Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Does that mean that you are opposed to changing the traditional definition of marriage?Good catch. Of course in the case of SSM it is ok to change the meaning.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Well, I now know where it is mentioned, I am curious about why Rivers thought it was in the GP manual.Now that is interesting.
frankenstein Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Sleeper Cell, on 03 March 2011 - 04:09 PM, said: Does that mean that you are opposed to changing the traditional definition of marriage?Good catch. Of course in the case of SSM it is ok to change the meaning.not wanting to derail the post, I was vague and attempting to point out the double-standard, i.e. the double standard of saying "no we can't change a definition of marriage" and in same breathe "yes, we can change a definition homosexual so as to fit the personal agenda of making people appear as sinners."so yes, good catch in realizing I was referring to the cries of the sky is falling in reference to marriage. If we can change one definition to fit an agenda, redifine words to make people sinners, why not change words willy nilly.
TAO Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 a very ignorant and unsupportable statement to make. homosexual is being attracted to members of the same sex. Now we can always change a definition, but selective changing definitions to fits ones agenda isn't exactly kosher.It is not a sin for a person to admit that they are attracted to members of the same sex. I would dare say, it would be sin to lie about being attracted to members of the same sex. What it would be a sin would be lusting after those of the opposite sex... one can be attracted to the opposite sex, and if one resists it, one will be fine, one is not sinning, as long as one relies on God to overcome. But if you let yourself give in to those feelings, that is where the sin comes, just as the same as lust.To be quite honest, whether one is attracted or not should have little to do with real mairrage. What should matter is the personality of the other person, and what the Lord has commanded, that you and your spouse do follow it. The Lord has commanded that there be no homosexual relationships, and thus to follow him, they must be abstained from. Even if it takes your entire life. Even if you don't get married in this life - for you will be married in the next if you work hard in this life and succeed. And the Lord will be a most excellent matchmaker, I believe, if he is the one that does the choosing.
frankenstein Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 What it would be a sin would be lusting after those of the opposite sex... one can be attracted to the opposite sex, and if one resists it, one will be fine, one is not sinning, as long as one relies on God to overcome. But if you let yourself give in to those feelings, that is where the sin comes, just as the same as lust.yours and my comment are very different from what I commented on and I would say our comments are more inline with the teachings of the Church than the personal opinion shared that identifying one self as homosexual is a sin.
Obiwan Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I was reading the Law of Chastity chapter in the new Gospel Principles manual. I was a little confused about a statement on homosexuality.How does homosexuality distort loving relationships? Gays are capable of having normal loving relationships as much as straight people. Am I missing something?The answer is in the very statement.... Homosexual love while indeed a form of love does in fact "distort" every expect of it and those it effects.It is similar how the things and people that "left" of God is a "distortion" of all that is good and "right".
BCSpace Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 To self identify as a homosexual means one has given in to some degree to one's thoughts, therefore homosexuality itself is indeed a sin.Would you say to self identify as a heterosexual means that one has given in to some degree to one's thoughts in sinful lust, therefore, heterosexuality itself is therefore indeed a sin?No, because heterosexuality is not intrinsically sinful.a very ignorant and unsupportable statement to make.Actually, it's the only logical conclusion one can come to. By self-identifying as a homosexual, as opposed to merely knowing you have these attractions, one has accepted that one will cannot overcome these attractions and/or does not believe God can help and is the beginning of an obsession or concentration on same gender thoughts and feelings.It is quite supportable because I am in part paraphrasing from God Loveth His Children, the doctrinal work refered to in the CHI on the subject.
Anijen Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I was reading the Law of Chastity chapter in the new Gospel Principles manual. I was a little confused about a statement on homosexuality.How does homosexuality distort loving relationships? Gays are capable of having normal loving relationships as much as straight people. Am I missing something?How about, wickedness never was happiness.
Jason Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Huh. So what did I read?Yes, where did you in fact read it? If it really is in the Gospel Principles manual, then how about a page number?
Questing Beast Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 One of my daughters has candidly admitted to her mother and I that she finds other females sexually attractive. We didn't panic or fly into emotional fits trying to remonstrate with her. What she feels is reality, period. I have more or less repeated what Hinckley et al. have said about the difference between feelings, inclination and actions. I know that sexuality is a very malleable, changing, therefore complex thing. Like any other drive/desire, it needs to be kept within the bounds of justice. One is not just to oneself if license is allowed which reduces ones efficacious benefit to "the others". Selfishness is the core vice of addiction. No matter what that addiction is, they are all the same guilty of injustice: by not considering the welfare of others above our own wants, we give into self addictive behavior. This topic is the overarching one, under which falls sexuality and all the other drives/desires we can possibly feel....
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 How does homosexuality distort loving relationships? Gays are capable of having normal loving relationships as much as straight people. Am I missing something?LDS (as well as most Christians) believe that only a heterosexual relationship is sanctioned by God and only through a marriage between a man and a women is sexual intimacy allowed. The desire for intimacy between a husband and wife is good and from God, this desire is how we procreate and obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply. Homosexual relationships are the opposite of what God intended for us. There is no sanctioned relations between man and man or woman and woman in God's eyes, these relations are sinful just as non married heterosexuals having intimate relations are sinning. The Church has always has this stance and it is a Biblical Stance, homosexual acts are against nature and the commandments of God. While we are all allowed to choose how to live, and can choose to obey the Law of Chasity or not, just because the world decides it is ok for something to happen (premarital sex, homosexual acts, same sex marriage) doesn't mean that it no longer is sin in God's eyes. President Boyd K. Packer said in last General Conference "there are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God
california boy Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Entering a homosexual relationship and refusing to be part of a heterosexual relationship or refusing to repent will in fact deny you the blessings of a family life (for instance, children) and the saving ordinances. Temple marriage is a saving ordinance, and you can't have it if you aren't marrying someone of the opposite sex.What options does the church offer someone who is gay to give them the blessings of a family life? As far as I understand church teaching, they want someone who is gay to live by themselves their whole life, not have any deep relationships with someone of the opposite sex (Marriage to the opposite sex is no long encouraged). A relationship with someone of the opposite sex is definitely out. Therefore not have any children or family is not allowed. Live by yourself, don't date anyone, don't marry anyone, don't have kids. Sounds real appealing doesn't it. Even if it takes your entire life. Even if you don't get married in this life - for you will be married in the next if you work hard in this life and succeed. And the Lord will be a most excellent matchmaker, I believe, if he is the one that does the choosing.This idea that you will be married in the next life is of no interest to someone who is homosexual. Why would anyone who is gay want to be married to a woman for eternity. The only doctire I am aware of is the doctrine give by Joseph Smith who said the same wants and desires we have in this life will rise with us in the next. The church has nothing to offer someone who is gay except condemnation for finding someone to love. It is why I and so many others who are gay have left the church.
Sky Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Just for the record, I know of some men in the Church who are attracted to other men, but have chosen to marry a woman instead. They have families of their own and are raising kids together. They are honest with their wives about their struggle, and they somehow manage to make it work. I think open communication is the key (and avoiding acting out and pornography like the plague). I know most people would probably look down on them and think that they were not living an honest, authentic life. But I say kudos to them anyway
california boy Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Just for the record, I know of some men in the Church who are attracted to other men, but have chosen to marry a woman instead. They have families of their own and are raising kids together. They are honest with their wives about their struggle, and they somehow manage to make it work. I think open communication is the key (and avoiding acting out and pornography like the plague). I know most people would probably look down on them and think that they were not living an honest, authentic life. But I say kudos to them anyway
Rivers Posted March 6, 2011 Author Posted March 6, 2011 You were apparently confused about the manual as well. Where were you reading this actually?LDS.org. I thought it was the GP manual, but I'm not sure what I was reading. Maybe it came from the True To The Faith book.
Rivers Posted March 6, 2011 Author Posted March 6, 2011 Yes. It was in the True to the Faith Book that I read this. I remember reading this passage earlier and I looked it up online to quote it. I mistakenly believed it was in the Gospel Principles manual. Sorry for the confusion.
cinepro Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Just for the record, I know of some men in the Church who are attracted to other men, but have chosen to marry a woman instead. They have families of their own and are raising kids together. They are honest with their wives about their struggle, and they somehow manage to make it work. I think open communication is the key (and avoiding acting out and pornography like the plague). I know most people would probably look down on them and think that they were not living an honest, authentic life. But I say kudos to them anyway
kolipoki09 Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 The language about distorting relationships tracked the language in the handbook of instructions at the time. The handbook has been revised to remove that language. I suspect that the language will be gone from the next edition of Gospel Principles. http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2010/11/homosexuality-in-2010-church-handbook.htmlI miss The Narrator. I wish he wasn't banned.
Jason Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 What options does the church offer someone who is gay to give them the blessings of a family life?Well first of all, no one is "gay", at least not irrevocably. As far as I understand church teaching, they want someone who is gay to live by themselves their whole life, not have any deep relationships with someone of the opposite sex (Marriage to the opposite sex is no long encouraged). A relationship with someone of the opposite sex is definitely out. Therefore not have any children or family is not allowed. Live by yourself, don't date anyone, don't marry anyone, don't have kids. Sounds real appealing doesn't it.No, not really. The Church's teaching is simply that you shouldn't marry someone as an attempt to cure homosexual temptations, not your strawman. People suffering from same sex attraction can in fact date, marry, and have kids in the Chruch's view, as long as they are willing to really commit to their spouse and family. This idea that you will be married in the next life is of no interest to someone who is homosexual. Why would anyone who is gay want to be married to a woman for eternity.You assume that a person's sexual preference is innate and unchangeable.The only doctire I am aware of is the doctrine give by Joseph Smith who said the same wants and desires we have in this life will rise with us in the next.This was not intended as a blanket statement, and was not a direct reference to homosexual behavior or tendancies.
cinepro Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Well first of all, no one is "gay", at least not irrevocably. Just curious, but would you consider yourself irrevocably heterosexual? Outside of a prison environment, of course.
Jason Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Just curious, but would you consider yourself irrevocably heterosexual?No.
zelder Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Just curious, but would you consider yourself irrevocably heterosexual? Outside of a prison environment, of course.I don't think very many people are irrevocably hetero or homosexual. Especially not young people. What we think about and our environment has a lot of power and influence on what becomes arousing to us. You mentioned prison jokingly but its a good example an environment where people engage in homosexuality where they otherwise would not. I find it difficult to believe that sexual orientation cannot be controlled or manipulated by ourselves and our environment. I figure that if we don't control it during our youth then it might be a lifelong battle thereafter. I suppose that if someone struggles with this then it might be more the environment they grew up in rather than their DNA.
california boy Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Well first of all, no one is "gay", at least not irrevocably. No, not really. The Church's teaching is simply that you shouldn't marry someone as an attempt to cure homosexual temptations, not your strawman. People suffering from same sex attraction can in fact date, marry, and have kids in the Chruch's view, as long as they are willing to really commit to their spouse and family. You assume that a person's sexual preference is innate and unchangeable.This was not intended as a blanket statement, and was not a direct reference to homosexual behavior or tendancies.What is the point of your post Jason? To tell me I am not gay and I will want to marry a woman for eternity?? That you know what counsel I have been given by my bishop, stake president as well as counsel from general authorities?Are you completely unaware that the church's position is that they don't know whether someone is born gay? Since you didn't look at the link, here are a couple quotes from men you might recongnize.
california boy Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 I don't think very many people are irrevocably hetero or homosexual. Especially not young people. What we think about and our environment has a lot of power and influence on what becomes arousing to us. You mentioned prison jokingly but its a good example an environment where people engage in homosexuality where they otherwise would not. I find it difficult to believe that sexual orientation cannot be controlled or manipulated by ourselves and our environment. I figure that if we don't control it during our youth then it might be a lifelong battle thereafter. I suppose that if someone struggles with this then it might be more the environment they grew up in rather than their DNA.I grew up in an active Mormon family. None of my friends were gay. I doubt very much that my family environment made me gay. The church and my family did everything they could to recruit me to the heterosexual side. But every since I was 12 years old, I knew I was attracted to guys and had little interest in girls. You might find this blog interesting. It is not scientific, but it is revealing.Born This WayThere is a difference between engaging in a homosexual act such as what happens in prison and someone who is gay. If you were to ask those men in prison that commit homosexual acts if they were gay, many would say no. You aren't gay because of gay sex acts any more than you are straight by engaging in straight sex acts. I would agree that engaging in gay sex acts could be controlled or manipulated. There is absolutely no scientific proof that you can change what sex you are hardwired to be attracted to. Beleive me I tried. I like many others thought that if I just got married, I could change my orientation. And like so many others, found out that is not how these things work. It is why the church no longer recommends this course of action.
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