The Problem Of Pain

[Lamanite]

If it's true that a portion of the purpose of this life is to learn through experiences with our physical body, then it seems to me to be reasonable that the mature spirit within a suffering child is learning invaluable lessons even when the child isn't. I trust that, when the veil is removed, what seems here like senseless suffering will be valuable experiences to those who suffered.

Sounds good on paper until you find a child in a soiled diaper in a middle of a meth lab who hasn't been fed or clothed for so long that it has sores. Or, a child who has innocently and mistakenly been shut in a trunk in the middle of the Summer and dies in that awful coffin. Surely, God could have created a more suitable learning environment for his Spirit child to learn the lessons of mortality. He freed Ammon from a prison and chains, but he couldn't pop the trunk on a Buick? The "right" gospel answers are often the tinkling cymbols and sounding brass to those who suffer innocently.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

One of my favourite scriptures. The other is "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I have written paper after paper trying to figure this out. Non have been read by others and they have been primarily an exercise in working through both what my heart and mind are feeling. This thread is really the first time I've discussed this stuff so I'm being a tad bit hyperbolic and assertive but it is a hard one for me.

I love your scripture too! What will will it be like when the veil is finally rent and we finally "see things as they really are." What a blessed day. Like McConkie I'm sure we "will feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with [our] tears."

And with a little embarrassment I will sheepishly ask that he kindly overlook my mortal hubris and perhaps trust that I was really really trying to be valiant in my testimony of Him!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Calm]

I have written paper after paper trying to figure this out. Non have been read by others and they have been primarily an exercise in working through both what my heart and mind are feeling. This thread is really the first time I've discussed this stuff so I'm being a tad bit hyperbolic and assertive but it is a hard one for me.

I love your scripture too! What will will it be like when the veil is finally rent and we finally "see things as they really are." What a blessed day. Like McConkie I'm sure we "will feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with [our] tears."

And with a little embarrassment I will sheepishly ask that he kindly overlook my mortal hubris and perhaps trust that I was really really trying to be valiant in my testimony of Him!

Joseph Smith said one of the most important things we need to learn is about the true nature of God, IIRC. How can we learn if we don't ask questions, question our own assumptions, question others' assumptions, etc?

[Lamanite]

Good point! I'm telling God you said my hereticism is ok. Lol!

Big up!

Lamamite - mobile

[Hughes]

Sounds good on paper until you find a child in a soiled diaper in a middle of a meth lab who hasn't been fed or clothed for so long that it has sores. Or, a child who has innocently and mistakenly been shut in a trunk in the middle of the Summer and dies in that awful coffin. Surely, God could have created a more suitable learning environment for his Spirit child to learn the lessons of mortality. He freed Ammon from a prison and chains, but he couldn't pop the trunk on a Buick? The "right" gospel answers are often the tinkling cymbols and sounding brass to those who suffer innocently.

Big UP!

Lamanite

The assumption that "surely God could have created a more suitable learning environment..." is false.

The assumption is that this is a "learning" environment of the type you understand. I think it's more accurately described as a "creative" environment.

What was God's purpose in creating us in the beginning? Why create us with a free will? What is really the purpose of all this?

I think your question can only be answered correctly when we understand the whole picture.

And in light of that, I think that the reason he went to all this trouble, was to create in us or rather share with us the perfect love he already has/had in the Godhead.

There is, however only one way to create this love. And that's by allowing freewill. If there's anything less than freedom, then love isn't perfect or meaningful. The problem, as you have rightly pointed out is pain. Because allowing freedom to love also allows the freedom to not love, or do evil.

Now concerning the tragic stories of kids dying of starvation etc.

There is a balance between, what God will do for us, and what we aren't to expect.

For example, when the Devil tempted Jesus , (Matt 4:7) Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

In essence, if God saved all the children from starvation, then we as a people would depend on that, instead of doing what is rightly our responsibility.

The bottom line, all of us will die. There are no innocent dying people. Our fate as having to die was sealed by Adam and as we are the offspring of Adam, we have the same fate.

[Nathair/|\]

What I said was never meant to be more than a partial answer. I don't know anything resembling a complete one. Nevertheless, I apologize for attempting. What business does someone like me who has barely struggled at all, despite being useless and evil and deserving of the pain you have described, have talking about pain to someone like you who has always been valiant and yet has gone through unimaginable horror.

Yours under the regretful oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Lamanite]

What I said was never meant to be more than a partial answer. I don't know anything resembling a complete one. Nevertheless, I apologize for attempting. What business does someone like me who has barely struggled at all, despite being useless and evil and deserving of the pain you have described, have talking about pain to someone like you who has always been valiant and yet has gone through unimaginable horror.

Yours under the regretful oaks,

Nathair /|\

Don't be a baby. I'm less than valiant and you are closer to perfection than you think.

Big UP!

Lamanite

P.S. If I had a complete answer I wouldn't be writing on a message board I would be giving a conference talk. We are all just trying to figure stuff out.

[ThomasJoseph]

I believe that Pain will proceed into the next life on earth.

It would be a matter of inflicting it upon ourselves or others. Another moment, nothing serious.

i think our pain is as much a lesson fro the angels as it is for us.

Let all things Glorify his name.

lest we forget, there is only one teacher.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I just can't see how a 3 year old child who is suffering from malnutrition, malaria, and a very slow painful death needs these experiences...

Lamanite

I think I'm getting a better understanding on a cerebral, intellectual level about suffering. But every time I experience it anew in person, or witness it in others, it is not any easier to accept it than it was during the previous experience. I am reminded about the expression that is spoken in many different ways, but it goes something like this:

If we could all, as a group, put our personal trials and tribulation out on the table, and shuffle through them looking for one that we would like to trade for, we each would end up satisfied to again choose our own that we are familiar with, and walk away happy that we aren't stuck with anyone else's trial.

I think there is a lot of truth to that. But in context of your OP, it drives home the fact that sometimes we judge the trials of others as more grave and desperate than our own. I can't judge, but I imagine that the 3 year-old with malaria and malnutrition is acquainted with his or her suffering, and supported and sustained by a loving Heavenly Father in that trial, in much the same way that the person witnessing that child's suffering is sustained in his own trials. I would hope so, anyway.

It reminds me when the Zoramites were burning the believers, and Amulek wanted to stretch forth his hand to stop it. Alma forbade him, however, and said that God would receive those innocent people up unto himself.

[blackstrap]

I am not sure about the percentage of suffering cause by God(floods,tornados,tsunamis etc.)and the percentage caused by man,but I'm sure that an enormous amount of suffering could be alieviated if we were to follow the commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves.How many of the malarial deaths could be stopped by reallocating the resources used to make a couple of fighter jets?Every choice we as individuals or as societies make has consequences both for good or bad on others whether the others are innocent of not.Perhaps its like gravity.Is gravity good or evil?Do we question gravity when we fall and skin our knee?We can suspend the effects of gravity for moments but eventually it will reassert its power.Such is life.We must struggle daily just to stand,and understand.

[Questing Beast]

Since my conversion to Mormonism I have found great satisfaction with the Church as a an institution and especially with the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mormon theology is very rewarding to me. It satisfies me and adds depth and meaning to what would have been a tragic and aimless existence. I have no major issues with the History of the Church, its teaching, doctrines, or faith based claims. However, over the years, and especially as I approach my 40's, I find that my biggest "issue" is with God himself and the problem of pain.

...

Of course I express my limited understanding, foresight, and overall ignorance relative to God's. I do not understand. My heart hurts for the needless suffering of certain people in certain situations. I don't understand. And I can't reconcile the God of I love; the God I know through Mormonism- with the suffering of millions of his children throughout the world.

Thoughts?

Big UP!

Lamanite

The suffering must teach some perspective that is essential to the understanding of immortals. As we cannot attach any meaningful measure to the "time" we spend here, compared to immortality, all mortal experience becomes no more than the memories of a dream. How long are your dreams? Some are sophisticated enough to feel like large spans of time. Others are just glimpses of memory. The dreaming mind has no capacity to measure time. And once we return to our immortal perspective, this "dip" into mortality will also seem measureless in its briefness.

So although we agonize here in a myriad of ways, it amounts to nothing for immortals: aside from the memory of the contrasts and oppositions, we will retain nothing immediate for our edification once we "die" and return to that eternal state of existence.

And without contrast; without knowledge of opposition in all things (as Lehi said), our existence would not be LIFE, it would be mere existence without sensibility.

I too suffer pangs of impatience and outrage whenever I see or hear of injustice. And it seems highly unjust to have innocent suffering occurring. So in order to not believe that God is an utter *bleep!*, I must accept that this world is nothing more than a venue for acquiring knowledge of what Joy is not, so that we can actually have Joy as immortals and appreciate it.

That's just a simple explanation, but it's the best I can come up with....

[Lamanite]

I revised my OP and put it into a blog with a few deletions and additions. It's still incomplete but I'm too tired to work anymore on it tonight. Check it our and comment.

www.fleetingfactoids.wordpress.com

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Bernard Gui]

I have learned patience, humility, empathy, forgiveness,

and obedience from what I have experienced.

Which is greater, physical or spiritual pain?

Bernard

[elguanteloko]

Since my conversion to Mormonism I have found great satisfaction with the Church as a an institution and especially with the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mormon theology is very rewarding to me. It satisfies me and adds depth and meaning to what would have been a tragic and aimless existence. I have no major issues with the History of the Church, its teaching, doctrines, or faith based claims. However, over the years, and especially as I approach my 40's, I find that my biggest "issue" is with God himself and the problem of pain.

C.S. Lewis said it best:

"...the possibility of pain is inherent in the very existence of a world where souls can meet. When souls become wicked they will certainly use this possibility to hurt one another; and this, perhaps, accounts for four-fifths of the suffering of men." Problem of Pain pg 86. (emphasis added)

Well, this is exactly the problem. The problem is that pain is inherent in the very existence of a world created in a special way by God. The possibility of "souls becoming wicked" exists because of God.

It is true that God's respect for the agency of man precludes his forceable interference.

This doesn't make much sense since God's interference does NOT exclude free will at all (to a degree, admittedly). The angels that fell with Lucifer had free will but they where with God. Adam and Eve walked with God, too, and they also had free will. Agency doesn't speak of the conditions under which it acts here, really. If you prevent person X from brutally murdering Y's 8 year-old son by killing X right before he murders Y's son, did you take away his free agency? Do you take away anyone's agency by stopping them from doing what you already know they are going to do after they chose to do it? I don't think so.

He lovingly allows accepts our free will offerings, charitable actions, and indeed looks with understanding and mercy towards our "sins and misdeeds" (D. Christofferson), so that his "Atonement [may] ransom man from the Fall" and indeed himself. Out of respect for the laws of nature and the sacrosanct nature of our agency he simply allows himself the ability to influence us "only by ^cpersuasion, by ^dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;" (D&C 121)

So I happily concede that in mortality, God remains the author and master tutor of our compressed curriculum, which at times seems to be accelerated by affliction. But in the words of the Theologia Germanica, xxc, "nature hath a horror of it."

• Natural Disasters- Haiti, 2010 Earthquate - still counting. Most estimates now exceed 220,000 dead.
• Every year 15 million children die of hunger
• In 2008, malaria caused nearly one million deaths, mostly among African children.

Without violating the agency of man, it seems that God could have provided a world where our trials and tribulations, which seem to be plentiful due to our own fallen states and poor choices, would provide plenty of learning experiences and opportunities to be valiant, obedient, and cultivate the attributes of Eternal beings. This could, in my opinion, take place without forcing innocent children to suffer needlessly and who in most cases don't have the cognitive abilities to "learn" from their experience.

President Eyring said in this months Ensign, "To receive the gift of living with Him forever in families in the celestial kingdom, we must be able to live the laws of that kingdom (see D&C 88:22). He has given us commandments in this life to help us develop that capacity." I just can't see how a 3 year old child who is suffering from malnutrition, malaria, and a very slow painful death needs these experiences.

Surely, an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omni-benevolent God could have created a plan of salvation where our trials of obedience and growth could come from 3 sources, our own choices; the choices of others; and those special circumstances when the Lord says to us, "I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice." D&C 132:51.

Of course I express my limited understanding, foresight, and overall ignorance relative to God's. I do not understand. My heart hurts for the needless suffering of certain people in certain situations. I don't understand. And I can't reconcile the God of I love; the God I know through Mormonism- with the suffering of millions of his children throughout the world.

Thoughts?

I think some Mormons may argue also that God's plan wasn't really God's plan but it is a plan based (or copied) from infinitely many plans by other gods. This would, however, beg the question since even if this plan is not really originally God's, that still doesn't justify said plan as just, fair, good, or desirable.

[elguanteloko]

The suffering must teach some perspective that is essential to the understanding of immortals. As we cannot attach any meaningful measure to the "time" we spend here, compared to immortality, all mortal experience becomes no more than the memories of a dream. How long are your dreams? Some are sophisticated enough to feel like large spans of time. Others are just glimpses of memory. The dreaming mind has no capacity to measure time. And once we return to our immortal perspective, this "dip" into mortality will also seem measureless in its briefness.

So although we agonize here in a myriad of ways, it amounts to nothing for immortals: aside from the memory of the contrasts and oppositions, we will retain nothing immediate for our edification once we "die" and return to that eternal state of existence.

And without contrast; without knowledge of opposition in all things (as Lehi said), our existence would not be LIFE, it would be mere existence without sensibility.

I too suffer pangs of impatience and outrage whenever I see or hear of injustice. And it seems highly unjust to have innocent suffering occurring. So in order to not believe that God is an utter *bleep!*, I must accept that this world is nothing more than a venue for acquiring knowledge of what Joy is not, so that we can actually have Joy as immortals and appreciate it.

That's just a simple explanation, but it's the best I can come up with....

So many wrong things here... I'll mention some.

Has God always been God? If yes, then: Does God understand that "perspective" that is "essential" (according to you) without having to have been a mortal like us? (if no, then he isn't all knowing) If yes, then there doesn't seem to be a reason stated why he can have this knowledge without being human while we have to be human.

Something even more important: Why do some people suffer rape while most of us don't? Is each specific (specific to the microunit of pain) pain we suffer essential to understand this supposed "perspective"? It seems, by what you are saying here, that some of the presidents of the Church, let's say as an example, can get to understand this "essential perspective" but they understand it without having to be molested or raped but a 14 year-old girl that gets raped and murdered wasn't able to get that "essential perspective" in any other way? Seems rather suspicious to me. I think what you are saying here greatly underestimates the amount of suffering... while at the same time you seem to think ALL of it has been necessary and justified.

too many more problems but these are some of the most interesting because you don't hear them very often.

Edited June 20, 2011 by elguanteloko

[Darth_Bill]

I've found that I struggle with a lot of the same issues. While mine might be that I can't logically support and understand the atonement any longer, I do struggle with this too. I've always been a fatalist and that God really doesn't intervene much, if at all, in our lives. If he does, then he does become a respector of persons and not all of us are on the same footing to be judged equally. This does seem to fly in the face of scripture and I'm not sure if I've ever been able to harmonize the real world with the world presented in scripture.

You aren't the only one to not get it anymore. I'm not struggling with mormonism per se, but with the world outlook in Christianity and religion in general. My struggles are those that we've been facing for millenia, and I know there isn't an answer. I find that highly unsatisfying right now.

[Lamanite]

I've found that I struggle with a lot of the same issues. While mine might be that I can't logically support and understand the atonement any longer, I do struggle with this too. I've always been a fatalist and that God really doesn't intervene much, if at all, in our lives. If he does, then he does become a respector of persons and not all of us are on the same footing to be judged equally. This does seem to fly in the face of scripture and I'm not sure if I've ever been able to harmonize the real world with the world presented in scripture.

You aren't the only one to not get it anymore. I'm not struggling with mormonism per se, but with the world outlook in Christianity and religion in general. My struggles are those that we've been facing for millenia, and I know there isn't an answer. I find that highly unsatisfying right now.

Well said.

Within a Mormon context, God has proven that he can prevent and provide relief to those who suffer innocently (and even those who suffer because of their own bad choices. But I'm ignoring that so as to keep the discussion focused), and because of all the anecdotal and experiential evidence from our own lives and the world around us, someone may justifiably conclude that God is a respecter of persons, he is unjust, and due to his favoritism and inaction, he is evil. I'm not at that point, but I can see how some feel that way.

Big UP!

Lamanite- cleaned up the blog a little. www.fleetingfactoids.wordpress.com

[Questing Beast]

So many wrong things here... I'll mention some.

Has God always been God?

Define your "God" first. If it is the Mormon one, Joseph Smith's physical, tangible and finite "God the Father", then the answer is "No".

If "God" is something like "Existence in the first place", or the Necessary Cause of Existence instead of a Void of Darkness with Nothing, then the answer is "Yes, God has always existed".

If yes, then: Does God understand that "perspective" that is "essential" (according to you) without having to have been a mortal like us? (if no, then he isn't all knowing) If yes, then there doesn't seem to be a reason stated why he can have this knowledge without being human while we have to be human.

The inarguable fact of our "human" existence shows that "God" is up to something besides tiddly winks. The greatest concept possible to imagine for "God" says something like this: "God is in all things, through all things, above and below all things. There is nothing that exists that is not a part of God. Nothing manifests but that it originates in God".

So the myriad ways of experiencing pain are in effect infinite. We are not infinite, ergo we will never experience ALL the infinite ways of pain and suffering.

Each soul is possessed of free will. It is a logical assertion when considering metaphysics to say that God, being Infinite, does not create things that have no infinite meaning. Perhaps every "brand" of suffering gives "God" insight; since no suffering occurs without "God" also experiencing it, as it is part of "God" and originated there.

"God" seems to prefer sensibility to sitting alone in the Darkness with Nothing. Or perhaps, both extremes simultaneously.

Something even more important: Why do some people suffer rape while most of us don't? Is each specific (specific to the microunit of pain) pain we suffer essential to understand this supposed "perspective"? It seems, by what you are saying here, that some of the presidents of the Church, let's say as an example, can get to understand this "essential perspective" but they understand it without having to be molested or raped but a 14 year-old girl that gets raped and murdered wasn't able to get that "essential perspective" in any other way? Seems rather suspicious to me.

Perspective would go along with individual talents. What one person "understands" without experience is the same as a "latent" spiritual gift; something so instinctive that it just IS. But none of us are gifted with everything. Rather, we possess a little knowledge by instinct or Spirit, but most of human experience is closed to us without going through mortality ourselves. Children who die very young seem pitiful, but perhaps they are the most gifted of all. That goes along with Mormon doctrine, regarding innocence and accountability.

I think what you are saying here greatly underestimates the amount of suffering...

I don't know how you got there with what I said. I was trivializing mortality. I don't believe that some comparison of the quantity of PAIN is going to be attached like a badge or award for the rest of eternity. When we are gone from "being there", and return to our natural, immortal state: other than admitting what we know, there will not be comparisons of suffering to see who knows more about it than we do. Rather, we will focus our concern upon each other to determine if we are Joyful Beings or still incomplete. Those still "not there yet" will go back for more. And "being there" is the only venue where we can learn what Joy really IS.

... while at the same time you seem to think ALL of it has been necessary and justified...

To say that any and all suffering is not necessary and justified is tantamount to saying that you know better than "God". Being in the presence of, and participating in suffering is necessary. The degree of it and the "vehicle of delivery" of it is not for us to pick and choose, only to experience. When we have a problem with it we take it to "God".

The ways of objection are legion too....

[shalamabobbi]

I've found that I struggle with a lot of the same issues. While mine might be that I can't logically support and understand the atonement any longer, I do struggle with this too. I've always been a fatalist and that God really doesn't intervene much, if at all, in our lives. If he does, then he does become a respector of persons and not all of us are on the same footing to be judged equally. This does seem to fly in the face of scripture and I'm not sure if I've ever been able to harmonize the real world with the world presented in scripture.

You aren't the only one to not get it anymore. I'm not struggling with mormonism per se, but with the world outlook in Christianity and religion in general. My struggles are those that we've been facing for millenia, and I know there isn't an answer. I find that highly unsatisfying right now.

Having just watched the "17 Miracles" about the Willie handcart company and accepting the miracles reported to be real there are some observations to be made.

First there were miracles that related to the miraculous provision of food. An angel that provided strips of jerky to a woman, a couple of dried biscuits that were multiplied to fill a pot, and a vessel filled with food that appeared to a girl who stayed with her mother who had decided to sit by the way and wait for death to arrive.

Yet these provisions seemed more to be directed at encouraging the camp that what they were involved in was indeed the work of the Lord and to carry on rather than to maintain the physical body and avert death. The number who died was about 10 percent of the company.

Though this life is real it is something of a holodeck experience as well in that life extends in both directions beyond. I don't think the tragedy of death is viewed the same from within this frame of reference as from without.

The distinction of who gets to receive the miraculous interventions from who does not may seem to us like God being a respecter of persons but maybe the reality is like doubting Thomas of old the more blessed are those who manage on their own without the miraculous and this will be apparent on the other side.

[Lamanite]

To say that any and all suffering is not necessary and justified is tantamount to saying that you know better than "God".

IMO, your entire post is the hollow trumpeting of the sounding brass. It doesn't mean **** to a starving 4yr old, or the millions who suffer innocently right now. Your like the people who said to me after my Dad died by being run over by a train, "God just needed him in Heaven for another purpose." You know what I thought, "Eff God's purpose, why would he need a Dad more than a 13 yr old boy?" Worthless. Still Worthless.

But the part of your quote about knowing better than God, is something I must continually ask myself as I trod this path. That is definitely relevant.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[shalamabobbi]

IMO, your entire post is the hollow trumpeting of the sounding brass. It doesn't mean **** to a starving 4yr old, or the millions who suffer innocently right now. Your like the people who said to me after my Dad died by being run over by a train, "God just needed him in Heaven for another purpose." You know what I thought, "Eff God's purpose, why would he need a Dad more than a 13 yr old boy?" Worthless. Still Worthless.

But the part of your quote about knowing better than God, is something I must continually ask myself as I trod this path. That is definitely relevant.

Big UP!

Lamanite

My dad was misdiagnosed and died from stomach cancer when I was 14. I received the call from the hospital at 4 am as the phone was in my bedroom. Though he was a physically abusive spouse and parent and usually drunk during such episodes I cried myself to sleep.

I was not a member at the time and did not believe in an afterlife then.

Three years later when missionaries knocked on our front door I felt an inexplicable and overwhelming desire to have my mother let them in and hear what they had to say. She did not. I learned later that she had dated a member before meeting my father but in her words she did not feel worthy of him. She said he had gotten up during testimony meeting and confessed his sins to the ward.

Anyways I got to hear the missionaries the next day. A friend was taking the discussions and snagged me and had me sit in on the discussions.

I left on a mission about the age of 21 to Argentina. I did the temple work for my father before leaving and it resulted in the most spiritual experience of my life as he thanked me for doing his work for him.

When my mother recently died I happened to be back visiting her at the time and had the experience of waking in the morning to find her upon her bed. Though much older now that experience was by far the harder of the two. It could have been traumatic for me as I am a lightweight in such matters but the spirit seems to whisper to me "see, you went through this and you are OK".

I did find a member friends comments offensive though when her reaction to my tears was that I should have more faith in the afterlife etc. She did not comprehend why I was crying and offered a simplistic solution to try and comfort me.

[Lamanite]

My dad was misdiagnosed and died from stomach cancer when I was 14. I received the call from the hospital at 4 am as the phone was in my bedroom. Though he was a physically abusive spouse and parent and usually drunk during such episodes I cried myself to sleep.

I was not a member at the time and did not believe in an afterlife then.

Three years later when missionaries knocked on our front door I felt an inexplicable and overwhelming desire to have my mother let them in and hear what they had to say. She did not. I learned later that she had dated a member before meeting my father but in her words she did not feel worthy of him. She said he had gotten up during testimony meeting and confessed his sins to the ward.

Anyways I got to hear the missionaries the next day. A friend was taking the discussions and snagged me and had me sit in on the discussions.

I left on a mission about the age of 21 to Argentina. I did the temple work for my father before leaving and it resulted in the most spiritual experience of my life as he thanked me for doing his work for him.

When my mother recently died I happened to be back visiting her at the time and had the experience of waking in the morning to find her upon her bed. Though much older now that experience was by far the harder of the two. It could have been traumatic for me as I am a lightweight in such matters but the spirit seems to whisper to me "see, you went through this and you are OK".

I did find a member friends comments offensive though when her reaction to my tears was that I should have more faith in the afterlife etc. She did not comprehend why I was crying and offered a simplistic solution to try and comfort me.

I'm glad that we both can view our adversities through the lens of faith. Although, mortal suffering causes significant near sightedness, the Gospel restoress spiritual sight so that we may see things "as they really are." I just hope you're not naive enough to think that all who suffer innocently are blessed to see through the suffocating smog of tribulation. Relatively speaking, very few are able to feel the gentle tugs and pulls of the spirit when innocent pain is tearing their lives apart. Sometimes I wish the "still small voice" was the "Loud and boisterous" voice of reassurance.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Edited June 20, 2011 by Lamanite

[Mars]

Lamanite,

Are you asking for a world without suffering? Am I oversimplifying your first post on this thread - "How can I believe in a loving God when there's so much suffering?"

Where should the line be drawn on hurt and pain?

[elguanteloko]

Define your "God" first. If it is the Mormon one, Joseph Smith's physical, tangible and finite "God the Father", then the answer is "No".

If "God" is something like "Existence in the first place", or the Necessary Cause of Existence instead of a Void of Darkness with Nothing, then the answer is "Yes, God has always existed".

Some Mormons don't believe the "God (the Father) was once a human mortal" stuff so I left the comment open for your interpretation. I mean, it was obvious I was asking for you to address YOUR idea of God, not anyone else's. Here you don't say which is yours so this doesn't help.

The inarguable fact of our "human" existence shows that "God" is up to something besides tiddly winks. The greatest concept possible to imagine for "God" says something like this: "God is in all things, through all things, above and below all things. There is nothing that exists that is not a part of God. Nothing manifests but that it originates in God".

so? I'm asking for your idea of God, QB. It seems hard for me to get that this idea of God is the one you adopt if you are a Mormon; I don't get why you would even mention this.

So the myriad ways of experiencing pain are in effect infinite. We are not infinite, ergo we will never experience ALL the infinite ways of pain and suffering.

which doesn't answer anything I've been asking.

Each soul is possessed of free will. It is a logical assertion when considering metaphysics to say that God, being Infinite, does not create things that have no infinite meaning.

...'infinite meaning', right? Look, QB, I have no idea what you are talking about here but you don't seem to have understood what I said.

Perhaps every "brand" of suffering gives "God" insight; since no suffering occurs without "God" also experiencing it, as it is part of "God" and originated there.

wait, perhaps? I'm asking for what you think, QB. I can say "perhaps God does exist" when I don't believe in God but I'm asking you what YOU believe.

"God" seems to prefer sensibility to sitting alone in the Darkness with Nothing. Or perhaps, both extremes simultaneously.

yeah, perhaps... Come on, man.

Perspective would go along with individual talents. What one person "understands" without experience is the same as a "latent" spiritual gift; something so instinctive that it just IS.

A gift means it is given, NOT instinctive (though you can say it became instinctive once God gave you that 'gift'). If it is a "gift" then it seems God could have given us all the "essential perspective" without people having to actually get burned or stabbed, etc.

But none of us are gifted with everything. Rather, we possess a little knowledge by instinct or Spirit, but most of human experience is closed to us without going through mortality ourselves. Children who die very young seem pitiful, but perhaps they are the most gifted of all. That goes along with Mormon doctrine, regarding innocence and accountability.

I don't know how you got there with what I said. I was trivializing mortality. I don't believe that some comparison of the quantity of PAIN is going to be attached like a badge or award for the rest of eternity. When we are gone from "being there", and return to our natural, immortal state: other than admitting what we know, there will not be comparisons of suffering to see who knows more about it than we do. Rather, we will focus our concern upon each other to determine if we are Joyful Beings or still incomplete. Those still "not there yet" will go back for more. And "being there" is the only venue where we can learn what Joy really IS.

To say that any and all suffering is not necessary and justified is tantamount to saying that you know better than "God". Being in the presence of, and participating in suffering is necessary. The degree of it and the "vehicle of delivery" of it is not for us to pick and choose, only to experience. When we have a problem with it we take it to "God".

The ways of objection are legion too....

I won't bother to respond to any of this part of your comment. Hide behind your "perhaps" and refuse to make a move.

[Darth_Bill]

These aren't simple questions, and I don't think they have answers. I am reminded by a conversation with my wife about an upcoming talk that she had to give. I gave the best answer I could. (I can't remember the question now.) She looked at me and said "I hate asking you these things because my 'Primary' answers don't fit."

I responded, "Then they weren't answers at all."

This life isn't easy. At best we find a philosophy that we can use. I don't understand the mechanics of the atonement and I'm an engineer and if I can't figure out how it works, then I go nuts. When I couldn't find the answer in scripture and not sure how to find the answer in prayer and when Pres. Hinckly stated that he didn't understand it (paraphrase from my wife) then I don't know where else to go. I understand the emotional reaction to the atonement. I understand how it made me more willing to forgive others and forgive myself, but I don't understand the need for someone to die in God's realm when we forgive each other all the time in ours. Mine is an intellectual problem. Philosophically speaking, I think mormonism is a great way of living my life. I just am having honest intellectual problems. (I've been with FAIR since their founding and don't buy into anti-mormon args. My issues are with the underlying assumptions.) I've also seen miracles in my life and others but this doesn't seem to sustain me much anymore. I could put this on the shelf, and in some respects, I have, but it is there, slapping me in the face every once in a while. I just don't get it most of the time.