Mars Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 These aren't simple questions, and I don't think they have answers.I'd say "These aren't simple questions, and there is no one ubiquitous answer that will satisfy everyone, or even one person though all the stages of his life." 1
Darth_Bill Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I'd say "These aren't simple questions, and there is no one ubiquitous answer that will satisfy everyone, or even one person though all the stages of his life."Fair, but I didn't know how to ask some of these before. Also, these are questions that have been around for a long time. Job was written to try to address the problem of pain. While I accepted the atonement for much of my life, it is only recently when I had the proper lexicon to ask "how". I haven't found any answers but that didn't mean they didn't exist early in my religious career. It is just that I ask it now.
Mars Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Maybe the old answers don't work when you learn a new question?
Lamanite Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Lamanite,Are you asking for a world without suffering? Am I oversimplifying your first post on this thread - "How can I believe in a loving God when there's so much suffering?"Where should the line be drawn on hurt and pain?read this then we can talk - this is a refined essay on my position.Big UP!Lamanite
Mars Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 OK, done.I don't think you want me to answer, Lamanite. I think I'm setup for failure by offering my thoughts. My answer will probably be 'tinkling brass' to you.I think what you want is commiseration, and an arm around your shoulders with a "Yeah, this sucks" kinda brotherly attitude.I hope you find the answers you're looking for. 1
Mars Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 But you do have a spelling error:"the Lord will says to those of us"Just to prove I did read it.
Lamanite Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) But you do have a spelling error:"the Lord will says to those of us"Just to prove I did read it. I'm sure there is more than one spelling error and not a few grammatical issues. Anyway, I don't need a hug or commiseration, I just need a nap. I knew taking this down off the shelf was going to be trying and it has been. I'm no closer to an answer and I'm emotionally exhausted.Big UP!Lamanite Edited June 21, 2011 by Lamanite
Calm Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I'm sure there are more than one spelling error and not a few grammatical issues. Anyway, I don't need a hug or commiseration, I just need a nap. I knew taking this down off the shelf was going to be trying and it has been. I'm no closer to an answer and I'm emotionally exhausted.Big UP!LamaniteYou're definitely not going to find answers to this kind of question on a message board in my opinion. At best, these discussions can help frame the question in a way that you might just be able to address the real issue/assumption behind the question, ultimately leading to an answer; but I believe that answer, if it is to be satisfying and lasting longer than the next 'bump', can only come from the Lord. Edited June 20, 2011 by calmoriah 1
Lamanite Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 You're definitely not going to find answers to this kind of question on a message board in my opinion. At best, these discussions can help frame the question in a way that you might just be able to address the real issue/assumption behind the question, ultimately leading to an answer; but I believe that answer, if it is to be satisfying and lasting longer than the next 'bump', can only come from the Lord.I beg God to help my unbelief. If men of God and philosophers have been trying to figure this out for centuries why would he reveal his purpose(s) to me? There really is no viable Mormon theodicy and yet I'm looking and hoping for one. Will I be the one to get it. Even if I don't share it with anyone does God value me enough to send pure intelligence into my mind to solve this issue?Alma 32- my faith is present but it is much smaller than a mustard seed.Big UP!Lamanite
Calm Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I beg God to help my unbelief. If men of God and philosophers have been trying to figure this out for centuries why would he reveal his purpose(s) to me? There really is no viable Mormon theodicy and yet I'm looking and hoping for one. Will I be the one to get it. Even if I don't share it with anyone does God value me enough to send pure intelligence into my mind to solve this issue?Alma 32- my faith is present but it is much smaller than a mustard seed.Big UP!LamaniteIf you wonder that you will get an answer, perhaps it would be best for you to pray for peace about the question instead. 1
Lamanite Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 If you wonder that you will get an answer, perhaps it would be best for you to pray for peace about the question instead.Indeed. Perhaps I'm looking past the mark. I have a wife and four daughters who need a dad right now to come outside and play. I will magnify my calling and tend to my stewardship for awhile. Thanks Cal!Sione
Calm Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Indeed. Perhaps I'm looking past the mark. I have a wife and four daughters who need a dad right now to come outside and play. I will magnify my calling and tend to my stewardship for awhile. Thanks Cal!SioneThere's been lots of times in my life where I've had to make the same sort of choice, I don't believe the Lord can answer our prayers until we are ready for those answers so at times all he can offer us now is peace and comfort that He is there.
Questing Beast Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 IMO, your entire post is the hollow trumpeting of the sounding brass. It doesn't mean **** to a starving 4yr old, or the millions who suffer innocently right now. Your like the people who said to me after my Dad died by being run over by a train, "God just needed him in Heaven for another purpose." You know what I thought, "Eff God's purpose, why would he need a Dad more than a 13 yr old boy?" Worthless. Still Worthless.I don't know how I could be "like the people who said to [you] ... 'God just needed him in Heaven for another purpose'", when I would never assert such nonsense in the first place.Death answers all needs. Sooner or later some need is just too big and we die. We are answered then. Some of us find "answers" sufficient before death to continue on, but never unscathed by the suffering of disappointment, and real physical pain and disability, etc., some of it lasting from birth to death many years later. You appeal to an example of kids not getting enough to eat, or losing a parent too soon: but what about people born with such crushing disabilities that they hardly seem human? Their existence doesn't even resonate on the "experience" scale that I suggested. Yet they are "here", for whatever reason. And many or most of them suffer in indescribable ways. What is up with that? All I can assume is that their presence is to test the patience of those like me who see them and get angry at something for causing such imperfection.Death answers all needs, and they will soon be gone from "here" and whole again, as immortals assuredly are whole and perfect forever. That means that "here" is just as temporary as "three-score and ten years" is in eternity. But what we felt and weighed and decided is true remains with us forever....
Questing Beast Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 ...I won't bother to respond to any of this part of your comment. Hide behind your "perhaps" and refuse to make a move.I don't know what's bugging you. But if you are hoping to find some oracle of spiritual wisdom on the Internet I reckon you are destined for disappointment.I have been saying the closest thing to what I believe as words can express....
Calm Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 what about people born with such crushing disabilities that they hardly seem human? Their existence doesn't even resonate on the "experience" scale that I suggested. Yet they are "here", for whatever reason. And many or most of them suffer in indescribable ways. What is up with that? All I can assume is that their presence is to test the patience of those like me who see them and get angry at something for causing such imperfection.Seriously? You assume their purpose of their suffering is for you and others like you?That seem rather egocentric to me. 1
elguanteloko Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't know what's bugging you. But if you are hoping to find some oracle of spiritual wisdom on the Internet I reckon you are destined for disappointment.I have been saying the closest thing to what I believe as words can express....Your "perhaps, perhaps, perhaps"s are possibilities, not statements of belief.
Mars Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I never meant to brush aside your thoughts, Lamanite. You poured your self into it, and I should have been more sensitive. I apologize.I should have said that I don't think these questions have answers, just perspective, wisdom, and transcendent understanding, three things I'm fresh out of. I don't want to trivialize your feelings, so I just want to say again, though sincerely, I hope you find what you're looking for.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Duplicate. Edited June 21, 2011 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) ... [T]he needless suffering of children specifically throughout the world, and through no fault of their own, does not mesh very well with an All-Powerful/All-Loving God.When Nephi says, “I do not know the meaning of all things,” is part of what he means that what seems needless from our perspective is actually needful from God’s perspective? Is all flesh in God’s hands, or isn’t it? If all flesh is in God’s hands, then does He have ways for something good to come out of even the most horrendous suffering, either in this life or in the next (see Isaiah 55:8-9)? Edited June 21, 2011 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) ... I don't like the idea of "innocents" being victimized by a fallen world they, seemingly, had no choice in creating ...I’m not sure where I read it in my cyber- and/or bibliophilic travels, but I read, somewhere, that we were, in fact, at the creation, and that we did, in fact, participate ... (Can anyone verify this ... ? ) Edited June 21, 2011 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Thanks! I sure wish I had you to tell me I was not "mature" enough to appreciate my suffering including cold, hunger, racism, and last but not least abuse. If only as a young child I could have to myself and my younger sister that we just need to trust in God and be more mature (a euphemistic statement for "suck it up") ...I don't think that's what shalamabobbi is saying. Rarely do we understand the meaning of the things we suffer as we suffer them. I think shalamabobbi is saying that we acquire that understanding as/after we mature (no matter our age when the suffering occurs). And keep in mind, as I say that, that while you're yet A Young Grasshopper in mortal terms, you're actually an Ageless Eternal Being, from whom a veil of forgetfulness eventually will be removed. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Duplicate. Edited June 21, 2011 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 As an adult I am willing to trust while being honest enough to say I don't understand. I will not/cannot concede that innocent suffering by those who lack the cognitive ability to appreciate and grow from their trials has any value whatsover.The growth doesn't come in the moment of the trial. The growth, in some cases, comes before the trial, when we were prepared (either in this life or in the preceding one) with the wherewithal to withstand it; and the growth comes after the trial, with the perspective gained by the intervening moments, hours, days, months, and years (eternities?) needed to understand it.Somebody who was born blind (or with another birth defect) "lacks the cognitive ability to appreciate and grow" from it at first, but acquires it (in this life, in the next, or both) gradually, as time passes. (And maybe s/he even acquires/acquired it in the premortal life, a perspective which will be restored once a veil is removed). There's a Polaroid perspective, in which a single, candid moment is captured which may not make sense in and of itself, and there's an IMAX, wide-angle, panoramic perspective, where we suddenly go, "Aaah! So that's what was happening in that Polaroid picture!" 1
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