beings to be so completely ignorant of his knowledge, power, and being? Would a omniscient God create such obviously imperfect souls? And if he made them that way is what they're doing really wrong?

Great questions, Phaedrus!

Who was it that said something about the greatest battle is not on the battlefield, but in principles & in the hearts of men & women?

God created everything - including "imperfection" along with "perfection."

Being imperfect isn't really "wrong" - except in relation to circumstances.

IE: If I play a "wrong" note on the piano, the note in itself isn't wrong, only in relation to the other notes.

Live & LEARN... to love better... to learn what is the highest good, through both intellect & intuition.

Edited June 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[changed]

'Considering what He had to work with'? Didn't HE make what he had to work with? Granted according to LDS doctrine we always existed in some form but nonetheless it still begs who made the rules of refining? Who created a universe in which the only way to become happy and fulfilled for all eternity is to live a life on a planet full of pain and suffering and where death, for most observers, appears final? Yet the eternal reward and ultimate refining is based in having faith in a belief system which requires complete dismissal of that observation and innumerable other unobservable phenomenon. I can think of lots of ways God could still offer us alternatives-ie our ability to choose-without all the booby traps to get to eternal life.

God knows what love is, but I'm not sure that He invented the concept of love... I think truth exists independently of God...

If God can "cease to be God" (and Alma 42 outlines how God could cease to be God if He did not "walk the walk") - it seems that God did not make the rules, but abides by them...that His power comes through perfect adherence to the rules - like an athlete gains strength and becomes the strongest of all through a very strict diet/exercise etc. etc. I'm not sure that anyone made the rules - the concepts of love, being selfless, sacrifice - perhaps these truths are as old as all of us?

Edited June 21, 2011 by changed

[changed]

How do you have a war against an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God being with perfect knowledge of eternity? What are the weapons? How is it possible for God to lose such a war? How is it possible for 1/3 of Gods created beings to be so completely ignorant of his knowledge, power, and being? Would a omniscient God create such obviously imperfect souls? And if he made them that way is what they're doing really wrong?

Phaedrus

weapons are agency of coarse.

God did not make us -

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

God adopted us:

(New Testament | Romans 8:15)

the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption = the process of taking care of someone who you did not create... Jesus is the "only" begotten - the only one, that means the rest of us were not begotten... adopted... He's cleaning up a mess He did not make, and He is doing it without taking away anyone's agency... (taking away agency would be worse than rape)...

love - robots cannot love

charity/kindness - these are attributes which we must learn for ourself. You cannot force anyone to be happy or loving or kind - you can only give them the experiences needed to teach them how... experiences which make us hate evil, and love good...

the theory of relativity, opposition in all things...

offer someone a glass of water, and they might refuse it, they might prefer juice instead, or they might not be thirsty... then take the same glass of water, and offer it to someone who just ran a race across the desert - only after running across the desert do you appreciate the water for what it is... without the opposition, the true value of a thing is not appreciated/understood...

Edited June 21, 2011 by changed

[Luigi]

God knows what love is, but I'm not sure that He invented the concept of love... I think truth exists independently of God...

If God can "cease to be God" (and Alma 42 outlines how God could cease to be God if He did not "walk the walk") - it seems that God did not make the rules, but abides by them...that His power comes through perfect adherence to the rules - like an athlete gains strength and becomes the strongest of all through a very strict diet/exercise etc. etc. I'm not sure that anyone made the rules - the concepts of love, being selfless, sacrifice - perhaps these truths are as old as all of us?

How unfortunate. I suppose that means God isn't as cruel as He sometimes seems-He's just doing the best He can in the rather bizarre faith-based universe He's stuck in like the rest of us. Apparently this infinite faith-based system requires the growth of intelligences through testing them in a finite mortal experience after erasing their memory and taking away any observable evidence of their existence prior to or after that finite mortal experience.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Luigi

[changed]

How unfortunate. I suppose that means God isn't as cruel as He sometimes seems-He's just doing the best He can

no, God is not as cruel as He at first seems...

if He were cleaning up a mess that He made, then He would be a hypocritical monster, but He is selflessly cleaning up a mess He did not make so... that means He is not a monster after all...

(Old Testament | Isaiah 64:8 )

8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

the potter did not make the clay...

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/5_creator.html

"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews...."

create is better translated as "transform"

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

7 I form the alight, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

should be:

I form the alight, and transform darkness: (transform darkness into light) I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.

in the rather bizarre faith-based universe He's stuck in like the rest of us. Apparently this infinite faith-based system requires the growth of intelligences through testing them in a finite mortal experience after erasing their memory and taking away any observable evidence of their existence prior to or after that finite mortal experience.

reminds me of a song... what if God was one of us? just a slob like all of us?... but then He really isn't a slob...

Adam "transgressed" rather than "sinned" because his memory was wiped... the veil makes us all innocent through ignorance ... God knew we would make mistakes, and He allows us to make them in innocence... it's the only forgivable way to progress/gain the experiences we need to understand ... you can tell someone something until you are blue in the face, and I'm sure we were told a lot of things before our spirit joined flesh here on Earth... but without the actual experience, the understanding is incomplete... the pain incomplete, the joy incomplete.. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy~2 Nephi 2:25

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,

Hath had elsewhere its setting,

And cometh from afar:

Not in entire forgetfulness,

And not in utter nakedness,

But trailing clouds of glory do we come

From God, who is our home

- Intimations of Immortality Wordsworth

Edited June 21, 2011 by changed

[phaedrus ut]

God did not make us -

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

God adopted us:

adoption = the process of taking care of someone who you did not create... Jesus is the "only" begotten - the only one, that means the rest of us were not begotten...

That seems to contradict D&C 77:24

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

And from the recent Melchizedek Priesthood Manual:

“God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement; the two together constituting the soul [see D&C 88:15]. The spirit of man is in the form of man, and the spirits of all creatures are in the likeness of their bodies. This was plainly taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith.("Sons and Daughters of the Eternal Father," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 331)

And on the current LDS.org Heavenly Father's Plan: God is our Father

Even though God is the Creator of all things, we enjoy a relationship with Him that is unique from all of His other creations. We are all His spirit children, literally the sons and daughters of God, and He has created us in His image.

Phaedrus

[changed]

That seems to contradict D&C 77:24

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

we are inhabitants, and we become spiritually begotten through baptism, so no contradiction.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

that is why baptism is such a big deal, it is where we literally become spiritually begotten children of Christ... the formation of the parent/child relationship takes on new meaning for those who have no actual beginning... "parent" is the one who starts your life? you can say that God has given us life because He has given us the ability to progress - without God, no progression, no growth, no real life... rock vs. plant, plants grow so we say they are "alive" .. if you don't grow, are you really alive? so God did give us life in that He gave us the ability to grow and progress - if we choose to progress, He is our Father.

And from the recent Melchizedek Priesthood Manual:

“God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement; the two together constituting the soul [see D&C 88:15]. The spirit of man is in the form of man, and the spirits of all creatures are in the likeness of their bodies. This was plainly taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith.("Sons and Daughters of the Eternal Father," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 331)

And on the current LDS.org Heavenly Father's Plan: God is our Father

Phaedrus

God transforms man into His own image.”

recall that when Joseph uses the word "create" he is defining that word as "transform"

see - the King Follett sermon as an example...

"Meaning of the Word Create

You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, “Doesn’t the Bible say he created the world?” And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

(conservation laws of thermodynamics...things change form, but do not blink in and out of existence...)

conclusion: http://lds.org/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng&query=King+Follett+Sermon

"the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: ...

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. ... Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. ..."

Edited June 22, 2011 by changed

[Nathair/|\]

That seems to contradict D&C 77:24

And from the recent Melchizedek Priesthood Manual:

“God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement; the two together constituting the soul [see D&C 88:15]. The spirit of man is in the form of man, and the spirits of all creatures are in the likeness of their bodies. This was plainly taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith.("Sons and Daughters of the Eternal Father," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 331)

And on the current LDS.org Heavenly Father's Plan: God is our Father

Phaedrus

I was taught in Sunday School and Aaronic Priesthood that before we were created as spirits, we existed eternally as ingelligences. That is, we were self-aware entities without a spirit body. What exactly that means, I don't know, but it does resolve the apparent contradiction that seems to concern you. God created our spirit bodies for us out of spirit material the same way He created our physical bodies, but before even that, we were ourselves. Whatever flaws we had then constitute the "mess he didn't make, but is cleaning up for us."

Assuming, of course, that I was taught correctly.

Yours under the ternary oaks,

Nathair /|\

[staccato]

I was taught in Sunday School and Aaronic Priesthood that before we were created as spirits, we existed eternally as ingelligences. That is, we were self-aware entities without a spirit body. What exactly that means, I don't know, but it does resolve the apparent contradiction that seems to concern you. God created our spirit bodies for us out of spirit material the same way He created our physical bodies, but before even that, we were ourselves. Whatever flaws we had then constitute the "mess he didn't make, but is cleaning up for us."

Assuming, of course, that I was taught correctly.

Yours under the ternary oaks,

Nathair /|\

Does God get to bear some of the responsibility for putting these wheels into motion? If God knows beforehand all of the suffering, and knows beforehand how few will actually achieve some degree of success in this trial of fire (which is not many), yet he chooses to create both the spiritual and then the physical body which is needed in order to endure such atrocities in life.......is he not the responsible entity here?

Of course he is.

[Nathair/|\]

Does God get to bear some of the responsibility for putting these wheels into motion? If God knows beforehand all of the suffering, and knows beforehand how few will actually achieve some degree of success in this trial of fire (which is not many), yet he chooses to create both the spiritual and then the physical body which is needed in order to endure such atrocities in life.......is he not the responsible entity here?

Of course he is.

I can't demonstrate it at the present time, but I suspect that whatever state we settle into after all is said and done, whether you are one of the fallen stars or one of the very few Sons of Perdition or one of the remaining two parts out of three who are assigned to a kingdom of glory, any end state is better than the state we were at before God set "the wheels in motion."

Yours under the progressing oaks,

Nathair /|\

(ps. Where do you get the idea that "not many" "will actually achieve some degree of success in this trial of fire?" }

[Darth_Bill]

ps. Where do you get the idea that "not many" "will actually achieve some degree of success in this trial of fire?"

I venture to guess that it depends on what your definition of success is. Christ said "Few there be that find it." and if you view of success is the CK, then probably not many will succeed.

[shalamabobbi]

I venture to guess that it depends on what your definition of success is. Christ said "Few there be that find it." and if you view of success is the CK, then probably not many will succeed.

He was referring to the gate of baptism and few there be that find that correct authorized gate in this life. But that does not equate with making it to the celestial kingdom since that opportunity exists beyond the grave by proxy work.

What matters is the direction in which you are moving, not the level you have attained, as that only has significance in relation to what you know. Only God knows and can judge how we follow the direction from our conscience. Only He knows and can judge what we know from personal revelation or lack thereof. It is not as cut and dried as many may believe it to be IMO.

[Darth_Bill]

He was referring to the gate of baptism and few there be that find that correct authorized gate in this life. But that does not equate with making it to the celestial kingdom since that opportunity exists beyond the grave by proxy work.

Interesting take. I've never really heard that interpretation of that before...and it is nullified by his doctrine of proxy baptism that I assume comes later. Narrow is the gate and straight is the way that leads to eternal life, and few there be that find it, if i paraphrase. Even if you take the view of it being baptism, what to I make of the "few" portion when really, everyone can find it.

[changed]

what to I make of the "few" portion when really, everyone can find it.

perhaps instead of "finding it" on their own, they are instead shown? few find it in their mortal life on earth, but everyone will be shown everything beyond the veil.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.~ Revelation 21:4

sounds like everyone will be more than happy after all is said and done... would you be happy in heaven if those you love were suffering somewhere else? no one would be happy in heaven if everyone wasn't happy - heaven would not exist - we're all in this together...

rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory ~ 1 Peter 1:8

And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. ~ 2 Nephi 33:12

Edited June 22, 2011 by changed

[CV75]

There is no need for innocent suffering IMO

This might be the same idea as there being no need for Satan, in that God’s purposes would roll forth regardless of whether Satan existed. But there he was and God addressed his presence in His plan rather than remove him or prevent him from entering the equation. It is in our best interest to respond successfully, typically by relying on God to promote our and others’ salvation.

In a similar way, while there is no need for innocents to suffer, they do. The root of their suffering is our inadequacies or Satan’s influence. God uses these incidents in His plan rather than remove them from the equation. Since such things are present, it is best to respond to them in a way that relies on God to promote our salvation and theirs.