The Church'S Appeal For Money For Monument(S)

[bluebell]

Isn't the City Creek Center enough of a monument............to Mammon?

Most religions recognize that suroundings and atmosphere can greatly add or subtract from people's ability to enjoy spiritual things. It's a pretty obvious issue really.

That so many, nonmembers especially, have chosen to denigrate the church's efforts to provide a good atmosphere to the temple square area despite the obvious reasons as to why they are doing it, speaks more to those people's feelings about the church than it does their feelings about the project.

It's why it's fairly easy to ignore the grumblings.....they have no substance to them.

[Sleeper Cell]

Most religions recognize that suroundings and atmosphere can greatly add or subtract from people's ability to enjoy spiritual things. It's a pretty obvious issue really.

For that matter, most governments (at least in the US) recognize that the surroundings and atmosphere can greatly add or subtract from the economic and social viability of a community.

That so many, nonmembers especially, have chosen to denigrate the church's efforts to provide a good atmosphere to the temple square area despite the obvious reasons as to why they are doing it, speaks more to those people's feelings about the church than it does their feelings about the project.

Perhaps some of the critics would have been happier had the project been funded by federal or state redevelopment money.

[Deborah]

Perhaps some of the critics would have been happier had the project been funded by federal or state redevelopment money.

And that would have come out of their pockets in the form of taxes.

I am seriously having a problem understanding why the critics care so much how the church spends it's money. I have a bigger problem with alleged members who question the stewardship of those in charge of church funds. They are not held at gunpoint and forced to make contributions so if they don't like it just stop paying. Geeeze....

[staccato]

I said nothing about tithing except as a response to tithing being a form of sacrifice. The point is the church has an apparent endless amount of cache money. It seems ridiculous to ask people to spend more on a monument, particularly in light of the fact the church is now spending even more marketing dollars to capitalize on the Book of Mormon musical in NYC.

But I do not pay. I just feel compelled to call out. This is like Bill Gates asking for people to contribute to his grocery budget for the month.

[bluebell]

This is like Bill Gates asking for people to contribute to his grocery budget for the month.

It's more like Bill Gates asking people to contribute to their own grocery budget for the month and then having Congressman Weiner pontificate about how abusive Gates is being for doing so.

[ERayR]

As I remember the letter it did not ask for donations but only instructed those that wished to donate to the monument to do so by using the Other Donations catagory on the donations slip and to specify that it was a donation to the restoration monument.

[Scott Lloyd]

My actual response was in relation to Dan's question "Do you, by the way, have any figures as to how much tithing money has gone into the mall?", as if that type of information is forthcoming and open when it comes to LDS finances.

I took Daniel's question as a de facto observation, a way to underscore that that there is, in fact, no tithing money going into the mall. This was, of course, a response to staccato's impertinent carping about the Church "sucking every little penny" out of its members.

[Scott Lloyd]

For that matter, most governments (at least in the US) recognize that the surroundings and atmosphere can greatly add or subtract from the economic and social viability of a community.

Apparently, Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker does, and he appreciates the City Creek project, as demonstrated by his remarks last weekend at the 100th anniversary gala for the Hotel Utah. (Becker, by the way, is not a Mormon.)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is like Bill Gates asking for people to contribute to his grocery budget for the month.

It's more like Bill Gates asking people to contribute to their own grocery budget for the month and then having Congressman Weiner pontificate about how abusive Gates is being for doing so.

Pooned.

[Traela]

I said nothing about tithing except as a response to tithing being a form of sacrifice. The point is the church has an apparent endless amount of cache money. It seems ridiculous to ask people to spend more on a monument, particularly in light of the fact the church is now spending even more marketing dollars to capitalize on the Book of Mormon musical in NYC.

But I do not pay. I just feel compelled to call out. This is like Bill Gates asking for people to contribute to his grocery budget for the month.

Maybe you missed the previous historic projects (such as the Nauvoo temple), in which members have asked the Church how they could contribute. Knowing that some members will want to donate, the Church simply decided to pre-empt all the inquiries and just announce from the outset how to do it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe you missed the previous historic projects (such as the Nauvoo temple), in which members have asked the Church how they could contribute. Knowing that some members will want to donate, the Church simply decided to pre-empt all the inquiries and just announce from the outset how to do it.

Attention critics:

I am a healthy, reasonably self-sufficient, functionally intelligent adult who believes in and is fully committed to the mission, objectives and work of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If I ever find myself in the unfortunate position of a victim who is having "every little penny" sucked out of me "under the guise of sacrifice," I'll let you know. You can then swoop in and rescue me.

Meanwhile, kindly stay out of my business.

[frankenstein]

Maybe you missed the previous historic projects (such as the Nauvoo temple), in which members have asked the Church how they could contribute. Knowing that some members will want to donate, the Church simply decided to pre-empt all the inquiries and just announce from the outset how to do it.

excellent point, and probably a lot of truth to it.

[Craig Paxton]

I, for one, love to pay tithing and to contribute. Most faithful Saints in my experience do, as well.

I take it that you don't.

And I think that the mall will be a great thing for Salt Lake City, Temple Square, and the Church.

Do you, by the way, have any figures as to how much tithing money has gone into the mall?

One major difference between you and us...as a church employee your job "requires" you to pay tithing...I don't question your love of paying tithing at all...

[Jeff K.]

Not a church employee, not required to pay. Love to return the Lord's money to Him. And only 10% of every blessing I have recieved including the atonement. Glad to have the opportunity to pay more, and hoping to be able to do and pay more in the future. And will gladly tell those who complain or pay and complain. Don't. Its not worth it. If you don't know why you are paying (and thus complain), then you aren't doing anything worthwhile. Otherwise, don't complain about what we love to do, we aren't stupid, and we love doing it.

[bluebell]

One major difference between you and us...as a church employee your job "requires" you to pay tithing...I don't question your love of paying tithing at all...

Is it really going to help you out by insinuating that Dan is lying?

This is the kind of stuff that quickly snowballs and gets threads shut down.

[ozpoof]

Most religions recognize that suroundings and atmosphere can greatly add or subtract from people's ability to enjoy spiritual things. It's a pretty obvious issue really.

That so many, nonmembers especially, have chosen to denigrate the church's efforts to provide a good atmosphere to the temple square area despite the obvious reasons as to why they are doing it, speaks more to those people's feelings about the church than it does their feelings about the project.

It's why it's fairly easy to ignore the grumblings.....they have no substance to them.

I think surrounding the Temple with open public space and landscaped parklands where people can appreciate nature and enjoy the outdoors would add far more to the feeling of spirituality than a mall and block of flats. Are you *seriously* telling me the church undertook this enterprise for the spiritual benefit of the residents of SLC?

[ozpoof]

Perhaps some of the critics would have been happier had the project been funded by federal or state redevelopment money.

No. For a church and culture that seems to love self reliance, it seems a lot of members have different attitudes when it comes to the church 'bailing out' Salt Lake. If SLC was a commercial wasteland it was because of the economics of locating businesses there. Why didn't any private company do what they church is doing? It SLC a friendly place for people who are not church members to do business? Are there restrictions of opening hours or alcohol sales that make locating businesses in SLC undesirable? Is there much disposable income amongst a population that has disproportionately more children and loses 10% of their income to the local corporation?

Let's face it, ALL of the church's money began with donations. If there are branches of the church generating income, that income began with investment of tithing money into commercial enterprises, and is testimony that at some stage tithing money was siphoned off for the purpose of generating more revenue rather than used to help members and OTHERS who are living in abject poverty.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Unless the monuments are defined as missionary expenses I suspect the Church would like to keep the donations private and not mix them with building/tithing/missionary/charitable funds. Just my guess.

Correct, each month I have to list my son mission money separately on a tithing slip.

[bluebell]

No. For a church and culture that seems to love self reliance, it seems a lot of members have different attitudes when it comes to the church 'bailing out' Salt Lake.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Part of the church's beliefs concerning self reliance is that we help 'others' to be sustain themselves when they themselves don't have the means to do so.

"When we are self-reliant, we use our blessings and resources to prepare for and avoid problems. Self-reliance, however, is enhanced as we pray for the courage to meet with faith the challenges that will surely come. Self-reliance also enables us to keep our covenant to care for others."

It's because the church is so self reliant that it can strengthen the community in downtown SLC, not in spite of it.

If SLC was a commercial wasteland it was because of the economics of locating businesses there. Why didn't any private company do what they church is doing? It SLC a friendly place for people who are not church members to do business?

I would imagine it was because so much money was needed to turn it around. It wasn't just a building that needed to be updated-the whole downtown area needed it, and no private business would have had the resources, or a reason, to but billions of dollars into an area just so a store or two could thrive.

Is there much disposable income amongst a population that has disproportionately more children and loses 10% of their income to the local corporation?

There are currently more non members in SLC than members, if i understand the numbers right. But the economy of the entire Salk Lake Valley, which, again if i understand the numbers right and which is largely LDS, is doing very well relatively speaking, is a good answer to your question.

Let's face it, ALL of the church's money began with donations. If there are branches of the church generating income, that income began with investment of tithing money into commercial enterprises, and is testimony that at some stage tithing money was siphoned off for the purpose of generating more revenue rather than used to help members and OTHERS who are living in abject poverty.

First-not all donations to the church are considered tithing. You've really got to do better research if you are going to spout opinions like they are fact.

Second-Judas said the same thing about the money mary wasted on the oil to worship Jesus with. It's for this reason that i have a hard time believing that those who make this sorry claim are motivated by anything other selfish motives.

Third-Tithing money isn't used for welfare. Again, that is a completely different donation. And, if it wasn't for the money making part of the church, the church wouldn't be able to help nearly as many people as it does. If people sincerely cared about the church helping the poor, they would support the church's efforts to bring in money so that it could meet all the needs it can of both members and nonmembers. That so many resent the church doing so, again, shows that it's not about the poor at all.

[bluebell]

I think surrounding the Temple with open public space and landscaped parklands where people can appreciate nature and enjoy the outdoors would add far more to the feeling of spirituality than a mall and block of flats. Are you *seriously* telling me the church undertook this enterprise for the spiritual benefit of the residents of SLC?

Have you ever been to downtown SLC?

[Deborah]

Have you ever been to downtown SLC?

He obviously hasn't. Temple Square has the most beautiful landscaping one can find. With fountains and gardens it is a paradise in the midst of a city.

He obviously doesn't understand that the church does have partners and that the businesses that will be present will not be owned or operated by the church but by actual business enterprises.

[Deborah]

Let's face it, ALL of the church's money began with donations. If there are branches of the church generating income, that income began with investment of tithing money into commercial enterprises, and is testimony that at some stage tithing money was siphoned off for the purpose of generating more revenue rather than used to help members and OTHERS who are living in abject poverty.

Not true. The church has always had business enterprises. Nauvoo became a thriving city not because or donations but because of the business that was able to grow there. Likewise for SLC in the early days.

Even if it were true, so what. For those who gladly pay tithes and offerings we recognize that once the money is given stewardship for how it is used is in the hands of men who are accountable to God. I wouldn't want to abuse that responsibility.

[Sleeper Cell]

No. For a church and culture that seems to love self reliance, it seems a lot of members have different attitudes when it comes to the church 'bailing out' Salt Lake. If SLC was a commercial wasteland it was because of the economics of locating businesses there. Why didn't any private company do what they church is doing? It SLC a friendly place for people who are not church members to do business? Are there restrictions of opening hours or alcohol sales that make locating businesses in SLC undesirable? Is there much disposable income amongst a population that has disproportionately more children and loses 10% of their income to the local corporation?

You seem to be implying that it is the fault of the LDS Church that SLC needs bailing out. If so, wouldn’t that be a strong argument in favor of the church bailing out SLC?

[Scott Lloyd]

I think surrounding the Temple with open public space and landscaped parklands where people can appreciate nature and enjoy the outdoors would add far more to the feeling of spirituality than a mall and block of flats. Are you *seriously* telling me the church undertook this enterprise for the spiritual benefit of the residents of SLC?

The area was urbanized to begin with. There is green space in Salt Lake City, both downtown and on the outskirts, if that is what one is looking for.

But according to President Hinckley's own explanation, the project was undertaken to safeguard the environment around Temple Square, presumably from encroaching urban blight. And yes, this does benefit those who live and work downtown, Mormon or not.

Talk to the non-Mormon mayor of Salt Lake City if you don't think this project benefits the broader community.

[Calm]

The issue that originally money given to the Church was all tithing is really irrelevant (as well as false) unless from the very beginning the Church had a rule separating tithing from being used for any other purposes save specific church related (non profit) enterprises. And considering how the Church at times has tried to implement the United Order as well as how settlements in Utah worked, I doubt that such was the case.

OTOH, if it is a more recent policy to separate tithing from for profit ventures of the Church, then leaders pointing out that currently no tithing is used for such is not disingenuous or anything but being clear about abiding by the current policy.