Why is this in the Gospel Principles manuel?

[california boy]

In exactly the same way any unmarried Saint would live: celebate.

It's not as if homosexuals are the only ones who are counseled to remain chaste.

There are thousands of Saints in the later years of life who have lived chaste lives without a spouse. Homosexuals are not singled out for any punitive act by their being "denied" sexual relationships.

Lehi

Yeah I have heard this misconception before. It is not the same at all. I have a daughter that is still single but here are the differences.

1. She is allowed to date those that she is attracted to.

I was told that since dating is ment to lead to marriage, then I should not date members of the same sex. Actually I was also counseled to not date those of the opposite sex either. It was unfair to lead them on thinking dating might lead to marriage.

2. She is still hoping to get married.

I have no hope to get married

3. She can live with room mates of the same sex.

I wascounseled that it was inappropriate for me to room with either same sex or opposit sex people

4. She attends a singles ward that is specifically designed for her to meet other singles in hopes of finding an eternal companion.

No singles ward if you are gay.

5. My brothers and sisters supports her and includes her in all family activities. They even introduce her to guys that she might like.

My brothrs and sisters do not nvited to family activities because I am gay.

6. When she dies, she is promised to be able to marry someone that she is attracted to for all eternity.

I have no hope of being able to be married to someone I am attracted to. Only to marry a woman for eternity. Something I have no interest in.

You seem to be one of those members that think it is all about sex. It is not. Marriage is not just about sex. It is about sharing a life with someone that you love. Yeah I know this will not do anything to change your mind. You would prefer to think it is just about being asked to be celebate.

[LeSellers]

Yeah I have heard this misconception before. It is not the same at all.

Any difference is one of quantity, not of quality.

1. She is allowed to date those that she is attracted to.

I was told that since dating is ment to lead to marriage, then I should not date members of the same sex. Actually I was also counseled to not date those of the opposite sex either. It was unfair to lead them on thinking dating might lead to marriage.

Yes, dating is designed to lead to marriage. You can't marry a man (pointless), and you would not want to marry a woman. So dating is not useful.

3. She can live with room mates of the same sex.

I wascounseled that it was inappropriate for me to room with either same sex or opposit sex people

Avoid the appearance of evil.

4. She attends a singles ward that is specifically designed for her to meet other singles in hopes of finding an eternal companion.

No singles ward if you are gay.

No point to it.

5. My brothers and sisters supports her and includes her in all family activities. They even introduce her to guys that she might like.

My brothrs and sisters do not nvited to family activities because I am gay.

Sorry about that, but it's not a church thing, it's just human nature (which is not condoning their actions

[sjdawg]

Any difference is one of quantity, not of quality.

Yes, dating is designed to lead to marriage. You can't marry a man (pointless), and you would not want to marry a woman. So dating is not useful.

Avoid the appearance of evil.

No point to it.

Sorry about that, but it's not a church thing, it's just human nature (which is not condoning their actions

[TAO]

It is very easy to sit and tell people that homosexuality is something they can overcome without ever having gone through that experience. I have kids, I have a wife. They are a major factor in my life and my happiness. I believe very few people would ever make a "choice" to be gay. Within the LDS church there is very little hope in this life for a gay person. (They can enjoy some judgement and condemnation though)

sdjawg, there isn't all that much hope for people with Autism either - marriages are hard things. But we still do them. We still try. We still hope and go for our goals.

Frank is right... Ether 12:27 is what will lead to the light =). It's one of my favorite verses, that it is =D.

[TAO]

1. She is allowed to date those that she is attracted to.

I was told that since dating is ment to lead to marriage, then I should not date members of the same sex. Actually I was also counseled to not date those of the opposite sex either. It was unfair to lead them on thinking dating might lead to marriage.

Attraction isn't what dating is about. Attraction isn't what mairrage is about either.

A blind person wouldn't care a blink about looks, so nah, attraction isn't it. Companionship, Children, and Command are the reasons, that they are.

2. She is still hoping to get married.

I have no hope to get married

You have a capability CB. The only problem is your feelings of hopelessness are getting in the way. You have hope. You always have hope. You can always turn around. One step at a time. But it takes effort. It means not submitting to this hopelessness. It means realizing, that you will make or break your own ability to turn on it if you wish.

3. She can live with room mates of the same sex.

I wascounseled that it was inappropriate for me to room with either same sex or opposit sex people

Is room-mating all that important 0.o... I don't think it matters all that much, tbh.

4. She attends a singles ward that is specifically designed for her to meet other singles in hopes of finding an eternal companion.

No singles ward if you are gay.

There will be singles ward once you are able to quash that hopelessness. Once you bring yourself to realize that you can marry a lady because the Lord would like you to, singles ward will be open. Look at mairrage as a service, I think. A kind and loving service. Not for you, but for someone else.

5. My brothers and sisters supports her and includes her in all family activities. They even introduce her to guys that she might like.

My brothrs and sisters do not nvited to family activities because I am gay.

This stinks. I wish they would treat you better... perhaps you could just 'show up' at one sometime... if you don't think they'd mind.

6. When she dies, she is promised to be able to marry someone that she is attracted to for all eternity.

I have no hope of being able to be married to someone I am attracted to. Only to marry a woman for eternity. Something I have no interest in.

Get the idea of attraction out of your mind. You do not need to be attracted to your spouse. What you need is the will to be able to fully sacrifice yourself to her. I am not attracted to the person whom I like, whom I am considering dating. But I know she is the right person, with the right personality, the person I need to make me whole. The Lord requires a female for me. So I found one. I searched long and hard - and if I lose her - I will have a tough time finding another suitable women because I am picky. So I am going to try really hard to get her. Because I know she's the right one.

You seem to be one of those members that think it is all about sex. It is not. Marriage is not just about sex. It is about sharing a life with someone that you love. Yeah I know this will not do anything to change your mind. You would prefer to think it is just about being asked to be celebate.

Mairrage isn't at all about sex. But it is about children. And it is about the Lord's commands. Sex is nothing, truly, in the Lord's eyes, I believe. He cares about children. He cares about happiness. He tries to balance those. He has given us a commandment, it is our job to follow it, and if we do, I promise you, that he will be waiting there to shake your hand and say well done thou faithful servant, who endured until the end.

This will be your greatest trial. But we all have greatest trials - mine is just different than yours. Not necessarily easier, not necessarily harder, but meant specifically for me. Your weakness was meant for you before you were born physically. The Lord gave it to you to teach you something, but don't let that weakness get the better of you. You have the capability of overcoming it. You've just got to choose to.

[Sky]

TAO

[sjdawg]

Get the idea of attraction out of your mind. You do not need to be attracted to your spouse. What you need is the will to be able to fully sacrifice yourself to her. I am not attracted to the person whom I like, whom I am considering dating. But I know she is the right person, with the right personality, the person I need to make me whole. The Lord requires a female for me. So I found one. I searched long and hard - and if I lose her - I will have a tough time finding another suitable women because I am picky. So I am going to try really hard to get her. Because I know she's the right one.

Terrible idea.

[semlogo]

Terrible idea.

Agreed. That's a set up for failure.

[frankenstein]

Get the idea of attraction out of your mind. You do not need to be attracted to your spouse. What you need is the will to be able to fully sacrifice yourself to her. I am not attracted to the person whom I like, whom I am considering dating. But I know she is the right person, with the right personality, the person I need to make me whole. The Lord requires a female for me. So I found one. I searched long and hard - and if I lose her - I will have a tough time finding another suitable women because I am picky. So I am going to try really hard to get her. Because I know she's the right one.

ah youth, I admire your stance, but as others have stated attraction and sex just for the sake of having sex are very important to maintaining a healthy marriage.

[Jason]

Well I guess my definition of being in love is more than the kind of love looking at a movie magazine and fantasizing about what it would be like to actually meet a person. I would like to be able to do such simple things as dating them or rooming with them.

Again, the Church doesn't say you can't date "anyone" - it merely says you shouldn't date someone of the same gender. The Church doesn't say you can't get married - it says you shouldn't marry someone in an effort to overcome your same sex attraction.

How actually do you see even a relationship or love forming given the paramaters the church outlined to me about what was proper and what was not?

The path to a loving relationship for those suffering with same sex attraction is to overcome your unnacceptable desires. Give up on the idea of finding joy in something the Lord says you can't find joy in, and work towards developing something that you can find joy in. If you can't quite acheive it in this life then you have the Lord's promise that all righteous desires will eventually be satisfied in the life to come.

This is the same path anyone ensarned in sinful desires must follow.

[SilverKnight]

Again, the Church doesn't say you can't date "anyone" - it merely says you shouldn't date someone of the same gender.

So besides your own gender, and the opposite gender, what does that leave? Animals? Mannequins?

The Church doesn't say you can't get married - it says you shouldn't marry someone in an effort to overcome your same sex attraction.

The only recently began saying that, after many years of counseling homosexuals to get married as a form of therapy. Needless to say many broken marriages resulted from that bit of horrendously poor advice.

The path to a loving relationship for those suffering with same sex attraction is to overcome your unnacceptable desires.

It is pretty much an undisputed medical fact that such desires can never be overcome. And attempts to do so result in profound anxiety and misery for the person attempting such.

How long would it take for you to overcome your heterosexual desires and finally enter a loving relationship with another man?

Give up on the idea of finding joy in something the Lord says you can't find joy in, and work towards developing something that you can find joy in.

Except just as many homosexuals as heterosexuals do find lasting joy and happiness with their partner. Your statement is a simple ignorant assertion that is proven wrong by the mountain of real evidence to the contrary.

If you can't quite acheive it in this life then you have the Lord's promise that all righteous desires will eventually be satisfied in the life to come.

What if the Lord promised youm that in the hereafter, your sinful heterosexual desires would be overcome by the proper and godly attraction to other men?

Would you be tremendously interested in living a life of loneliness and misery to achieve a reward that sounds a lot like more punishment?

[Jason]

So besides your own gender, and the opposite gender, what does that leave? Animals? Mannequins?

Did the Church counsel him not to date someone of the opposite gender? Because I recall him saying the Church said he couldn't room with someone of the opposite gender, but nothing about not dating a woman.

The only recently began saying that, after many years of counseling homosexuals to get married as a form of therapy. Needless to say many broken marriages resulted from that bit of horrendously poor advice.

Undoubtably there were some people this was bad advice for, but I wonder how many times this advice proved valuable and succeeded in helping someone overcome their unwanted desires?

It is pretty much an undisputed medical fact that such desires can never be overcome.

No it isn't. There are in fact many people disputing this supposed "fact", including trained therapists, psychologists, doctors, and even some gay rights activists.

How long would it take for you to overcome your heterosexual desires and finally enter a loving relationship with another man?

I'm not sure, but I have no intention to try.

Except the vast majority of homosexuals do find lasting joy and happiness with their partner.

You have followed the vast majority of homosexuals through their afterlife to the final judgement? Lasting for the LDS means "into the next life", not just this temporary mortal situation.

I am curious as to whether you have a source for your claim for "the vast majority" finding happiness in this life too. CFR.

What if the Lord promised youm that in the hereafter, your sinful heterosexual desires would be overcome by the proper and godly attraction to other men?

Would you be tremendously interested in living a life of loneliness and misery to achieve a reward that sounds a lot like more punishment?

What one is "tremendously interested" in doing and what is worth doing can be two very different things. Nearly every person has desires in this life that must be curbed and controlled with the promise that we eventually will suffer no more from them.

[semlogo]

Undoubtably there were some people this was bad advice for, but I wonder how many times this advice proved valuable and succeeded in helping someone overcome their unwanted desires?

You can't "cure" "the gay" by getting married to someone of the opposite sex. They only way such advice could be helpful is if the gay person marries someone who is asexual, and they're content to live out a loveless, platonic marriage. Sort of a roommate arrangement.

There's a reason why the church stopped giving that advice and now tells gay people NOT to get married at all.

[semlogo]

No it isn't. There are in fact many people disputing this supposed "fact", including trained therapists, psychologists, doctors, and even some gay rights activists.

Only crackpots. No reputable therapist, psychologist or doctor would make that claim.

[Rivers]

I don't know how gay lds members do it. You would have to have a VERY strong testimony to be a be gay member of the church.

[semlogo]

I don't know how gay lds members do it. You would have to have a VERY strong testimony to be a be gay member of the church.

Agreed. I wouldn't be strong enough to remain a faithful gay LDS member. I doubt most people would.

Imagine, as a straight man, being told that you can never experience romantic love of any sort in your entire life with a woman. And as a reward, in the next life you will marry a man. That wouldn't work for me.

[Damien the Leper]

This is subject to individual interpretation and perception. I am able to simply disregard such statements due to the obvious bias and lack of intellectual integrity found therein. Heterosexuals and Homosexuals can be just as equally promiscuous. However, I will say it is appalling how sexual males can be and their cravings for sexual gratification is just as appalling. Furthermore, I will stand by the academic/spiritual integrity that refutes the Romans 1 verses, Leviticus 20, and malakoi and arsenokoitai. The statements made by Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness are laughable at best and spiritually/emotionally damaging at worst. In order to avoid a pot/kettle situation, lets refrain from pointing out the flaws of one sexual orientation in favor of another. That line of thinking is 'drenched in sin' and ignorance.

[Damien the Leper]

I don't know how gay lds members do it. You would have to have a VERY strong testimony to be a be gay member of the church.

I know of a young gay couple who attends the LDS church regularly...and do so as a couple. The Bishop is much more progressive in his views and so it seems the general congregation is as well. The membership of the LDS church is far from harmonious in its general theological and/or moral views than many are willing to observe. These members who dissent from the status quo get little 'air play' and for the most-part that is their own choice. I respect their willingness to follow in the rebelliously loving, pluralistic and egalitarian style of Jesus Christ.

Side note: The couple mentioned above is definitely a rarity and I commend them for remaining faithful...not by the church's humanly flawed standards but by their willingness to continue to serve God as a loving couple with Jesus Christ at the center of their relationship. Those who choose to respond to this, please leave out the typical LDS absolutist philosophies. They need not apply.

[ELF1024]

I don't know how gay lds members do it. You would have to have a VERY strong testimony to be a be gay member of the church.

It is for this exact reason that I don't feel that the church has any business sending Missionaries to convert homosexuals. The Church avoids sending missionaries to Jews and to Muslims, I see no logical reason for that not to be extended to the homosexual community.

In my opinion doing missionary work with homosexuals does more harm (to both the Church and the person in question) than good.

Furthermore, I will stand by the academic/spiritual integrity that refutes the Romans 1 verses, Leviticus 20, and malakoi and arsenokoitai. The statements made by Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness are laughable at best and spiritually/emotionally damaging at worst.

Statements like this further my opinion that it is a waste of time trying to have a dialogue with a person who finds nothing wrong with the behavior. There is no way you will convince them that they are wrong. It is a waste of time to try, and and there are plenty of other people who have not allowed themselves to be tainted with this evil.

I see no reason to believe that they will accept basic bibical truths in this life, so the best we can hope for is to save them in the next when they are no so fully confounded by their bodies lusts and desires.

If the field is white and ready to harvest there is no reason to loiter in areas that are not ready for harvesting.

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

- George Bernard Shaw

[ELF1024]

Agreed. I wouldn't be strong enough to remain a faithful gay LDS member. I doubt most people would.

Imagine, as a straight man, being told that you can never experience romantic love of any sort in your entire life with a woman. And as a reward, in the next life you will marry a man. That wouldn't work for me.

Romantic love is not something that has been a reason for marriage for very long. Arranged marriages were the de-facto norm for centuries.

[Damien the Leper]

It is for this exact reason that I don't feel that the church has any business sending Missionaries to convert homosexuals. The Church avoids sending missionaries to Jews and to Muslims, I see no logical reason for that not to be extended to the homosexual community.

In my opinion doing missionary work with homosexuals does more harm (to both the Church and the person in question) than good.

Statements like this further my opinion that it is a waste of time trying to have a dialogue with a person who finds nothing wrong with the behavior. There is no way you will convince them that they are wrong. It is a waste of time to try, and and there are plenty of other people who have not allowed themselves to be tainted with this evil.

I see no reason to believe that they will accept basic bibical truths in this life, so the best we can hope for is to save them in the next when they are no so fully confounded by their bodies lusts and desires.

If the field is white and ready to harvest there is no reason to loiter in areas that are not ready for harvesting.

The exact same could be said in reverse. "Modern Revelation" hasn't enhanced any moral teaching coming from the specific cases I stated above. In fact, they are the opposite. There is no way anyone can convince you that you are wrong either. You fail to make a valid point in your post.

This reminds me of a speech that I gave for one of my religion classes this semester. I titled it "My Religion is Most Correct: A Study of the Abuses of Elitist Theology and the Churches that Promulgate Them". In the speech, I point out the narrow and ignorant perspective of "I know that you have truth but come and let us add to that truth". This is a gross, nauseating and pretentious position to hold. Many would argue that it is what Jesus did when dealing with the Pharisees. Far from it! Jesus was correcting the Jews at the time for maintaining only a strict adherence to the Law without embracing the revolutionary loving Spirit of the Law.

[ELF1024]

The exact same could be said in reverse. "Modern Revelation" hasn't enhanced any moral teaching coming from the specific cases I stated above. In fact, they are the opposite. There is no way anyone can convince you that you are wrong either. You fail to make a valid point in your post.

This reminds me of a speech that I gave for one of my religion classes this semester. I titled it "My Religion is Most Correct: A Study of the Abuses of Elitist Theology and the Churches that Promulgate Them". In the speech, I point out the narrow and ignorant perspective of "I know that you have truth but come and let us add to that truth". This is a gross, nauseating and pretentious position to hold. Many would argue that it is what Jesus did when dealing with the Pharisees. Far from it! Jesus was correcting the Jews at the time for maintaining only a strict adherence to the Law without embracing the revolutionary loving Spirit of the Law.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Damien the Leper]

Thank you for proving my point.

Thank you for proving mine as well. It is most unfortunate, friend.

[ELF1024]

Thank you for proving mine as well. It is most unfortunate, friend.

The difference is I have no interest in trying to convince you of my point of view. I simply would wish that we would leave the homosexuals alone. We do more harm to them by trying to convince them we are correct. You cannot save those who refuse to see that what they are doing is wrong.

I say live and let live.

[Jason]

The difference is I have no interest in trying to convince you of my point of view. I simply would wish that we would leave the homosexuals alone. We do more harm to them by trying to convince them we are correct. You cannot save those who refuse to see that what they are doing is wrong.

I say live and let live.

How do you know they will all refuse to see what they are doing is wrong before you try?